Starter?

[rodwha]

I've upped my max volume to 6 gals now as I find I have the room in most of my fermentors. When making a beer with an ABV as high as ~7% would you make a starter if using US-05/S-04/T-58? Or is it enough to handle the larger volume on its own?

 

[Conan]

I've only ever made about 4 starters and all my beers are >6%, often >7%. Granted they're also 5.25 gallons but my yeast seem happy enough. I can't detect any off flavors, anyway. S-05 is my go-to and is used in 9/10 of my batches. I'll probably be in the minority opinion on starters but my results are the same with and without going through the trouble. Kyle

 

[BigFloyd]

It makes no real sense to do a starter with dry yeast. Simply rehydrate, attemperate and pitch it. If it's a higher gravity ale (1.065 or higher), use two 11g packs, three for a really big beer. Lager - double it.

 

[bajaedition]

Starters benefit any beer
all you are doing with a starter is making sure the yeast is awake and active, ready to go. the side benefits is it populates the starter solution and the yeast count is so much higher, and that helps a lot

when you pitch yeast, it has been sitting around dormant, and you wake it up, by making a starter the yeast is woke up and excited by the time you pitch it,

when yeast hits the wort, it will populate that and go to town eating the sugars, the more you pitch the better,

SO make starters if you want better fermentations

 

[flars]

I've only used SA-05 of the three you listed. One 11.5 gram pack of yeast should suffice if it is fresh. SA-05 can tolerate the higher ABVs'.

Starters with dry yeast are detrimental to the yeast. I would recommend rehydrating the yeast according to the directions Fermentis has in their spec sheet. Except the stirring for 30 minutes. This is for pitching in the kilograms of yeast range.

 

[rodwha]

Wouldn't two packets of yeast be way over pitching for 6 gals?

Were I brewing a low ABV beer I wouldn't be concerned, but with them being a bit high I'm wondering if the yeast count is a little low for 6 gals, which is why I wondered if a small starter wouldn't be necessary.

When using liquid strains, and saved yeast I generally use 4 oz of DME in a qt. As I shouldn't need a standard sized starter I figured using 2 oz would be more than adequate.

 

[BigFloyd]

Wouldn't two packets of yeast be way over pitching for 6 gals?

Not if it's a higher gravity ale (or any lager). The cell count needs to be proportional to the volume and gravity of wort (i.e., the amount of fermentable sugars present). That's why the minimum recommended pitch rate (>=0.75 for ales and >=1.50 for lagers) is based on million cells/ml/degree plato.

Were I brewing a low ABV beer I wouldn't be concerned, but with them being a bit high I'm wondering if the yeast count is a little low for 6 gals, which is why I wondered if a small starter wouldn't be necessary.

Are you talking about liquid yeast or dry?

 

[DoWBrewer]

You don't need a starter with dry yeast. The pitch rate is pretty high as long as you are rehydrating your yeast. You don't need another packet for 5 to 6 gallons.

 

[Clonefan94]

Starters benefit any beer
all you are doing with a starter is making sure the yeast is awake and active, ready to go. the side benefits is it populates the starter solution and the yeast count is so much higher, and that helps a lot

when you pitch yeast, it has been sitting around dormant, and you wake it up, by making a starter the yeast is woke up and excited by the time you pitch it,

when yeast hits the wort, it will populate that and go to town eating the sugars, the more you pitch the better,

SO make starters if you want better fermentations

Not with dry yeast, which is what he's asking about. Do not make a starter for dry yeast, just use 2 packets instead of one if you need a higher cell count.

 

[rhys333]

I had heard that starters for dry yeast are detrimental for some reason or other I can't remember. I'm often wrong though, so I checked with Mr. Palmer and here's what he has to say:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

 

[rhys333]

Cross checked with Palmer's book and apparently the web info is out of date. He now recommends rehydrating in water and NOT proofing with sugar. Modern manufacturing techniques have optimized nutritional reserves for quick adaptation in the wort. Proofing expends some of those reserves and can make the yeast less able to adapt to the wort. So, rehydrate in warm water alone is the way to go.

