Stout Recipe Help

[rklinck]

I would love some help with tweaking a stout recipe that I recently brewed. Here is the recipe:

3 lbs Pilsen DME
1 lb Malting Co. of Ireland Stout Malt (a light base malt with high enzyme power)
1.5 lbs. Roasted Barley (300 L)
3 lbs. Flaked Barley
1.5 oz East Kent Goldings (60 min. boil)
.5 oz East Kent Goldings (30 min. boil)
Danstar Nottingham yeast

I did a two step BIAB mash. My initial mash temp was 156 for 60 minutes. I then raised the temp to 168 for 10 minutes. I sparged through a strainer with about 4 gallons of water that was at 170 degrees. I hit 1.050 for my OG (just below the 1.051 predicted by Beersmith) and hit my FG of 1.012.

The resulting beer is good, but the flavor is not quite as dry as I would like. The flavor has more residual sweetness than I was expecting. I am trying to figure out how to alter the recipe to reduce the perception of residual sweetness. I have three ideas:

1. Mash at a lower temperature to get higher attenuation and less residual sugar.

2. Swap some of the roasted barley out with debittered black malt.

3. Us the Guinness trick of setting about 2 pints of this batch out to sour for 4 or 5 days and then add that to my wort near flameout.

What do you all think of these ideas? Any other suggestions?

 

[zeg]

The recipe seems pretty heavy on the barley and roast barley to me, but that wouldn't make it come out sweet.

I think your problem may be too little diastatic power. While it's described as having high diastatic power, the Stout Malt only has 80-90°L (according to the Northern Brewer page). Many modern base malts are higher than this. If so, you're counting on that to convert itself plus 3 pounds of flaked barley. The rule of thumb is you need about 30°L to convert your mash. Youve got 4 pounds of malt/grain to convert, so that's at best 90/4=22.5°L. You need to add more stout malt or switch to one with higher diastatic power.

I don't know for sure whether this would give you a sweet result, since incomplete conversion would tend to leave starch around rather than sugars, but it's possible you are winding up with more unfermentable sugars than you would expect. In any case, as a matter of good recipe design, you should bump up the DP.

[edit] Reviewed a few resources and, yes, insufficient DP will give you unfermentable sugars and a very sweet result.

 

[emmdubb23]

I would ditch the stout malt altogether , mash in equal parts flaked and roasted with twice as much base malt and add in the needed extra light dme to reach target gravity, one if the things I love about stout is the best results come from very simple recipes.

 

[rklinck]

Thanks for the quick response. I adapted this from an all grain recipe, which is the reason that it was so heavy on flaked barley compared to base malt. I may have to try out a BIAB all grain recipe for this one. What base malt would you suggest? I regularly buy Pilsner and Pale 2 Row in large quantities.

 

[emmdubb23]

Thanks for the quick response. I adapted this from an all grain recipe, which is the reason that it was so heavy on flaked barley compared to base malt. I may have to try out a BIAB all grain recipe for this one. What base malt would you suggest? I regularly buy Pilsner and Pale 2 Row in large quantities.

I use regular 2-row.

 

[zeg]

I'd probably go with the Pale malt. American 2-row typically has DP of 140°L, which would be enough that you could get away with one pound of it. I'd be inclined to double it up as emmdubb suggested, just as insurance.

If you want the character of the English malt, you could use Maris Otter. That would just be able to convert the barley, so I'd probably increase the quantity a bit. I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between ordinary 2-row and MO with all the roast barley and extract, though, so I'd just go with the 2-row if you have it. (If you're ordering, might as well shell out the extra quarter to get the MO though, it gives you street cred.)

 

[Pie_Man]

That seems like a lot of roasted barley and flaked barley. Flaked barley is typically added for head retention and body, 3lbs. seems excessive. I think .5lbs-1lbs is typically preferable for a 5 gallon batch. Roasted barley has a strong flavor, I didn't calculate the percentages for your recipe, but I'd keep it under about 5%. A recent milk stout I brewed had 4.2% roasted barley and the beer is very roasted, which I like, but I don't think I'd go too much higher than that. I would suggest trying a good base malt instead of the stout malt and Pilsen DME. Try a pale malt base, Marris Otter is also a great choice. I'm not sure if that will solve your sweetness issue, but it might help. What kind of sweetness are you detecting? If it corn like, or caramel like, etc.?

Regarding your three ideas:
1. Mash at a lower temperature to get higher attenuation and less residual sugar. - Typically stouts are mashed at higher temps, 154-156, and a less attenuative yeast is used. This helps to give stouts their medium to full body.

