Struggling to know if my water is ruining my beer!!!

[Finlandbrews]

Thanks, I will ask as many of these questions but ammonia is important question to ask!! If I understand well alkalinity, carbonate and bicarbonate are the most important ions to focus on and understand? How do these carbonate and bicarbonate form after the RO treatment, are they added or do they build up based on the composition of water after RO treatment? Also, Murphy laboratory measured 6.06 but I know from my local water tests that the pH of my water should be 8.9 as this was measured in two buildings on the island (the hotel and the pilot house). Can we know based on the data provided to me by Murphy and that my pH is 8.9 what my alkalinity, carbonate and bicarbonate could be?

 

[ajdelange]

If I understand well alkalinity, carbonate and bicarbonate are the most important ions to focus on and understand?

In drinking water alkalinity is caused by bicarbonate with a small contribution from carbonate. Those must be under control of good beer is to be made. Most of the alkalinity has to be neutralized. This means converting bicarbonate and carbonate to CO2.

How do these carbonate and bicarbonate form after the RO treatment, are they added or do they build up based on the composition of water after RO treatment?

In my understanding based on your previous posts they are added by dosing the RO water with chalk. Chalk (calcium carbonate) does not dissolve in water and so they add acid. The amount of acid they use determines the pH and the relative amounts of carbonate, bicarbonate and carbonic acid (CO2) in the water all derived in this case from the added chalk. If too much sulfuric acid is used the pH will be too low and the alkalinity will be too low. Neither of these would be desirable in terms of protecting the distrubution system from eventual corrosion so I suspect the low pH reading from Murphy. Either Murphy bobbled the reading or the plant operator slipped when dosing sulfuric acid.

Also, Murphy laboratory measured 6.06 but I know from my local water tests that the pH of my water should be 8.9 as this was measured in two buildings on the island (the hotel and the pilot house). Can we know based on the data provided to me by Murphy and that my pH is 8.9 what my alkalinity, carbonate and bicarbonate could be?

We can guess but we must assume that Murphy's measurements (pH and alkalinity) are accurate and the that the plant did in fact slip and add more sulfuric acid than was intended at the time of the sample you sent in. Based on those assumptions your alkalinity would be about 60 were the same amount of chalk dosed but with only enough acid to lower pH to 8.9.


I'll note that when your alkalinity is modest like this you can simply eliminate its effect without even knowing what it is. You just do what I strongly suspect the plant may have done: add more acid until the pH is low enough that the effective alkalinity is 0. This would be mash pH in brewing. To do this, of course, you need a pH meter.

 

[mabrungard]

Unless the water piping system is extremely long, NO water utility adds ammonia to their water to create chloramines. Treatment by chloramines is more costly since they are adding another chemical and the resulting chloramines content has a significantly lower kill efficiency than straight chlorine.

Chloramines are used when the source water has dissolved organics that would react with straight chlorine. Chloramines are safer in that case.

If the water is RO, there is no little chance that the water has ammonia or is treated with chloramines.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Unless the water piping system is extremely long, NO water utility adds ammonia to their water to create chloramines. Treatment by chloramines is more costly since they are adding another chemical and the resulting chloramines content has a significantly lower kill efficiency than straight chlorine.

Chloramines are used when the source water has dissolved organics that would react with straight chlorine. Chloramines are safer in that case.

If the water is RO, there is no little chance that the water has ammonia or is treated with chloramines.

The water piping is about 100 meters from the RO plant to my house and this plant treats about 4000 cubic litres per year. Can't the RO treatment of Baltic sea water leave dissolved organics so that ammonia would née to be used?

 

[mabrungard]

Dissolved Organics typically have a relatively large molecular diameter and they don't pass through the membrane in a significant concentration.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Dissolved Organics typically have a relatively large molecular diameter and they don't pass through the membrane in a significant concentration.

Ok great!

 

[Finlandbrews]

I didn't manage to get much information as the person who treats the water treats it by instructions given to him a long time ago and doesn't grasp everything on water composition. Could you comment on these information I got below:

- the end pH of the water which is released for consumption is 7.55 and the Baltic sea water pH is 7.2.

- they said natrium hypochlorite (I think it showed that it contains 10-15% of chlorine) is used and no ammonia is used. They said the chlorine concentration is planned so that 0.2/0.3 ppm is in the water when released for consumption and the end chlorine level should be 0.1/0.2 when getting out from tap.

- after sand filtration and chalk(caco3) filtration (btw is chalk process a filtration process or a process to give hardness to water for protecting the pipes from erosion once released) the water pH was 8.57. They said it can vary sometimes but the change is rather low. Acid sulfuric is then used to lower the pH from 8.57 to 7.55. Also this final pH can be different although variations are low.

