stale / sour / clove-like: Off Flavor - Ain't no Hefe

[Catnip_X07]

Well, I don’t know where to begin or how to explain it. I had a great run of brewing pretty awesome beers this past fall/winter. But now I’ve brewed three beers this summer and they have all ended up with the same issue – Taste hint of sour upfront (reminds me of bret), turns to clove-like, then a stale, dry finish. These all smell of a hint of sherry like odor covered up with clove (my wife thinks maybe banana?.

#1 – American Wheat – 5 Gallon split into two fermenters – one with US05 (fermented at 69F) and one dumped onto a cake of Kolsch yeast (fermented at 67F). Kolsch beer turned out excellent and fermented at 60F.

#2 – Oktoberfest – 5 gallon fermented with White Labs Oktoberfest strain at 58F.

#3 – Pale Ale – 5 gallon fermented at 67F with US05.

NONE of these beers exhibited any observable infections (no weird scum or bubbles on top). No watery or sweet-vinegary taste (I can identify that with no problems). Each batch with this off taste/odor was all fermented in different fermenters in different areas of the house. I’m at a loss on this. What is this (I presume an infection?). I was careful with water profiles and basement temp does not fluctuate.

The taste/odor occurred in the fermenter and has not gotten better with time (kegged Pale Ale, bottled Am Wheat, Oktober going thru lagering)

To throw something else out there – this is the 3rd summer we’ve been at our new house. I didn’t brew during the first summer so last year was the first summer brew. The beers last summer exhibited the same characteristics that these beers are doing now (I thought it may have been attributed to our well water so I changed to using RO water with salt additions). The beers in the fall/winter of each year turned out great. No changes to the brewing process during either season and sanitation has remained constant.

This is perplexing. The changes in the season make me want to think something is airborne in the summer, but that's trending towards being paranoid. Any ideas on what it is?

 

[ncbrewer]

Sour sounds like an infection. Sherry and stale sound like oxidized. Summer-only does kind of sound like something airborne, maybe. I had an infection that seemed to be from handling the crushed grain too close to the fermenter. Maybe there has been some change that you didn't realize or didn't think was significant.

 

[Catnip_X07]

I thought of oxidation too due to the sherry and stale like qualities, yet how would oxidation occur from kettle to fermenter? I'm open to any possibilities.

 

[ncbrewer]

Just a shot in the dark - maybe mold or mildew?

 

[kh54s10]

I thought of oxidation too due to the sherry and stale like qualities, yet how would oxidation occur from kettle to fermenter? I'm open to any possibilities.

Oxidation would happen only after fermentation. If you ferment with a large headspace and long time oxygen will eventually mix with the co2 and enter the beer.

Any introduction of air in the transfer of the beer to the bottling bucket then from the bottling bucket to the bottles, or between the fermenter and the keg can oxidize the beer.

If oxidation I think the taste would get worse over time.

Any changes in your water between the winter and summer? I know in my town the water tastes great in the winter and not so good at the end of the summer. I filter my water through a charcoal filter and the taste does not transfer to the beer.

If none of the above it seems like an infection of some kind.

 

[Catnip_X07]

No significant changes in water per our water reports that I send off twice a year. I've been using RO water exclusively since last summer and adding salts. The Oktoberfest was fermented in a 6 gallon better bottle so headspace was limited; the pale ale was fermented in a 6.5 gallon bucket with a garbage can liner method I saw in BYO several issues back (food grade - and i've done this a few times before with no issues). The wheat batches were done in buckets where one was dumped on top of a Kolsch that had no issues. Granted these were 2.5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon bucket so plausible for oxidation to occur after fermentation.

I'm not ruling out infections or the mold/mildew - just not sure where the sanitation issues are arising. One thing that I can recall is that i haven't cleaned out the ball valve on my kettle in a long time, but figured heat contact would kill everything during the boil. yet then again the wheat beer was done via mini-mash and i used a smaller kettle.

Aside from a clean room or starting over with new equipment, I think i'm going to scrub everything and put the stainless steel parts in my oven for a few hours to sterilize the equipment. Going to clean, bleach and then boil the silicon hose. I tested my starsan and it's in range for PH effectiveness. Not sure what else there is to correct sanitation issues.

In each version of beer i've cooled them off in different methods - one via sink/ice bath, one in the garage overnight and the other with a cleaned immersion chiller (at 15 minutes left of the boil). I may throw the IC in the oven too if it'll hold up.

 

[ncbrewer]

No significant changes in water per our water reports that I send off twice a year. I've been using RO water exclusively since last summer and adding salts. The Oktoberfest was fermented in a 6 gallon better bottle so headspace was limited; the pale ale was fermented in a 6.5 gallon bucket with a garbage can liner method I saw in BYO several issues back (food grade - and i've done this a few times before with no issues). Was this thoroughly sanitized? The wheat batches were done in buckets where one was dumped on top of a Kolsch that had no issues. Possibly minor issues that got worse with the next batch? Granted these were 2.5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon bucket so plausible for oxidation to occur after fermentation. I think this would be ok if not left for an unusually long time.

I'm not ruling out infections or the mold/mildew - just not sure where the sanitation issues are arising. Note: my mold/mildew comment was really a shot in the dark - no back-up for this, just a thought. One thing that I can recall is that i haven't cleaned out the ball valve on my kettle in a long time, but figured heat contact would kill everything during the boil. I have no experience with this, but I've read several HBT threads about problems with this. yet then again the wheat beer was done via mini-mash and i used a smaller kettle.

Aside from a clean room or starting over with new equipment, I think i'm going to scrub everything and put the stainless steel parts in my oven for a few hours to sterilize the equipment. Going to clean, bleach and then boil the silicon hose. I tested my starsan and it's in range for PH effectiveness. Not sure what else there is to correct sanitation issues. Sometimes bleach will kill the infection, but not always. When I had an infection, it didn't work - had to replace equipment.

In each version of beer i've cooled them off in different methods - one via sink/ice bath, one in the garage overnight and the other with a cleaned immersion chiller (at 15 minutes left of the boil). Overnight cooling is pretty common, but sanitation must be really good. I may throw the IC in the oven too if it'll hold up.

Good luck.

 

[Catnip_X07]

Took apart the valve and it was in definite need of cleaning. As I was going thru every piece of equipment that the beer touched, the one item that may have been duplicated in these past three brews vs the others was the use of a nylon strainer bag for the hops. Very possible i reused it in all three batches (but would have though heat from the boil would have killed it off). i'm still going to sterlize the equipment as much as possible, use a new strainer, and see what happens.

 

[jabba11]

I had something similar once and replaced my siphon and bottling bucket etc. Unless it was a coincidence it was the culprit. Ruined a hefe and a saisonand a Belgian wit but is gone and never came back.