Stout recipe feedback - malt and hop advice

[Rhetorik]

Howdy folks

I'm looking to do a variation on the "None more black" recipe that's been well-reviewed. I do not have the OG/FG/etc calculated, but here is what I'm looking at using:

Grains/Extract:
6.5 lb. Dark Liquid Malt Extract
0.75 lb. Black Patent Malt
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt
0.25 lb. Roasted Barley
1.0 lb Rolled Oats
0.5 lb Lactose

First question: How does my malt extract lineup look? Should I swap some of the Dark LME for a light or amber LME? Also, with the addition of lactose and chocolate malt, is this stout going to be overpoweringly sweet?


Now for the hops

The recipe calls for:
1 oz Cluster (7.00%) at 60 minutes
1 oz East Kent Goldings (4.00) at 20 minutes

I have Galena, Cluster, Goldings (not EKG, just Goldings) and Fuggles hops. Should I stick with 1oz Cluster and 1oz Goldings, or should I swap in Galena or Fuggles? Hell, even try something funky like 0.5oz Cluster/0.5oz Galena at 60, and 0.5oz Goldings/0.5oz Fuggles at 20?

Other
1 tsp Irish moss at 15 minutes
3 vanilla beans and oak chips, soaked in bourbon and added to secondary
1 Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast 1084

So there you have it. What I'm looking to make would basically be a Bourbon Vanilla Oatmeal Milk Stout with Oak. To repeat my questions, I'm wondering if I should stick with all Dark extract or swap in something a bit lighter, which hops I should use given what I have available, and lastly if this will end up being too sweet given the use of lactose, vanilla, and chocolate malt.

I'm really excited to give this a go (would like to brew it tomorrow) and would love to get feedback. I think it could be pretty epic!

 

[Malticulous]

You wont get much from the oats but starch haze, you need a mash to use it. I think with the dark extract dropping the black malt to .25 lb would be better. There is some in the extract already.

 

[Rhetorik]

Forgot to mention I will be steeping the grains at 150F for 30-35 minutes. Would steeping the oats for that amount of time be enough to "mash" them, or would more time/temperature be needed?

Alternatively, I do have a 5gal mash tun that i could use, but I imagine I'd need to do a partial mash and use less extract for that to work.

Or I could just leave them out. I have a feeling there'd be enough going on in this beer that they wouldn't be missed too much.

 

[schokie]

The rolled oats will create a starch haze, but it's questionable how much you'll notice that in a dark beer.

I tend to use plain or extra-light DME for my extract beers and get all the flavor and color from specialty grains. If the Dark Extract provides a particular flavor you like, then use it. Otherwise, just use what's available. You have enough black patent and roasted barley in the recipe that you'll have a black beer regardless of the extract you use.

I'd go with the 1oz Cluster and 1oz Goldings like you suggested first. In a stout the hops are mostly background, so don't spend too much time or energy on that. Just get close enough. You make your money with the grains.

I would think the amount of lactose you have is a lot. Extracts tend to not ferment as completely as you'd hope, so it might make your sweetness problem worse. Do you have any maltodextrin? That would increase mouthfeel without contributing to residual sweetness.

 

[schokie]

Forgot to mention I will be steeping the grains at 150F for 30-35 minutes. Would steeping the oats for that amount of time be enough to "mash" them, or would more time/temperature be needed?

The grains you're using don't have enough diastatic power to convert themselves. You'd need to include a small amount of base malt to mash. Just steep at 150F for 30 mins and call it good.

 

[Calder]

Dark malt extract (Briess and Milliard) are comprised of:

24% Base Malt
25% Wheat Malt
29% Caramel Malt 60L
19% Chocolate Malt
3% Roasted Barley

You can figure out how much of each grain it gives you. I think I'd nix the dark and use light + speciality grains. That way you really know what is going in the beer.

Do a mini mash with the grains. You will need to add some 2-row as none of your grains (or oats) have any enzymes. I just wrote this in another thread, so this is a straight copy if it is familiar. Thought it would be appropriate here, and I've already created it:

- For every lb of grain, add 1.25 quarts f water to the pot.
- Heat water to about 162 F.
- Add crushed grains. If you get a 5 gallon paint strainer bag from the hardware store, it will help removing grains. This should bring the temp down to about 152 F. Anywhere from 148 to 155 is fine.
- Steep/mash for 30 to 45 minutes. Stir occasionally.
- While steeping, bring a separate pot of water up to ~170 F with the additional water you need for your boil. NOTE: the grain will absorb about half a quart per lb, so ensure you compensate for that.
- When mash/steep is complete, remove the grain from the mash., and let drain for a while, collect the runnings.
- Rinse/sparge (or whatever you want to call it) the grains in the 170 F water you just heated up.
- Remove from pot, let drain.
- Collect all wort in boil pot and continue as normal.

It is not much more work than you simple steeping. You will extract a lot more flavor. You will extract a lot more sugars (can cut down on the extract you use). You will make better beer (probably - not guaranteed).

 

[Malticulous]

Dark malt extract (Briess and Milliard) are comprised of:

24% Base Malt
25% Wheat Malt
29% Caramel Malt 60L
19% Chocolate Malt
3% Roasted Barley

That's the Special Dark, The Traditional dark is mostly munich with c-60 and black malt for color.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWTradDarkLME.pdf

 

[blackbeer]

you're probably looking at a 1.050-ish 5 gallon beer i would say. for MY tastes, thats too much black patent. i would either drop it completely or drop it to .25 lbs and jack up the RB to .5 lb. again for my tastes, i prefer the flavor of RB over BP in my stouts. a little BP goes a long way.

