Ssbrewtech mash tun heating

[zoned_post_meridiem]

I'm close to pulling the trigger on a 20g infuSSion mash tun from Ssbrewtech, but have a question about the heating element accessory (https://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/accessories/products/mtss-temp-control-for-infussion-mash-tun). I'll be doing no-sparge mashes for 5.5 or 10 gallon batches, hoping to be able to recirculate (with the recirc manifold) during most of the mash. Would the heating element be sufficient to maintain temperature during recirculation? I don't need perfect precision, but within 1-2 degrees would be nice.

 

[Zooksta]

You're probably going to lose too much heat in your pump and lines outside of the MT that the MTSS won't be able to keep up. I bought the MTSS with the 20 gallon infussion and feel it is pretty much worthless, it may work better with the 10 gallon, but not sure.

If you want to recirculate you should look into a RIMS system to go with the mash tun.

 

[augiedoggy]

And from a practical/ voice of reason standpoint if you have a rims to control and maintain mash temps, a bulky heavy expensive insulated tun really isnt going to do much...

 

[Smellyglove]

And from a practical/ voice of reason standpoint if you have a rims to control and maintain mash temps, a bulky heavy expensive insulated tun really isnt going to do much...

I use a HERMS and love my Infussion. Less heat lost is better in every case. Keeps everything really stable and nice. And I also let my mash sit for 15 minutes after dough in before pump on, and it really helps. Steady temps all over the place.

 

[zoned_post_meridiem]

I use a HERMS and love my Infussion. Less heat lost is better in every case. Keeps everything really stable and nice. And I also let my mash sit for 15 minutes after dough in before pump on, and it really helps. Steady temps all over the place.

I wonder if I could do a modified HERMS setup. With no-sparge, I'll have an idle boil kettle during mash anyway, so something like starting with half of the (no-sparge) volume in MLT, half in the boil kettle, and then recirculate slowly with the boil kettle set to mash temp. It's not strictly HERMS ... but it'd be ... something.

Or just do a quick Vorlauf at the end of a basic no-sparge and not worry about any of this

 

[FunkedOut]

Curious, and not to derail the thread but, why do you let it sit so long before pumping?

Back on topic. I don’t think the MTSS will be able to replenish the heat lost through the pump and lines.
I have a 10gal tun and use a RIMS tube with a 120V 1800W element.
I can raise the temp 10* in 10 minutes.

 

[Smellyglove]

Curious, and not to derail the thread but, why do you let it sit so long before pumping?

Back on topic. I don’t think the MTSS will be able to replenish the heat lost through the pump and lines.
I have a 10gal tun and use a RIMS tube with a 120V 1800W element.
I can raise the temp 10* in 10 minutes.

To let the grainbed settle naturally so I get good flow. If I start the pump to early it's easier to get a lower flow due to the pump sucking small particles through the unsettled grainbed which will cover the false bottom if they are not small enough to get through it. Also the flour gets time to convert before I start the pump, further priming the grainbed for good flow. With poor flow I get less filtration and well.. flow.. and also slower temperature ramps, and husks can get ripped apart if I bump the flow because it's naturally low.

 

[Zooksta]

Or just do a quick Vorlauf at the end of a basic no-sparge and not worry about any of this

This is what I do without any issues, except I batch sparge. Just preheat the mash tun, and you should be good for 60 minutes.

 

[zoned_post_meridiem]

Turns out, SS had my question answered .. and confirms what everyone else said: https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/e...mitigate-temp-loss-in-a-re-circulation-setup-

 

[Zooksta]

What's funny is I had an email from ssbrewtech this morning for their new RIMS system that's coming out soon. Looks like it will be quite expensive though, especially if you have to use their controller...

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/pages/the-workshop?mc_cid=c0d591989e&mc_eid=130d9206ac

 

[augiedoggy]

I use a HERMS and love my Infussion. Less heat lost is better in every case. Keeps everything really stable and nice. And I also let my mash sit for 15 minutes after dough in before pump on, and it really helps. Steady temps all over the place.

This is just my take on it and everyone has a different opinion so please dont think im trying to argue here.

Nothing wrong with using multiple forms of heat control some use gas and electric together to heat thier kettle.. It wont hurt but the selling point of the insulated tun is to maintain mash temps and prevent them from falling...To most people this is what justifies the purchase along with the durability of stainless.

