smizak
Well-Known Member
Good advice.
Still having off-flavor issues!
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Good advice.
JuanMoore
Getting the banned back together
+1 excellent suggestion.
OP
OP
I just looked at my first post, and realized that I wasn't as clear as i meant to be. The off flavor is first detected after fermentation, when I transfer out of primary, into keg/secondary, and stays with the beer from then on. I'm confident it's not in dispensing. I'm becoming more confident it's not anything to do with my cleaning/sanitizing process.
I always taste my hydro sample into the fermenter, and don't detect anything but sweet hoppiness. I don't know if the sugar would mask the flavor or not, but fermentation seems to be the key element that either amplifies something which happens during the brewing process, or causes the problem altogether. And yes, I closely monitor and control my ferm temps.
See above.
This is on the list, though I still doubt it's the culprit in my case.
I still need to check over my tun, there could be some issues there.
This is a good suggestion. I willy this when I have time.
I always taste my hydro sample into the fermenter, and don't detect anything but sweet hoppiness. I don't know if the sugar would mask the flavor or not, but fermentation seems to be the key element that either amplifies something which happens during the brewing process, or causes the problem altogether. And yes, I closely monitor and control my ferm temps.
Could it be on the dispensing side. Some plastics have an ugly finish if you drink water through them. Like walmart garden hose?
See above.
This is on the list, though I still doubt it's the culprit in my case.
I still need to check over my tun, there could be some issues there.
This is a good suggestion. I willy this when I have time.
Sorry if I missed whether or not you tried a 90-minute boil yet, but all I saw was "why would my beer taste wierd with a 60 minute boil when everyone else's is fine?". My beers often had off-flavors with 60 minute boils (for no reason in particular) until i ramped it up and it was fixed, so I'd try that first. I started doing 90 minute boils and using bottled water to get rid of my off flavors (those big 2.5 gallon ones with the spigot) and it worked.
Your boiling vessel is stainless steel right?
Your boiling vessel is stainless steel right?
Have you tried different mash thicknesses? Since I've started mashing thin (2qt/lb+), my beers have become significantly better. I'm guessing this is because of the smaller sparge volume (and FWIW my efficiency has actually improved). Might not make a difference for you but it can't hurt to try.
bradjoiner
Well-Known Member
i acvtually tried this today and was very suprised by the results. athough i did not pick up anything i would call an off flavor i did pick up hints of maltiness comng out of my cooler mash tun. and also a weird flavor that came from my immersion chiller. i recomend his to every one. (to solve the chiller problem i boiled in a vinegar solution)
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bradjoiner
Well-Known Member
sorry i meant to quote ohio-ed's advice on running the brew process with just water but i messed up and now i cant fix my post
Dr Malt
Well-Known Member
There are some great comments and advise here and it appears you are well on your way pursuing these in an attempt to solve your problem. I have a few things to add that might be helpful.
In terms of it being DMS, I don't think this is your problem in that the flavor of DMS is more vegetable, corn like and sometime sweet. And how you might get DMS from a 60 minute boil versus others who get none from a 60 minute boil has to do with how long it takes to cool your wort after boil. Hot, non-boiling wort continues to form DMS and without a boil, it is not as readily driven off. Thus it builds up in the wort. The cooler the wort, the slower the reaction is in forming DMS. So if your wort was sitting at 180 F for 30 minutes and another brewer cooled his wort to 68 F in 30 minutes and both boiled for 60 minutes, your wort would have a much higher DMS level in the wort and beer compared to the other brewer.
The flavors you describe, sour, astringency, feusal (I assume fusel not fecal) can have different origins. The sour flavor can be from acid producing bacteria which is a contamination. Astringency is normally from the tannins in the grain. I see you are sparging with 190 F water and you said you have lowered that some to prevent extracting tannins. You might check your sparge water pH. Tannins are acidic so sparge water above 7 will solubilize and extract more tannins. If your sparge water is slightly acidic ( less than 7 such as 6.0 - 6.8), you will get less tannin extraction. Also, as you sparge the grain, the pH is rising to that of the water the more you rinse. Don't worry about getting maximum efficiency as the last bit of extract can come with a good shot of tannins.
Fusel oils are can be formed by yeast or bacteria during fermentation. If your fermentation temperatures are above 70 F you can get fusel oils from yeast. However, it sounds like you control your fermentation temperatures well so would not suspect this to be a problem.
One other thought is that an array of off flavors can come from hydrolyzed yeast. This can be a bitterness that is more lingering and different than hop bitterness. This happens when the beer sits on the yeast and/or settled yeast that has hydrolyzed is stirred into the beer somehow. This is a nasty after taste in beer. Do you carefully rack the beer off the yeast cake after primary and secondary fermentation?? Just a thought.
I hope this helps some. Keep up the detective work, you will find the problem!