 

[Rhetorik]

Well, the beer is now in fermentation. I went with 7# of dark LME (was on sale), and the batch size is 5.25gal. I dropped the chocolate malt and rolled oats entirely, but stuck with the 0.75lb of black malt and 0.25lb of toasted barley - staying true to the None More Black Recipe. I went with the Cluster and Goldings hops.... any suggestions on what I could do with the Galena? Brown ale, or a Bitter maybe?

I had a quick taste after transferring it from the brewpot to the fermentor - it was pretty darn full-bodied, roasted, and not surprisingly, a bit brackish as there was some sediment floating around. I am now playing the waiting game, and when I transfer to secondary after around 14 days I will be adding 3 vanilla beans and 1oz medium toast oak chips, both of which I'll have soaking in bourbon for a week. I'm thinking 3 vanilla beans for 7 days in secondary, and 1oz oak chips for 3-4 days in secondary, as I hear they pack quite a punch, and quite quickly.

I'm excited to sample the final results!

 

[peterj]

Just to let you know, chocolate malt doesn't really add any sweetness. It's a roasted grain that is pretty similar to Black Malt and Roasted Barley.

Also, it's good that you dropped the oats. As others stated those need to be mashed and you didn't have any base malt to contribute enzymes.

Hope it turns out well!

 

[rlmiller10]

Well, the beer is now in fermentation. I went with 7# of dark LME (was on sale), and the batch size is 5.25gal. I dropped the chocolate malt and rolled oats entirely, but stuck with the 0.75lb of black malt and 0.25lb of toasted barley - staying true to the None More Black Recipe. I went with the Cluster and Goldings hops.... any suggestions on what I could do with the Galena? Brown ale, or a Bitter maybe?

I had a quick taste after transferring it from the brewpot to the fermentor - it was pretty darn full-bodied, roasted, and not surprisingly, a bit brackish as there was some sediment floating around. I am now playing the waiting game, and when I transfer to secondary after around 14 days I will be adding 3 vanilla beans and 1oz medium toast oak chips, both of which I'll have soaking in bourbon for a week. I'm thinking 3 vanilla beans for 7 days in secondary, and 1oz oak chips for 3-4 days in secondary, as I hear they pack quite a punch, and quite quickly.

I'm excited to sample the final results!

If those vanilla beans are the dried up, like the ones found in most grocery stores, then three might be OK. But if they are plump, sticky, fresh beans like you would find at a spice store 3 will totally blow out the flavor of the beer unless you like a vanilla bomb. If they are fresh beans I would not use more than one and a half.

I used two beans (fresh) in a recipe that called for three. Now, 16 months later, the vanilla has calmed down enough I can actually drink it and enjoy.

 

[Rhetorik]

If those vanilla beans are the dried up, like the ones found in most grocery stores, then three might be OK. But if they are plump, sticky, fresh beans like you would find at a spice store 3 will totally blow out the flavor of the beer unless you like a vanilla bomb. If they are fresh beans I would not use more than one and a half.

I used two beans (fresh) in a recipe that called for three. Now, 16 months later, the vanilla has calmed down enough I can actually drink it and enjoy.

Thanks for the info - I haven't picked up the beans yet, and am debating between two options: either buying them from a store like Bulk Barn (where they're more likely less fresh) or buying them online from OntarioBeerKegs where they're listed as being kick-ass madagascar beans. Anyone have any experience with the latter?

I suppose a safer option would be to start with 1.5-2 beans in the secondary, and if I find the flavour to be too imperceptible when I'm getting ready to bottle, I can always add a tsp of vanilla extract to the bottling bucket.

Just to let you know, chocolate malt doesn't really add any sweetness. It's a roasted grain that is pretty similar to Black Malt and Roasted Barley.

Also, it's good that you dropped the oats. As others stated those need to be mashed and you didn't have any base malt to contribute enzymes.

Hope it turns out well!

Thanks for the tip! I'm (pretty obviously, most likely) still quite new at this - about 6 batches in so far. I'll be be starting all-grain brewing in the next month or so, I have a 5gal mash tun made, but am waiting for my birthday (April 25) as I've been assured I'll be getting a 7.5+ gallon brewpot, so I'll be ready to go!

Just for giggles, here's the past two recipes I've made: they're almost identical, but with a slight hop change for the second batch (which is currently 10 days into fermentation - the 1st batch has been bottled for 2.5 weeks and pretty darn tasty!)

Attempt #1

Note: I did a 3.5gal boil, and topped to ~5 gallons for fermentation

Grains/Extracts:
1.25kg Amber LME in boil
1.25kg Pale LME in boil

1.25kg Amber LME at knockout
1.25kg Pale LME at knockout

1# Vienna Malt, steeped at 160F for 45 minutes

Hops:
1.5oz Centennial (60)
0.5oz Centennial (40)
1.0oz Amarillo (40)
1.0oz Amarillo (15)
1.0oz Citra (dry hop, 6 days)

1 tsp Irish Moss (10)
1pkg Safale US-05

Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 20 Days at 70 Degrees. Did not transfer to a secondary.

Attempt #2

Everything remained the same with one variation in the hops: replaced the 1.0oz Citra with 2.0oz Cascade (1oz in boil, 1oz for dry-hop). Unlike the 1st attempt, I will also be cold-crashing this batch for 2 days to improve clarity

1.5oz Centennial (60)
0.5oz Centennial (40)
1.0oz Amarillo (40)
1oz Cascade (20)
1.0oz Amarillo (15)
1.0oz Cascade (dry hop, 6 days)