The point of a rims or herms is too adjust, maintain and even increase mash temps.. All im saying is from a performance gain aspect and unless your brewing outside in the dead of winter the herms is canceling out the largest benefit of the ss tun and leaving the disadvantages like the $$, weight and difficult cleanup.. Lets put it this way Would you wear a raincoat indoors? Its less moisture allowed in right? Probably not because the building is more than sufficient to keep you warm and dry.

I have steady temps in both my systems too since im constantly recirculating liquid at the proper temps through my mash... if ones has uneven temps doing this I would question the flowrate and suspect channeling myself. I do brew indoors. I start recirculating right away but at a very low flow rate and slowly increase it over the first few minutes and then turn on my rims element once the grainbed has settled from the flow.

 

[augiedoggy]

What's funny is I had an email from ssbrewtech this morning for their new RIMS system that's coming out soon. Looks like it will be quite expensive though, especially if you have to use their controller...

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/pages/the-workshop?mc_cid=c0d591989e&mc_eid=130d9206ac

Its odd that they mention their rims uses an incolony element yet the custom rims they show uses a standard non incolony polished stainless element?

 

[FunkedOut]

Its odd that they mention their rims uses an incolony element yet the custom rims they show uses a standard non incolony polished stainless element?

Incoloy is “stainless.” How can you tell by looking at that picture that it is not incoloy?

 

[augiedoggy]

Incoloy is “stainless.” How can you tell by looking at that picture that it is not incoloy?

incolony stainless is treated and has a dull mat dark gray finish like these.. I have both types of elements.

https://www.omega.com/googlebase/pr...GLe5KSiVDfmGtwLXrhVdJzmoZV4CTlNUaAoAFEALw_wcB

https://www.supplyhouse.com/AO-Smit...K62KL8b-kzosWhuXRyAfZVqsqpbpsQGoaAvuTEALw_wcB

https://www.amici.com.ph/products/heating-elements/heating-element-incoloy-screw-6.0kW-240V-13.5

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I wonder if I could do a modified HERMS setup. With no-sparge, I'll have an idle boil kettle during mash anyway, so something like starting with half of the (no-sparge) volume in MLT, half in the boil kettle, and then recirculate slowly with the boil kettle set to mash temp. It's not strictly HERMS ... but it'd be ... something.

Or just do a quick Vorlauf at the end of a basic no-sparge and not worry about any of this

Yep, this is called Kettle RIMS where your boil kettle is basically being used as a RIMS. From what I've read, it's a pretty nice way to go. The only beef I've seen is that some people have issues getting some grain particles in the boil kettle during re circulation. I've always wondered if a short wait after dough in, followed by a brief vorlauf, prior to re-circulation would mitigate that.

 

[zoned_post_meridiem]

Yep, this is called Kettle RIMS where your boil kettle is basically being used as a RIMS. From what I've read, it's a pretty nice way to go. The only beef I've seen is that some people have issues getting some grain particles in the boil kettle during re circulation. I've always wondered if a short wait after dough in, followed by a brief vorlauf, prior to re-circulation would mitigate that.

Thanks -- I knew the concept existed, just didn't know the proper name to search for. Though the more I read about it, the more a simple single-step mash with brief vorlauf at the end appeals to me.

 

[Smellyglove]

This is just my take on it and everyone has a different opinion so please dont think im trying to argue here.

Nothing wrong with using multiple forms of heat control some use gas and electric together to heat thier kettle.. It wont hurt but the selling point of the insulated tun is to maintain mash temps and prevent them from falling...To most people this is what justifies the purchase along with the durability of stainless.

The point of a rims or herms is too adjust, maintain and even increase mash temps.. All im saying is from a performance gain aspect and unless your brewing outside in the dead of winter the herms is canceling out the largest benefit of the ss tun and leaving the disadvantages like the $$, weight and difficult cleanup.. Lets put it this way Would you wear a raincoat indoors? Its less moisture allowed in right? Probably not because the building is more than sufficient to keep you warm and dry.

I have steady temps in both my systems too since im constantly recirculating liquid at the proper temps through my mash... if ones has uneven temps doing this I would question the flowrate and suspect channeling myself. I do brew indoors. I start recirculating right away but at a very low flow rate and slowly increase it over the first few minutes and then turn on my rims element once the grainbed has settled from the flow.

I see your points. But why not have a better insulated mash tun if you want one?

I do christmas dinner sous vide for 36 hours straight too in that mash tun, in a cold basement. And the mash tun has a center drain which is sloped, so 0 loss to trub in the MT, the lid can rest on the handle. My mash-out herms-temp is lower than without the insulation, the warmer the mash the more heat is lost etc.. I went from a G2 Blichmann mash tun to this and I couldn't be happier. Didn't need to add a sight glass on the outside either since it's labeled on the inside.