-Something I found very surprising is that in 2015 when they made the last test from the hotel which is literally 50 meters from the release of the RO water, the pH measured was 8.9 and the operating person of the RO system said "pH should raise, but that pH measured was way higher than we want (although no target indicated) because of uncalibrated meter (very strange in my opinion... ).

-Also, he explained that calcium sulfate is added for taste as I believe the calcium and sulfate levels are so low that it should be added. I then asked about what concentration of CaSo4 is added or what are the target concentration for calcium and sulfate and this could not be answered. At some point after, he said that Caso4 is actually added through the chalk process which got me very confused...

- also he said out of the water taken from the sea 2/3 of the water volume is released back into the sea.

- no data regarding raw water composition and target water composition for release to consumption!

No relevant info could be extracted regarding alkalinity and hardness targets (concentration targets).

- I heard yesterday that one person in the village said he doesn't drink his water from the tap because of a mold taste. Another person who treats the waste (****) said that he thinks pH of water is too high (I don't know the relevance and what is meant by too high pH from that person but it seems it is related to efficient processing of wastewater) For me the taste of the water is not mold, it is more like chlorine taste but I find the aroma and taste slightly less strong now that outdoor temp is in the freezing range compare to in summer and I find the mouthfeel of the water more round than on the mainland, can this be related to high sodium and chloride concentrations?

Funny anecdote was that in the old days (30 years ago) the island was using distillation for treating the sea water thanks to a 32kw engine and he said it didn't work.

 

[Finlandbrews]

I just spent half an hour calibrating my cheap pH and I think I've been relatively successful with 0.1/0.2 pH big maximum of margin error. I know it is a big gap but I believe it gave me a good indication of my tap water. This cheap pH meter is normally a 3 points calibration but I calibrated it at 6.86 in PH 7 liquid solution and then at 4.00 in pH 4 liquid solution and I retested measurements 3 times in each of these solutions after calibration. I got 4.07 at 4 and 6.98 at pH 7 and I tested my tap water and a bottled water and this is what I wanted to ask now because the result is rather surprising to me compare to the information which I had and I thought was correct. The RO plant said it is releasing the water at 7.55 pH and now I tested it and it stopped at 6.88 pH from my tap. Strange enough this level because I understood from the RO plant operator that the pH should actually raise slightly. On the other hand, the Murphy laboratory in UK had measured my pH at 6.06. My question is that can these data follow a logic? Can they be relatively accurate? Also I tested a commercial bottled water open 2 days ago which seems to be distilled as it has no minerals concentration indicated on the bottle and a I got a stable 6.25 pH measurement reading, is that possible?

I still have to find out what are the calcium concentrations in the water because the RO operator said we re adding calcium and sulfate for taste but these were measured by Murphy and son at 2 ppm for CA and 8 ppm for sulfate! So either they disappear or they are added in such low concentration that maybe they don't affect the taste and could be why I get a not-regular-taste from tap compare to other tap waters in finland?

 

[ajdelange]

- the end pH of the water which is released for consumption is 7.55 and the Baltic sea water pH is 7.2.

Will comment on these in a bit.

- they said natrium hypochlorite (I think it showed that it contains 10-15% of chlorine) is used and no ammonia is used.

I would have been very surprised were it any thing more complicated than that or if it involved chlorine gas. The use of the hypochlorite is considered the safest approach but I always remember that the largest accidental release of chlorine gas in a US plant was caused when a trucker accidentally dumped his load of sulfuric acid into a hypochlorite storage tank.

They said the chlorine concentration is planned so that 0.2/0.3 ppm is in the water when released for consumption and the end chlorine level should be 0.1/0.2 when getting out from tap.

That is pretty low and should be easily removed just by letting the water stand as the sniff test in the Sticky should reveal.

- after sand filtration and chalk(caco3) filtration (btw is chalk process a filtration process or a process to give hardness to water for protecting the pipes from erosion once released) the water pH was 8.57.

It can actually be both. The water in passing through a compacted bed of limestone (chalk) particles will dissolve some of it thus increasing the pH, alkalinity and calcium hardness. At the same time particulate matter will deposit on the top of the bed (assuming it is fed from the top). If the bed is then back washed, as it most probably is, that matter will be washed away.

They said it can vary sometimes but the change is rather low.

Some variation would be expected. This would be caused by differences in flow rate and bed compaction (in other words, by the length of time the water is in contact with the chalk) and by the carbon dioxide content of the water.