2. Swap some of the roasted barley out with debittered black malt. - Probably not necessary, but that's up to you.

3. Us the Guinness trick of setting about 2 pints of this batch out to sour for 4 or 5 days and then add that to my wort near flameout. - This is the first time I'm hearing of this technique. It seems like a lot of work and it seems like it would increase the likelihood of infection. Microflora, wild yeast, bacteria, etc. are likely to get into the 2 pints during the 4-5 days and not all of these will be desirable. Also, this would require brewing a portion of the batch 4-5 days ahead of time, and that seems like a lot of extra work. I'd suggest trying acidulated malt, or foregoing the idea, but that's up to you.

Please let us know what you decide to do and how it comes out.

 

[zeg]

I think .5lbs-1lbs is typically preferable for a 5 gallon batch.

I tend to agree, although 1.5 pounds isn't totally out of whack, but as a proportion in this recipe it's pushing things. The flaked barley is also far more than you'd normally see, but that's less likely to give you an acrid beer. However, the OP seems to like the overall flavor of his first batch aside from the sweetness.

Though, if he solves the conversion problem and gets rid of that sweetness, the roast barley may become overpowering. It might just be that the bitterness is being balanced by the sweetness.

3. Us the Guinness trick of setting about 2 pints of this batch out to sour for 4 or 5 days and then add that to my wort near flameout. - This is the first time I'm hearing of this technique. It's seems like a lot of work and it seems like it would increase the likelihood of infection. Microflora, wild yeast, bacteria, etc. are likely to get into the 2 pints during the 4-5 days and not all of these will be desirable. Also, this would require brewing a portion of the batch 4-5 days ahead of time, and that seems like a lot of extra work. I'd suggest trying acidulated malt, or foregoing the idea, but that's up to you.

Agree with this. I'd definitely start by nailing a recipe and process for an ordinary beer that I was happy with before adding that sort of complexity. Controlled souring of a beer is not really a beginner technique. Like most brewing, it's not going to be *hard* hard, but it involves introducing a bunch of bacteria and then trying to kill them off so they don't sour your whole batch. If you don't pull off the slaughter, I hope you want 5 gallons of sour stout! (Or, I guess you could then use that as soured wort to practice the technique again on your next 20 batches...)

The Guinness method is atypical of stouts and is definitely not necessary to produce a good dry stout. It might be an interesting technique to play with, but it also isn't going to do anything to fight the sweetness problem.

 

[rklinck]

Thanks for the advice. I think I am going to modify the grain bill as follows:

3 lbs Pilsen DME
3 lbs pale 2 Row
1 lb flaked barley
1 lb roasted barley (change to a darker 500 L)

I am going to try the soured beer approach. From what I have read, Guinness uses soured beer to give extra bite and flavor to the beer. I am going to follow advice I just found on a website for doing this: (1) pull some of the wort from the recipe after it cools, (2) let that wort sit exposed to air for 4 to 5 days to sour, (3) boil the soured wort to kill the wild yeast and bacteria, (4) cool, and (5) add to the fermenting bucket. --In light of Zeg's last comment, maybe I will try the stout with the modified grain bill for the next round and wait on the soured beer approach.

I am going to brew this pretty soon, and I will report back on the results.

 

[zeg]

In light of Zeg's last comment, maybe I will try the stout with the modified grain bill for the next round and wait on the soured beer approach.

Well, don't let me discourage you from being adventurous! Trying to use the sour wort to fix the sweetness problem was the main thing that worried me. Incidentally, I'm a bit conservative about brewing, so my own inclination would be to make it the easy way once and then see what effect the extra addition adds.

You could always find a gallon jug and an extra air lock and split your batch to do a side-by-side test without risking the whole thing.

 

[emmdubb23]

Thanks for the advice. I think I am going to modify the grain bill as follows:

3 lbs Pilsen DME
3 lbs pale 2 Row
1 lb flaked barley
1 lb roasted barley (change to a darker 500 L)

I am going to try the soured beer approach. From what I have read, Guinness uses soured beer to give extra bite and flavor to the beer. I am going to follow advice I just found on a website for doing this: (1) pull some of the wort from the recipe after it cools, (2) let that wort sit exposed to air for 4 to 5 days to sour, (3) boil the soured wort to kill the wild yeast and bacteria, (4) cool, and (5) add to the fermenting bucket. --In light of Zeg's last comment, maybe I will try the stout with the modified grain bill for the next round and wait on the soured beer approach.

I am going to brew this pretty soon, and I will report back on the results.

That sounds like a solid grain bill. I keep things simple and rely on good technique to take care of the rest

 

[Pie_Man]

How would you describe the sweetness you are tasting? Is it corn like, grain-like, maybe caramel like?

I mentioned the flaked barley at 3lbs. for two reasons. One, as a general recipe critique. Two, and this is just a guess, but I wonder if too much flaked barley can lead to a grain-like sweetness that the OP is detecting? Not sure...
The revised recipe looks pretty good.