 

[FunkedOut]

...My mash-out herms-temp is lower than without the insulation, the warmer the mash the more heat is lost etc..

I can perform step mashes in a reasonable amount of time with a 120V (1800W) element RIMS because I’m not losing as much heat from the tun.

 

[augiedoggy]

I can perform step mashes in a reasonable amount of time with a 120V (1800W) element RIMS because I’m not losing as much heat from the tun.

I also use an 1800w rims but with a regular stainless kettle for a mashtun. I can step the step about 2.5 degrees per minute this way currently. being my rims runs at 20% max to maintain a steady temp once reached, in my environment I dont think a larger tun I would have to carry downstairs and outside to dump into my compost bin would be worth the hassle for me. I get it though its not the same situation for everyone.

 

[FunkedOut]

I also use an 1800w rims but with a regular stainless kettle for a mashtun. I can step the step about 2.5 degrees per minute this way currently. being my rims runs at 20% max to maintain a steady temp once reached, in my environment I dont think a larger tun I would have to carry downstairs and outside to dump into my compost bin would be worth the hassle for me. I get it though its not the same situation for everyone.

That’s a good ramp rate.
I’m about half that with a 0.5 gallon per minute flow rate.
I have opened up my mill gap a bit to increase flow rate. After several brews now, I’m ready to increase the pump size. I was contemplating 2 gallons per minute.
What’s your flow rate?

 

[augiedoggy]

That’s a good ramp rate.
I’m about half that with a 0.5 gallon per minute flow rate.
I have opened up my mill gap a bit to increase flow rate. After several brews now, I’m ready to increase the pump size. I was contemplating 2 gallons per minute.
What’s your flow rate?

Kind of off topic but..
My flow rate on my flow meter gauge is always between 1.4 and 2 gallons per minute. (usually about 1.8) I use a $20 tan 24vdc food grade pump with an unrestricted flow rate of 3.2gpm.
I think what allows me to do this with the .030 mill gap is the finer 30" coiled stainless braid I got from a dishwasher line I use attached to my diptube under my bayou false bottom. it acts as a secondary last chance filter and has enough surface area that it allows whatever gets through the main FB to settle on the bottom around and between it to not clog it up. when I say I can step 2.5 degree per minute I mean thats the rate the temps at the rims exit keep climbing at. I realize its taking longer for the actual mash to uniformly achieve these step temps.

 

[FunkedOut]

Ok, gotcha. I was giving my temp ramp rate in the mash tun.
My RIMS exit almost immediately climbs up to the set temp, probably because of my slower flow.
Increasing my flow should allow me to input more heat.

Getting this back on topic, regardless of how much heat you can put into the system, minimizing the heat loss means less of the heat you can put in, goes to replacing the heat lost, and is contributing to raising mash temps.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ok, gotcha. I was giving my temp ramp rate in the mash tun.
My RIMS exit almost immediately climbs up to the set temp, probably because of my slower flow.
Increasing my flow should allow me to input more heat.

Getting this back on topic, regardless of how much heat you can put into the system, minimizing the heat loss means less of the heat you can put in, goes to replacing the heat lost, and is contributing to raising mash temps.

the temp rises at the same rate in the mashtun but its in layers from top to bottom so it takes longer depending on flow rate before the temp at the rims output reaches the probe at the output of the mashtun.. thats a limitation of flowrate which I wont increase due to other negative effects like channeling.

The insulation just isnt needed performance wise with a rims.. That was my point behind the graph testing I did with brucontrol showing my 1800w element never fired more than 20% power momentarily for the entire hour of mashing to maintain mash temps on an 11 gallon brew mash in my thin walled bayou mash tun. thats what 350W max of extra momentary power consumed during the mash (which was much less in reality when averaged)? For me it is not worth the hundreds for the mashtun and the larger brewing table and having to scoop it into buckets instead of just carrying my mashtun outside and dumping it in the compost and rinsing it in the sink like I do now.. To some it may make sense but the math or process didnt to me. In fact I had my insulated beverage cooler with a rims in the beginning and did away with it because it no longer was worth the hassle to me... I noticed no appreciable changes in how my rims works when switching to a non insulated tun at the time honestly. I did notice a jump in efficiency with my larger diameter false bottom on my new tun.

I also almost never step mash so...