Acid sulfuric is then used to lower the pH from 8.57 to 7.55. Also this final pH can be different although variations are low.

The pH of 8.57 suggests, but does not say with certainty, that the treated water will have a calcium content of 11.4 mg/L and an alkalinity of about 30 ppm as CaCO3. This assumes that the water coming into the lime bed has had all the calcium and bicarbonate from the sea water removed and that the water in the bed came to thermodynamic equilibrium which it definitely does not do. With this and the fact that the RO system is not perfect the actual numbers will doubtless be a little higher than this.

Adding enough sulfuric acid to reduce the pH to 7.55 only requires a tiny amount and does not change the alkalinity very much - only to 28. I don't see why they do this as even without the sulfuric acid the water is under saturated with respect to CaCO3 and won't afford any protection to piping. Adding the acid only makes it less so.

I believe the WHO recommended upper limit for pH is 8.5 so perhaps that's why they do it.

-Something I found very surprising is that in 2015 when they made the last test from the hotel which is literally 50 meters from the release of the RO water, the pH measured was 8.9 and the operating person of the RO system said "pH should raise, but that pH measured was way higher than we want (although no target indicated) because of uncalibrated meter (very strange in my opinion... ).

A measurement with an uncalibrated meter is worthless.

-Also, he explained that calcium sulfate is added for taste as I believe the calcium and sulfate levels are so low that it should be added. I then asked about what concentration of CaSo4 is added or what are the target concentration for calcium and sulfate and this could not be answered. At some point after, he said that Caso4 is actually added through the chalk process which got me very confused...

He was referring to the fact that calcium carbonate (limestone/chalk) reacts with sulfuric acid releasing CO2 to the atmosphere and leaving calcium and sulfate ions in the water. The reaction is:

Ca++ + CO3-- + 2H+ + SO4-- ----> CO2 +H2O + Ca++ + SO4--

This is the same result that would be obtained by adding calcium sulfate (CaSO4) to the water.

So it appears that the chalk and acid treatment is for taste rather than pipe protection. As the same effect could be attained by dosing gypsum without having to deal with hazardous sulfuric acid we wonder why they do it that way and suppose it must be to get the filtering that the limestone bed affords.

- also he said out of the water taken from the sea 2/3 of the water volume is released back into the sea.

33% recovery is easily realized and as there should be no problem with returning a brine concentrated by 50% back to the sea there is no reason to push the plant to higher recovery.

- no data regarding raw water composition and target water composition for release to consumption!

From the rough calculations above we conclude that the water composition would be something like

Calcium: 11.4 mg/L (22.8 ppm as CaCO3)
Alkalinity: 28 ppm as CaCO3
Sulfate: 2 mg/L

and recognize that all these could be a bit higher given that some ions will make it through the RO membranes. These are not terribly out of line with what the Murphy report showed. In particular its higher sulfate level and lower pH and alkalinity numbers are all consistent with an over dose of sulfuric acid at the time of that sample.

The main conclusion to be drawn from all this is that the water is essentially RO water. In planning brews with it you can consider it ion free (with respect to alkalinity and hardness - not sodium and chloride!).

- I heard yesterday that one person in the village said he doesn't drink his water from the tap because of a mold taste.

If you have that problem an activated charcoal filter (which is often used to 'polish' water at the outputs of water treatment plants) should solve it for you.

Another person who treats the waste (****) said that he thinks pH of water is too high (I don't know the relevance and what is meant by too high pH from that person

In the States we would be tempted to say "Well he don't know ****" but I guess we can't say that here.

but it seems it is related to efficient processing of wastewater)

Probably has to do with the pH his bacteria like. He should be able to adjust pH into a more favorable (lower?) range by dosing acid.

For me the taste of the water is not mold, it is more like chlorine taste but I find the aroma and taste slightly less strong now that outdoor temp is in the freezing range compare to in summer

That is suggestive of something organic. I would definitely try a carbon filter or one of those pitcher things that contains a carbon filter.

and I find the mouthfeel of the water more round than on the mainland, can this be related to high sodium and chloride concentrations?

Brewers add chloride to beers to enhance the mouthfeel and often describe the effect as giving a round quality to the beer. So yes, definitely.

 

[ajdelange]

The RO plant said it is releasing the water at 7.55 pH and now I tested it and it stopped at 6.88 pH from my tap.

pH is, as is everything else measured relative to accepted standards which are, in this case, buffer solutions. You are taking pH measurements and the plant is taking pH measurements. For valid comparisons both of you have to be calibrating properly using acceptable (freshly made with DI water) buffers. And your meters must both be capable of holding calibrations for as long as necessary to get the measurements. This may be relevant here as you mention that the plant sometimes takes measurements without calibrating. For tips on how to mange this process see:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

In that post a stability test is described. If your meter can't pass the stability test it is really not to be trusted.

