SS Brewtech 3V RIMS is it worth it?

[Jako]

looking at buying a new complete system. i have looked other brands but 4.5k -5.5k is outrageous. why is this so cheap compared to other brands? even after adding pumps and all the bits its still under 3.5k. Am i looking at this wrong? any input would be great.

 

[augiedoggy]

looking at buying a new complete system. i have looked other brands but 4.5k -5.5k is outrageous. why is this so cheap compared to other brands? even after adding pumps and all the bits its still under 3.5k. Am i looking at this wrong? any input would be great.

... Depends on how you want to look at it. You pay dearly for the complete bundle instead of getting a discount like you would think you should. The Bottom line is they are hoping the impatient folks who just want everything at once will pay for this convenience but its still far from a complete plug in play system..

If it was 3.5k (which its not) 3.5k is still about $1,500-2k more than buying everything separately and a little diy putting it together I have a 3v rims system controlled by a windows 10 touchscreen pc and brucontrol, 3 pumps 3 elements and 3 16gallon stainless kettles (capable of both 5 and 10gallon sized brews with no drawbacks) a rims, duda 20 plate chiller.... AND 3 stainless conical fermenters temp controlled with a Glycol chiller and heat wraps a motorized cereal killer mill with stand... it all cost me between 2k and $2500 with accessories and nets a brewhouse efficiency of 91% average.

Now lets look at the SS system... its 4,200 to upgrade to the size kettle to handle 10 gallon as well as 5... and for the actual 3v controller to handle everything without unplugging and moving things around during the brew process you now up to $4800... and thats with 1 conical fermenter. no chiller, no grain mill and no chiller for the conical (which comes with the jacket and coil for missing chiller) on the plus side everything matches so if its about cosmetics you have that covered for the most part but consider this....

For 4800 you can built a system using real bottom draining polished kettles with real sanitary tri clamp fittings like these https://conical-fermenter.com/15-Ga...-Recirculating-Fitting-and-Bottom-Outlet.html
and this boil kettle complete with tangential whirlpool port.
https://conical-fermenter.com/BK15TW-TI-LL.html
with multiple fermenters like these,
https://conical-fermenter.com/12-Gallon-Conical-Fermenter.html

These are all thicker gauge polished stainless not the brushed finish which is harder to clean. and the fittings are welded sanitary triclamp which really isnt a big deal but it is an upgrade with no threaded fitting to have to keep clean.

and still come out ahead if you wanted to.. just my take on it though...

 

[Jako]

... Depends on how you want to look at it. You pay dearly for the complete bundle instead of getting a discount like you would think you should. The Bottom line is they are hoping the impatient folks who just want everything at once will pay for this convenience but its still far from a complete plug in play system..

If it was 3.5k (which its not) 3.5k is still about $1,500-2k more than buying everything separately and a little diy putting it together I have a 3v rims system controlled by a windows 10 touchscreen pc and brucontrol, 3 pumps 3 elements and 3 16gallon stainless kettles (capable of both 5 and 10gallon sized brews with no drawbacks) a rims, duda 20 plate chiller.... AND 3 stainless conical fermenters temp controlled with a Glycol chiller and heat wraps a motorized cereal killer mill with stand... it all cost me between 2k and $2500 with accessories and nets a brewhouse efficiency of 91% average.

Now lets look at the SS system... its 4,200 to upgrade to the size kettle to handle 10 gallon as well as 5... and for the actual 3v controller to handle everything without unplugging and moving things around during the brew process you now up to $4800... and thats with 1 conical fermenter. no chiller, no grain mill and no chiller for the conical (which comes with the jacket and coil for missing chiller) on the plus side everything matches so if its about cosmetics you have that covered for the most part but consider this....

For 4800 you can built a system using real bottom draining polished kettles with real sanitary tri clamp fittings like these https://conical-fermenter.com/15-Ga...-Recirculating-Fitting-and-Bottom-Outlet.html
and this boil kettle complete with tangential whirlpool port.
https://conical-fermenter.com/BK15TW-TI-LL.html
with multiple fermenters like these,
https://conical-fermenter.com/12-Gallon-Conical-Fermenter.html

These are all thicker gauge polished stainless not the brushed finish which is harder to clean. and the fittings are welded sanitary triclamp which really isnt a big deal but it is an upgrade with no threaded fitting to have to keep clean.

and still come out ahead if you wanted to.. just my take on it though...

that all makes sense to me, for me its where do i start. i would assume the control panel right? i was looking at the Electric brewery website and the prices looked insane i know its Canadian but still.

 

[Jako]

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections/pid-controlled-diy/products/30a-pid-complete-control-panel-kit

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/ss-tc-brew-kettle x3

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections/elements-diy/products/element-assembly-complete-kit x2

i plan on using the electric brewery guide with a few changes to build out my system. at this rate i have lots left over with my original budget to buy parts i have over looked or make some upgrades. am i on the right track now? i feel like it. the Blichman kettles are over priced and i could save a bunch using the SS kettles. i thought about it for a long time and 10 gallon batches are just not my thing.