 

[bajaedition]

Not with dry yeast, which is what he's asking about. Do not make a starter for dry yeast, just use 2 packets instead of one if you need a higher cell count.

so tell me, if such is the case, why do the big guys use starters? they could just use dried yeast.

just pitch the amount needed, it would make sense and they could close down that expensive department they have culturing yeast and getting cell counts up to where they want them to pitch.

I am just asking. not arguing

I think this is a personal thing guys, and your own results should dictate your policy. I know I get greater results with a starter, I do not need to look up someones book to tell me my results are wrong.

after all if everybody did this the exact same way there would only be 1 style of beer.

 

[kharper6]

I always do a stirplate starter with my dry yeast. Never had a problem.

 

[rhys333]

I think this is a personal thing guys, and your own results should dictate your policy. I know I get greater results with a starter, I do not need to look up someones book to tell me my results are wrong.

after all if everybody did this the exact same way there would only be 1 style of beer.

Sorry, I guess quoting Palmer is a bit nerdy of me. Admittedly, I'm not the most experienced home brewer so I often turn to Palmer's book for advice (plus the great ppl at HBT). You have a point though, do what gets the best results for you.

 

[bajaedition]

Sorry, I guess quoting Palmer is a bit nerdy of me. Admittedly, I'm not the most experienced home brewer so I often turn to Palmer's book for advice (plus the great ppl at HBT). You have a point though, do what gets the best results for you.

no problem with the quote, we all have our sources

Personally I try both sides of stuff like this and do what works best for me

remember, we are hobbyist, not professionals. We do not have the equipment, the time, or the money of the mega brewers. Our systems are pretty neanderthal in comparison and our techniques are based on our equipment. What works for me, will not work for you if we are using different equipment.

so here is my experience, Saturday I made a starter from dried yeast at about 1 in the afternoon, Sunday I pitched that starter into a wort at about 4 in the afternoon, At 7 that night I had a airlock doing the dance and saw a karusen starting to form. Just starting but starting

In my humble opinion that starter was worth doing

 

[DoWBrewer]

so tell me, if such is the case, why do the big guys use starters? they could just use dried yeast.

just pitch the amount needed, it would make sense and they could close down that expensive department they have culturing yeast and getting cell counts up to where they want them to pitch.

I am just asking. not arguing

I think this is a personal thing guys, and your own results should dictate your policy. I know I get greater results with a starter, I do not need to look up someones book to tell me my results are wrong.

after all if everybody did this the exact same way there would only be 1 style of beer.

Professional brewers don't do starters when they use dry yeast. I doubt doing a starter will hurt anything, but the yeast counts in dry yeast are very high. The starter will probably not increase the number of cells, but it will get the yeast active. Breweries do starters because they are re-pitching yeast from previous batches. A pitch of yeast for a brewery is pretty expensive, so they reuse the pitch for 5 or 6 batches.

 

[BigFloyd]

Professional brewers don't do starters when they use dry yeast. I doubt doing a starter will hurt anything, but the yeast counts in dry yeast are very high. The starter will probably not increase the number of cells, but it will get the yeast active. Breweries do starters because they are re-pitching yeast from previous batches. A pitch of yeast for a brewery is pretty expensive, so they reuse the pitch for 5 or 6 batches.

+1. The reason that you don't bother doing starters with dry yeast is that you don't gain much, if anything, from the time, effort and cost expended.

If you toss a packet of dry into starter wort, some of the cells (up to half according to Dr. Cone) die before they can reconstitute their cell walls. Then you're simply using the starter wort in an effort to regain what was lost. Also, an 11g packet of dry, according to microscopic studies, has about 200-220 billion cells. If you rehydrate the cells in warm tap water, that's a good pitch rate for a 5.25 gallon ale up to 1.060 gravity.

 

[bajaedition]

OK

You guys win

the reason I avoid forums is that there are always so many guys who want to argue a point to the ground in their view

And I guess that is where we are at here

My results as of just yesterday prove that making a starter has improved the performance of dry yeast

Argue that till it dies

I am out of here

 

[rodwha]

These dry yeast packs, from what I understand, are designed for a medium strength beer that's 5 gals in volume.

2 brews I intend on making soon will be 6 gal batches. The ESB states an OG of 1.060 (6.1% ABV), and the Cascadian Dark is 1.063 (6.8% ABV).