Strange enough this level because I understood from the RO plant operator that the pH should actually raise slightly. On the other hand, the Murphy laboratory in UK had measured my pH at 6.06. My question is that can these data follow a logic? Can they be relatively accurate?

There is a logical explanation that I have offered before: The sulfuric acid dosing controller is defective or not set up properly such that it sometimes dispenses more sulfuric acid than it should. This explains the low pH, high sulfate and low alkalinity values in the Murphy test and your low pH reading but there are other explanations too.

Also I tested a commercial bottled water open 2 days ago which seems to be distilled as it has no minerals concentration indicated on the bottle and a I got a stable 6.25 pH measurement reading, is that possible?

It is entirely possible for distilled water to have a pH as low as 6.25.

I still have to find out what are the calcium concentrations in the water because the RO operator said we re adding calcium and sulfate for taste but these were measured by Murphy and son at 2 ppm for CA and 8 ppm for sulfate!

In the report you posted in #23 Calcium is reported at 8 and sulfate at 12.

So either they disappear or they are added in such low concentration that maybe they don't affect the taste and could be why I get a not-regular-taste from tap compare to other tap waters in finland?

At either level they aren't going to have much of an effect on taste.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Thanks a lot ajdelange! Super helpful!!! I have other comments and questions after your answers.

You referred to chlorine of 0.2/0.3 ppm to be low. I would still need to make a test on that as this was the information given to me. I wanted to ask can that threshold be tasted by humans when drinking?

Also another HBT member wrote that for brewing purposes, that concentration of chlorine is way to high and should be well Below ppb not to affect taste of my final beer, is that coherent information to your knowledge?

Is there a method to calculate the time it will take for "evaporation" of 0.2 ppm chlorine if I leave my water to sit in my mash Tun? I believe it depends on my vessel shape, water volume, atmospheric pressure, temperature outside and as well of my water?

I'm asking this just to know if it would make sense and be practical to leave the water to sit outside (now it won't be possible because it is freezing but for the summer it could be useful).

One of my family member opened a tap from the house which was last in use a month earlier and said that the smell was like mold which means a bad odor is caught when water stagnate! Is that normal? To that I wonder if the low pH of the water couldn't be responsible for catching some dirty stuff along the pipes? As discussed, the water is released from the plant at 7.55 and measured in my tap at 6.90... One very strange thing is actually that the RO plant operator had also said that in the past he used to add sulfuric acid before the water was going through the chalk but realized it was making the chalk filtration less efficient and therefore decided to add sulfuric acid after the chalk filtration instead (I don't know whom decided actually but I know the contact person of the authority which is controlling the water and is responsible to give corrective measures in case something is not executed properly).

What means when you say the water is under saturated with respect to caco3: do you mean it can be corrosive and if so how do you know that?

Regarding lowering the pH to be lowered from 8.57 because of WHO I'm not sure because I got a report from the water I get on the mainland and it says that the recommendation for pH should be in the range of 6.9 to 9.5 and this is according to the Decree from the Finnish ministry of social affairs and health relating to the quality and monitoring of water for human consumption 461/2000.

 

[Finlandbrews]

I'm not yet going to buy an RO as I will test charcoal filter and letting the water sit and see if it can improve my beer considerably but I wanted to get your opinion on these two products if they are any good or if some better products should be considered. My budget will be below 300$.

View attachment 1478637077070.jpg

 

[ajdelange]

You referred to chlorine of 0.2/0.3 ppm to be low. I would still need to make a test on that as this was the information given to me. I wanted to ask can that threshold be tasted by humans when drinking?

That depends on the human to some extent. Do you taste or smell it when drawing a glass of water from the tap? Many people would be able to at that level but many would not.

Also another HBT member wrote that for brewing purposes, that concentration of chlorine is way to high and should be well Below ppb not to affect taste of my final beer, is that coherent information to your knowledge?

It is except that chlorine and chlorphenolic are being confused. Chlrophenolics have taste and smell thresholds of ppb. Chlorine is well above that. The real question that you need the answer to is "Will chlorine at 0.2 - 0.3 ppm induce chlorphenolic levels above taste/smell threshold?" Again the answer is uncertain and depends not only on the chlorine level but on the amount and types of phenols. I have judged beers in competitions brewed by guys using the same water supply. Some will exhibit the chlorphenolics and some won't.

