Step-Wise Process

[cactusgarrett]

I just listened to an episode Sour Hour podcast where Dr. Lambic described his preferred process of souring with lacto first, then fermenting with sacc, then aging with brett. He explained how the process produces a more predictable and reproducible result.

My question is related to the viability of making the process contained in all one vessel. I've only experienced souring with lacto in Berliner Weisse via kettle souring, so I'm uneasy with the process of leaving the lacto unchecked by not boiling after souring. Is it a viable process to:

1) mash and boil as normal,
2) pitch lacto to sour in the fermenter for 24-36 hours (likely with l. plantarum),
3) pitch sacc to ferment as usual, then
4) transfer to secondary and pitch brett for long-term aging?

Sorry for the rambling. Thanks!

 

[radwizard]

I would say that is a viable process if you don't want to use any hops.

I have been co pitching L. Plantarum and Sacc. Fermenting from 70-76. I have been getting a nice tartness from the LAB, but have not produced a super sour beer with that method - I think I would use your process if I wanted to get more acid and pitch the lacto warmer.

I have also heard people having good results pitching l. plantarum after the sacc has finished. I'm wanting to try this out soon in a saison or small belguim beer.

In the beers that I have co pitched the bugs and sacc, I have added added brett directing to the fermenter, or racked into a secondary. I taste the LAB/Sacc beer before pitching Brett, and usually add a small amount of hops to the fermenter at this time.

Your process looks good. You should give it a shot. Where are you sourcing your LAB?

 

[cactusgarrett]

LHBS at this point. Just seems easier and more controlled than sourcing and pitching dregs.

 

[AMessenger]

I would second that this lacto then sach method can be effective and gives a better baseline level of acidity than just starting with a blend of all the microbes will often get you.

I've had good luck repitching the combined sach and lacto dregs over the last year and a half. I would recommend saving those dregs pre-brett. The lacto (White Labs Brevis) has been able to consistantly acidify the beer to a nice level over a couple weeks of primary while in direct competition with the sach. That's with no hops though. If I mash in the high 150s I can get it to stop in the mid 1.01s SG to give the brett a good amount more to work on as well.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Great, thanks! My biggest concern with either lacto THEN sacc or co-pitching lacto with sacc is the potential for too much acid keeping the sacc from an optimal ferment. Seemed like the best way to keep this in check is a separate lacto souring then adding sacc pretty early (24-36 hours with plantarum?).

Ultimatey my point to all this is to gain complex souring without mucking around with kettle souring and multiple vessels.

 

[Beerswimmer]

I've made a bunch of kettle sours lately that have all been great. But I have been using 3711, it's supposed to be pretty acid tolerant. I pitch plantarum, wait longer than 48hrs, pitch yeast, add brett after primary ferment is done/slowed.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The multi-stage approach is definitely the method I will be using once I delve in to mixed fermentation sours. I want plenty of sour and reproducibility.
One thing I'm not sure about is which Brett culture(s) to use.

Ultimately my point to all this is to gain complex souring without mucking around with kettle souring and multiple vessels.

FYI There's no reason to use a secondary when pitching Brett unless you need room to add fruit or something. ... Brett uses decaying Sacc as a nutrient and eats any autolysis products preventing off-flavors.

You didn't mention it here so I'm not sure whether you already do this but I suggest to pre-sour your wort with lactic acid to pH 4 to 4.5 to increase head retention and reduce risk of infection.

Lots of info here:
http://sourbeerblog.com/understanding-brewing-blending-lambic-style-kriek/
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation#Multi-Stage_Fermentation

 

[cactusgarrett]

FYI There's no reason to use a secondary when pitching Brett unless you need room to add fruit or something. ... Brett uses decaying Sacc as a nutrient and eats any autolysis products preventing off-flavors.

Yeah, I've gathered that, but I've also read/heard a lot of reputable sources (a few recurring Sour Hour guests) state that after primary fermentation they get the beer off the large primary sacc cake for long-term storage (1+ year). Sounds like they're suggesting Brett clean-up goes only so far. Also, I've got only one large (7.5gal) carboy I use for primary fermentation, so I'm likely to utilize a secondary just out of necessity.

I suggest to pre-sour your wort with lactic acid to pH 4 to 4.5 to increase head retention and reduce risk of infection.

I've pre-soured my wort with lactic only when brewing Berliner Weisse, but that's mainly because I let it sit and sour for 3 days before boiling and pitching sacc. I hadn't planned on it with this Lacto+Sacc+Brett approach since I was only going to leave the lacto do its thing for only 24-36 hours, then pitch the sacc. I assumed (maybe incorrectly?) that the lacto will acidify the wort sufficiently in that short amount of time to keep unwanted stuff at bay, in conjunction with only a short delay in pitching the sacc. But, I suppose an ounce of prevention couldn't hurt, so it's a good suggestion

 

[crane]

Yeah, I've gathered that, but I've also read/heard a lot of reputable sources (a few recurring Sour Hour guests) state that after primary fermentation they get the beer off the large primary sacc cake for long-term storage (1+ year). Sounds like they're suggesting Brett clean-up goes only so far.

My take from listening to the sour hour is that most of these guys are brewing commercially and it's more of a logistics thing. They choose to primary ferment in stainless and then rack to barrels for long term aging. Primary in that many barrels would be a lot more of a PIA than doing it in one large conical. Barrels do not have an easy way to deal with blowoff.