Since both are on the far end of a medium strength beer, but are an additional gallon, it seems a small starter would bring me back into a proper pitch rate. If I just added the one packet I'd be slightly under pitching, but to add 2 seems way over pitching.

I've dumped all of my liquid strains as I lost track of how many cycles they had been through, and I know I had a mutation with my WLP 001 (which wasn't bad as it was giving me higher attenuation numbers). So this is the first time I've been using dry yeast.

I've not heard of:
"If you toss a packet of dry into starter wort, some of the cells (up to half according to Dr. Cone) die before they can reconstitute their cell walls."

And so what you are saying is I'll need to make a standard size starter just to get it back up to a proper pitch rate. I have to admit that this doesn't make sense to me. I've not had to make large starters when using liquid strains to make up for what died. but I can't say that I know the science behind it all.

 

[chickypad]

My results as of just yesterday prove that making a starter has improved the performance of dry yeast

I guess he forgot to mention before he left that he didn't include a control without a starter. US-05 starts up in a couple hrs pretty reliably IME whatever you do, although I usually rehydrate.

I've not heard of:
"If you toss a packet of dry into starter wort, some of the cells (up to half according to Dr. Cone) die before they can reconstitute their cell walls."

And so what you are saying is I'll need to make a standard size starter just to get it back up to a proper pitch rate. I have to admit that this doesn't make sense to me. I've not had to make large starters when using liquid strains to make up for what died. but I can't say that I know the science behind it all.

No, you rehydrate in warm water first to avoid the cell loss, not do a starter. It looks like you need 1-1.2 packs for your beers depending on exact dates, I would honestly just rehydrate one pack and call it good. If it's close to 1.5 or higher I just usually do 2 packs. I really wouldn't worry too much about overpitching on the homebrew scale, unless you're talking 3-4 times too much.

Edit: just saw those are 6 gal batches. I'd plug in your own numbers but like I said if it's just a half pack or so over I would just pitch 2. You can always leave a tiny bit in the packet if you are really that worried about it.

 

[kombat]

I've not heard of:
"If you toss a packet of dry into starter wort, some of the cells (up to half according to Dr. Cone) die before they can reconstitute their cell walls."

It's documented in the book "Yeast," by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, which covers the topic in detail.

I'm sure I'll butcher the explanation, but basically dry yeast has been "frozen" in a state where it's ready to wake up and go straight to work on a full batch of beer. It has energy reserves stored in it, but it must be gently rehydrated in plain water in order to reconstitute its cell walls to allow it to take up nutrients. If you dump dry yeast directly in wort, the cell walls are unable to properly absorb the liquid and rehydrate, causing about half of the cells to die right away.

And so what you are saying is I'll need to make a standard size starter just to get it back up to a proper pitch rate. I have to admit that this doesn't make sense to me.

If you sprinkle dry yeast into starter wort, then as described above, 50% of them will die right away. The remaining 50% cells that survived being sprinkled into the starter wort will multiply, eventually getting back up to the same cell count you started with in the first place, or would have had if you'd simply rehydrated the packet in plain warm tap water as the manufacturer and research recommends.

So effectively, you've wasted both time and money (the cost of the DME in the starter wort) to get your cell count back up to what you would have had anyway if you'd just rehydrated following the recommended procedure.

I've not had to make large starters when using liquid strains to make up for what died. but I can't say that I know the science behind it all.

Liquid is a whole different ball game. Liquid yeasts do benefit from making a starter.

And big breweries use starters because they use liquid yeast, not dry yeast, because it's cheaper (they manage their own yeast stock) and they re-use it for several batches.

 

[rodwha]

So, in essence, were I to rehydrate the yeast for 20 mins, and then put them into a small starter I'll be in the ball park of a proper pitch rate? But to add straight to a starter will kill off too many to do any good.

 

[bajaedition]

Rodwha

do yourself a favor

if you look at this thread, there are a few things going on

a few guys are quoting experts and telling you that it is a waste of time to use a starter

and a few guys have posted that they use them and get good results, or have had no bad results

with that information, some first hand, some from quoted sources (in other hands what they have read) make up your mind on how you want to proceed.

It should take only a few seconds to decide. and bottom line if you try both ways, you can then use what ever way worked best for YOU.

 

[rodwha]

As I haven't read, nor understand what's going on I'll take it that they are right.