It is, of course, best to play it safe and be sure the chlorine is out.

Is there a method to calculate the time it will take for "evaporation" of 0.2 ppm chlorine if I leave my water to sit in my mash Tun? I believe it depends on my vessel shape, water volume, atmospheric pressure, temperature outside and as well of my water?

It depends on all of those (except atmospheric pressure). Agitation of the water helps as does good air movement over the pot. In general people seem to think that an overnight stand is sufficient to clear 20 - 40 L of amounts up to a couple of mg/L. If you are like most people with respect to being able to smell chlorine and you can't smell it in the water it is at a low enough level that you can confidently brew with it. To be absolutely certain use part of a Campden tablet.

I'm asking this just to know if it would make sense and be practical to leave the water to sit outside (now it won't be possible because it is freezing but for the summer it could be useful).

Or let it sit in the kitchen.

One of my family member opened a tap from the house which was last in use a month earlier and said that the smell was like mold which means a bad odor is caught when water stagnate! Is that normal?

I'd say no but then I don't have the same species of mold that you do. This would be one of the reasons chloramine might be used. It isn't as good a germacide but it is more persistent. Or perhaps your plant should be dosing to higher than 0.3 ppm chlorine. It's possible that a biofilm has built up inside your plumbing and if that's the case you would need to consult a professional.

Be sure, before drawing brewing water, that you run the tap for long enough to thoroughly flush the pipes. A carbon filter just before the point where you take the water might help.

To that I wonder if the low pH of the water couldn't be responsible for catching some dirty stuff along the pipes? As discussed, the water is released from the plant at 7.55 and measured in my tap at 6.90...

I don't think that's what is happening. There is no where between the plant and the tap where acid could be injected to cause a pH drop. Lower pH out of the tap than at the plant outlet is a discrepancy that must be resolved. You would need to verify that you pH meter is stable and properly calibrated and take measurements at both places or have the water authority come measure at your tap.

One very strange thing is actually that the RO plant operator had also said that in the past he used to add sulfuric acid before the water was going through the chalk but realized it was making the chalk filtration less efficient and therefore decided to add sulfuric acid after the chalk filtration instead (I don't know whom decided actually but I know the contact person of the authority which is controlling the water and is responsible to give corrective measures in case something is not executed properly).

If he adds it before the chalk bed more chalk will be dissolved and the calcium level will be higher. I don't see how that would make the chalk less effective as a filter unless so much of it dissolved that it no longer formed a thick enough bed.

What means when you say the water is under saturated with respect to caco3:

Under saturated means that more calcium carbonate can dissolve in it than is already dissolved in it and that, therefore, any calcium carbonate which is deposited on the walls of piping, thus protecting it from the corrosive effects of water, will be removed thus also removing that protection.

...do you mean it can be corrosive and if so how do you know that?

That is the implication based on simple reasoning that if it is undersaturated it will remove calcium carbonate and if oversaturated it will deposit it so that undersaturation (pH of the water lower than the pH at which it is satyrated) may eventually result in corrosion. But I don't know that. Prediction of when corrosion will occur is tricky. There are a couple of different indices which water works compute in order to understand whether they have to take steps to protect their distribution mains. None of these indices is considered a perfect indicator.

Regarding lowering the pH to be lowered from 8.57 because of WHO I'm not sure because I got a report from the water I get on the mainland and it says that the recommendation for pH should be in the range of 6.9 to 9.5 and this is according to the Decree from the Finnish ministry of social affairs and health relating to the quality and monitoring of water for human consumption 461/2000.

I was just guessing that they might be trying to stay within the WHO recommendations. I don't understand them as I see no problem with pH higher than 8.5 (within limits). The WHO limit is certainly widely ignored in the US.

 

[Finlandbrews]

I start to get a bit more knowledge on the water I get as I made the salifert total hardness/alkalinity test. I have gotten 0.6 dKH maybe slightly lower even and this seem to be 0.22 meq/L. What can I deduct from these values now? When I had sent my water to a lab test few months ago I received 8ppm for calcium and 2 ppm for magnesium while my chloride and sodium are high 150ppm and 180ppm. Also that lab reported to me 20 ppm alkalinity as caco3 and now my alkalinity is maximum the concentration of 0.22 meq/L. I have no free chlorine and my total chlorine is below 1 ppm. What I really want to figure out is if that RO filter to treat the Baltic sea water removes all pollutants and other mess detectable compounds which could make bad taste to my beer. Taste of the water has improved a little bit though. I know salifert has another kit for organic pollutants, could that be of help? Or a tds meter would be more helpful?