Dr Malt
In terms of it being DMS, I don't think this is your problem in that the flavor of DMS is more vegetable, corn like and sometime sweet. And how you might get DMS from a 60 minute boil versus others who get none from a 60 minute boil has to do with how long it takes to cool your wort after boil. Hot, non-boiling wort continues to form DMS and without a boil, it is not as readily driven off. Thus it builds up in the wort. The cooler the wort, the slower the reaction is in forming DMS. So if your wort was sitting at 180 F for 30 minutes and another brewer cooled his wort to 68 F in 30 minutes and both boiled for 60 minutes, your wort would have a much higher DMS level in the wort and beer compared to the other brewer.
The flavors you describe, sour, astringency, feusal (I assume fusel not fecal) can have different origins. The sour flavor can be from acid producing bacteria which is a contamination. Astringency is normally from the tannins in the grain. I see you are sparging with 190 F water and you said you have lowered that some to prevent extracting tannins. You might check your sparge water pH. Tannins are acidic so sparge water above 7 will solubilize and extract more tannins. If your sparge water is slightly acidic ( less than 7 such as 6.0 - 6.8), you will get less tannin extraction. Also, as you sparge the grain, the pH is rising to that of the water the more you rinse. Don't worry about getting maximum efficiency as the last bit of extract can come with a good shot of tannins.
Fusel oils are can be formed by yeast or bacteria during fermentation. If your fermentation temperatures are above 70 F you can get fusel oils from yeast. However, it sounds like you control your fermentation temperatures well so would not suspect this to be a problem.
One other thought is that an array of off flavors can come from hydrolyzed yeast. This can be a bitterness that is more lingering and different than hop bitterness. This happens when the beer sits on the yeast and/or settled yeast that has hydrolyzed is stirred into the beer somehow. This is a nasty after taste in beer. Do you carefully rack the beer off the yeast cake after primary and secondary fermentation?? Just a thought.
I hope this helps some. Keep up the detective work, you will find the problem!
Dr Malt
martinworswick
Well-Known Member
do you take any gravity readings towards the end of the sparge?
I'm gonna throw my hat in the DMS arena, I would try a 90 minute boil. I am sure u have an extra 30 minutes on brewday. Its worth a shot.
OP
OP
Yes it's stainless. Both your suggestions are on the list, it's getting long, though, thanks for the input.
I have really only mashed at about 1.25 Qt/lb, so maybe next batch I'll try a thinner mash, though I know many peole have mashed at 1 Qt/lb without any problems.
There are some great comments and advise here and it appears you are well on your way pursuing these in an attempt to solve your problem. I have a few things to add that might be helpful.
In terms of it being DMS, I don't think this is your problem in that the flavor of DMS is more vegetable, corn like and sometime sweet. And how you might get DMS from a 60 minute boil versus others who get none from a 60 minute boil has to do with how long it takes to cool your wort after boil. Hot, non-boiling wort continues to form DMS and without a boil, it is not as readily driven off. Thus it builds up in the wort. The cooler the wort, the slower the reaction is in forming DMS. So if your wort was sitting at 180 F for 30 minutes and another brewer cooled his wort to 68 F in 30 minutes and both boiled for 60 minutes, your wort would have a much higher DMS level in the wort and beer compared to the other brewer.
The flavors you describe, sour, astringency, feusal (I assume fusel not fecal) can have different origins. The sour flavor can be from acid producing bacteria which is a contamination. Astringency is normally from the tannins in the grain. I see you are sparging with 190 F water and you said you have lowered that some to prevent extracting tannins. You might check your sparge water pH. Tannins are acidic so sparge water above 7 will solubilize and extract more tannins. If your sparge water is slightly acidic ( less than 7 such as 6.0 - 6.8), you will get less tannin extraction. Also, as you sparge the grain, the pH is rising to that of the water the more you rinse. Don't worry about getting maximum efficiency as the last bit of extract can come with a good shot of tannins.
Fusel oils are can be formed by yeast or bacteria during fermentation. If your fermentation temperatures are above 70 F you can get fusel oils from yeast. However, it sounds like you control your fermentation temperatures well so would not suspect this to be a problem.
One other thought is that an array of off flavors can come from hydrolyzed yeast. This can be a bitterness that is more lingering and different than hop bitterness. This happens when the beer sits on the yeast and/or settled yeast that has hydrolyzed is stirred into the beer somehow. This is a nasty after taste in beer. Do you carefully rack the beer off the yeast cake after primary and secondary fermentation?? Just a thought.
I hope this helps some. Keep up the detective work, you will find the problem!
Dr Malt
Thanks, I'm always careful with everything you mention. I literaly kill the burner and turn on the chiller, andd my 50' 5/8" imersion chiller never takes longer than 10-15 minutes to get the wort down to pitching temp. I always rack quietly, and almost never let a beer sit on a yeast cake more than 3 weeks.
I only recently checked my final runnings, and they were at 1.018. considering that all the beer I have brewed recently has had a very similar grain bill/mash consistancy/sparge volume, I doubt that the gravity has been more than a few points off of that reading within the last year.
I will try this if I have to, but I'm skeptical. My off flavor problem tastes nothing like the typical DMS flavor described above. Like millions of other brewers I aggressively boil for 60 minutes, and chill rapidly. Why would I have DMS problems?
-TH-
Well-Known Member
What do you use for a sanitizer?