But I also see how the liquid yeast strains that claim to handle an average 5 gal batch has people stating a starter is necessary to keep from under pitching seems to say the same with me doing 6 gal batches. I'm thinking that what I'll do is make a small starter of 2 oz DME as I don't want to use another packet, which seems like an over pitch. And I'll rehydrate for 20 mins or so first.

Maybe it's not necessary, as I had initially used liquid yeasts without a starter and made good 5 gal batches without any noticeable problems, though I was completely green back then, and am still a novice with some experience now. I'd still feel better...

 

[bajaedition]

when the liquid guys first started to get big

we all jumped on board and our results improved, without starters, but back then dry yeast were not as reliable as liquid yeast. The dry guys have upped their game since then

now, a huge part of the liqiud yeast appeal was they were telling us a pack (or vial) had enough yeast for 5 gallons, but a lot of us were brewing 10 gallons. to save money we started making starters to double the yeast

the liquid yeast guys told us to stop and just buy their yeast, the dry yeat guys told us to buy their yeast saying how cheap it was and how improved it was

well the 5 gallon guys started messing with starters and noticed a dramatic improvement in their beers, both in fermentation times and in lack of off flavors caused by poor yeast strength or amount.
5 gallon guys started making 1 liter batches and the benefit was the yeast was pumped when it hit the wort.

Now days you can go to the Yeast or white lab sites and see discussions on making starters, a complete turn around from a few years back

MARKETING PLOY, if you can not beat them then join them is what the liquid guys are spouting all about and the dry guys are still spouting about storage life and ease of pitching.

So what we have seen in the last 25 years is improvement of dry yeast, the rise of liquid yeast. The marketing of these yeast strains and the public going out and experimenting because they wanted more. The manufacturers of the yeast products change their marketing to match what the public had found out.

Seeing as the manufacturers are the experts, and the experts have a vested interest in the manufacturers, it is easy to see why they spout off with what they do.

want to read some funny stuff, read a home brew book written in the 80s, and compare it to todays methods of home brewing.

when we study yeast we learn that to get the results from it we want a ratio of cells to wort when we pitch, we want the yeast ot be healthy and active when pitched, We want to pitch at certain temperatures to keep from getting off flavors.
Starters help with those first 2 points, weather dry or liquid.

A proper sized starter, with a specific gravity that between .035 and .040 will improve any beer weather you start with dry or liquid yeast

You cannot argue that, you can argue if you even need a starter, and the answer is NO, you do not need a starter with any beer or any style of yeast. But if you want to IMPROVE your beer and your brewing technique, I strongly ADVICE you to experiment with starters and LEARN more about brewing beer.
If bound by words of the experts you are just babbling bout the tech of the moment. Remember scientist are rewriting tech every day because they EXPERIMENT every day.

Any one here still own a Tube TV or a Cassette tape player?

 

[chickypad]

the reason I avoid forums is that there are always so many guys who want to argue a point to the ground in their view

hello this is the kettle , you must be the pot?

I see we all agree about the benefits of starters with liquid yeast. The main draw for me is the wider selection of strains. For the few strains of dry I use regularly (S05 and Notty) I get excellent results rehydrating. You're right though, folks should find out for themselves. OP, if you really want to do a proper trial with dry yeast then split a batch. Pitch a starter in one, rehydrated yeast in the other - both at proper pitch rates and fermented under the same conditions. You can compare the fermentations, the attenuation, and most importantly a side by side taste test.

 

[kombat]

I've brewed over 50 batches of beer so far, and I noticed a big difference once I started properly rehydrating my dry yeast. When I say "properly," I don't just mean stirring it into some water then pitching it, I mean actually measuring out the proper amount of water (10 mL per 1 g of yeast, or 115 mL for an 11.5g packet) and making sure it's at the proper temperature (between 77 - 84° F). I cover the measuring cup with cling-wrap to protect it and leave it for the 30 minutes.

You're supposed to pitch yeast into wort that is no more than 10 degrees off from its rehydration temperature, but during that 30 minutes, the temperature comes down to ambient, ending up at the perfect pitching temperature.

Once I started actually measuring out the water volume and nailing the temperature (I aim for 80° F), I noticed my fermentations take off much more quickly and aggressively.