 

[emmdubb23]

How would you describe the sweetness you are tasting? Is it corn like, grain-like, maybe caramel like?

I mentioned the flaked barley at 3lbs. for two reasons. One, as a general recipe critique. Two, and this is just a guess, but I wonder if too much flaked barley can lead to a grain-like sweetness that the OP is detecting. Not sure, but the revised recipe looks pretty good.

That very well might be the case, I have never put that much flaked barley in anything, like most adjuncts I might make it 6% at best and really its for head retention and mouthfeel, in that proportion its almost a base grain, could make for some funky experimentation.

 

[rklinck]

I would characterize it as a malty/caramel sweetness. I would characterize the sweetness as similar to the malty sweetness that I detect in brown ales and porters. I generally am not a fan of those beers because my palate perceives the malty flavor as too sweet. I prefer very dry stouts. The sweetness is not overpowering, and I would not mind drinking multiple batches of the stout I have made. I was just hoping to find a way to make it a bit dryer to cater to my particular palate. That was one of the reasons I thought that replacing the 300 L roasted barley with a smaller amount of a darker roast would help.

 

[rklinck]

That very well might be the case, I have never put that much flaked barley in anything, like most adjuncts I might make it 6% at best and really its for head retention and mouthfeel, in that proportion its almost a base grain, could make for some funky experimentation.

My understanding is that flaked barley makes up about 10% of the grain bill for Guinness. Considering that I am a big fan of Guinness, I figure that using a similar grain bill makes sense.

I will report back on the results. I just have to find a way to get this brewed soon enough to have it ready for St. Patty's day.

 

[emmdubb23]

My understanding is that flaked barley makes up about 10% of the grain bill for Guinness. Considering that I am a big fan of Guinness, I figure that using a similar grain bill makes sense.

I will report back on the results. I just have to find a way to get this brewed soon enough to have it ready for St. Patty's day.

Oh it should be ready well ahead of that.

 

[Pie_Man]

I would characterize it as a malty/caramel sweetness. I would characterize the sweetness as similar to the malty sweetness that I detect in brown ales and porters. I generally am not a fan of those beers because my palate perceives the malty flavor as too sweet. I prefer very dry stouts. The sweetness is not overpowering, and I would not mind drinking multiple batches of the stout I have made. I was just hoping to find a way to make it a bit dryer to cater to my particular palate. That was one of the reasons I thought that replacing the 300 L roasted barley with a smaller amount of a darker roast would help.

Hmmm, It's possible the sweetness you're detecting is more process related versus recipe related. Diacetyl in low levels can create a nutty or caramel flavor. Diaceteyl in low levels is appropriate for dry stouts and porters, but it might not be a taste you prefer. Your palate could have a low threshold for it which makes it easier for you to detect the flavor. Common causes of diacetyl could be racking off the primary prematurely, under pitching yeast, or extended wort cooling times. You may also want to try increasing your pitch rate a little and giving the beer a few more days on the yeast cake as the yeast will clean up some of the diacetyl towards the end of the fermentation process.

 

[rklinck]

Hmmm, It's possible the sweetness you're detecting is more process related versus recipe related. Diacetyl in low levels can create a nutty or caramel flavor. Diaceteyl in low levels is appropriate for dry stouts and porters, but it might not be a taste you prefer. Your palate could have a low threshold for it which makes it easier for you to detect the flavor. Common causes of diacetyl could be racking off the primary prematurely, under pitching yeast, or extended wort cooling times. You may also want to try increasing your pitch rate a little and giving the beer a few more days on the yeast cake as the yeast will clean up some of the diacetyl towards the end of the fermentation process.

Thanks for the advice. I did not use a yeast starter but may try that in the future. The stout sat in primary for 3 weeks at around 65 degrees. I then cold crashed for 3 days before kegging it. Is that not enough for diaceteyl clean up?

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the beer. It just reminds me of a lot of stouts I have had other than Guinness that have a bit more malty sweetness than I prefer.

 

[zeg]

Nottingham shouldn't be leaving you with much in the way of diacetyl if you were holding it at 65°F. It's usually very clean, though I've heard this is most true at the low end of its temperature range (57°-60°). However, I think it gets estery rather than diacetylic (making up suffixes here...) when it gets too warm.

If you were fermenting it at 65°F by sticking it in a room that was 65°, you probably did get up to 70° at the start of fermentation. A fermenting beer will get a bit warmer than its environment. This is the most significant at the start of fermentation, and unfortunately since this is where the bulk of the fermentation occurs, it's simultaneously the most critical time to control the temperature.

 

[emmdubb23]

I use Nottingham for my ferments and it is warmer than 70f, never had issues with off-flavors. I really don't think its diacetyl. Most likely unfermented sugars.