 

[augiedoggy]

there are many options when it comes to control panels some are more expensive than others, some use more expensive components and some do not. DIY is by far the cheapest but its not for everyone.

kals panel is nice but its one of the pricier builds. Just to give you an idea of the spectrum or pricerange, when I built the 3 element 3 pump +timer control panel you see pictured in my avatar I did it myself for under $300.

All in all the kits arent bad they can certainly make things easier and if you have the budget then why not. The one you linked seems fairly reasonable really. Also you have to factor in having the support from vendors like Ebrew.. Its something that might end up paying for itself if you run into issues.

You might want to also look at pricing the components out on amazon or ebay too and decide if you want to build the panel the way you want. one of the moderators here Doug is usually very helpful with electrical questions and wiring diagrams once you share what your looking for.

for example, lets look at this pt100 temp probe make by DTC

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections...quid-tight-rtd-sensor-1-5-inch-1-2-npt-thread
its $32 plus you have to buy the cable ($18 for cheap stainless braided cable) and then pay for shipping
total cost $50+ shipping..

now here is the same DTC sensor that comes sealed in a DTC bag with an upgraded telfon cable which is much better quality than the stainless braided cables many come with for $9.99 shipped. The difference is it doesnt have the 99 cent connector soldered onto the end if you want to have it unplug from the control panel.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RTD-PT100-...497101?hash=item2879f082cd:g:LxEAAOSwL35cktCG

now lets take another random component like this 63a main power contactor..

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections...ucts/220v-2p-63a-110v-coil-din-rail-contactor
$25 + shipping so roughly $30

heres the same generic contactor only with a different branding label

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-Contact...056291&hash=item281d99f6ed:g:AzIAAOSwimdXpB2r
$16.32 with free shipping...

I actually used these contactors below for $9.50 in one of my builds a couple years ago and they have worked flawlessly
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TOCT1-2P-6...194170?hash=item3cf852807a:g:c-wAAOSw2xRYWqNF

My point here is just to show you is a kit is say $2,000 from a one stop vendor, you can almost guarantee you can shop around and get all the components for closer to $1,000. Sometimes they will be the same components and sometimes an equivalent thats not from the same manufaturer. Mypin td4 pid for example work very well and have manual boil control ability. They cost about $35 shipped vs some other temp controllers which cost upwards of $70-$100 each.

I was in your shoes and all this was overwhelming to me about 6 years ago.. I just wanted to buy one built because I knew so little about everything but im very glad I didnt. If something fails or acts up I know what to do..


Just so you can see how far 2 grand can go. Here is the latest panel I built, which controls a 3bbl brewhouse 4 elements in each kettle and 2 elements in the rims and it runs off a simple arduino with Brucontrol software and a windows 10 pc and 26" touchscreen. All the components 50v or higher are UL listed and its built with a lot of safety redundancies to prevent accidents and limit current draw.

Good luck with your system, whatever you decide to do!

 

[augiedoggy]

BTW the older generation of blichman brand electric controllers were on clearance to make way for the new line they just released, if you can find them, they are a good value right now you can use multiple single element controllers together as one control system you just have to come up with a way to power them all individually or simultaneously.

 

[mongoose33]

You won't do better than to have @augiedoggie give you advice on this. He was very helpful to me when I was setting my system up, though it's pieced-together as opposed to having bought a complete system from a vendor like SSBt or Spike.

If money is an issue--and for whom is it not?--here are some ideas. It may not be the way you want to go, but it can give you an idea as to a different way to accomplish this.

I don't understand the "3-vessel" RIMS thing. I have a boil kettle, a mash tun, and a RIMS tube. No 3rd kettle for HLT, which I think is absolutely unnecessary. In fact, I think of that RIMS tube as my 3rd vessel.

I heat up my strike water in my BK. I then pump it over to the MT using my Riptide pump. I switch a couple hoses over, and then use that Riptide to recirculate through the RIMS tube. When it's time to lauter off the wort, I just pump it back to the BK. Can't imagine what a HLT would add to the equation--and I can't imagine what value the additional kettle and heating element brings. Already have a kettle w/ heating element.

*****

I built a control panel to handle the 5500-watt element in the BK. It's the eBIAB panel from Auber Instruments. (Here is a list of their DIY panel kits). I don't do eBIAB, it was just a panel to control the element and the pumps, and potentially later on, use it to control a mash temp. I don't do that, but figured having a way to control pumps and such was a good idea. As you'll see, it isn't something I use any longer.

BTW, they have a new kit which combines the control of the BK element with a RIMS controller. I might have gone that direction if it had been available last summer....

Anyway, so I had this kit for the panel. I was able to put it together with a little assistance from here. It's nice, including the keylock which when locked and key removed prevents a brewing buddy from deciding to turn on the element to see what happens.... :O

I think I have $450 into that. BTW, if you buy one of these, get the DIY wiring kit. It's not that expensive and will save you a lot of screwing around getting the right gauge wires and such. Wish it had been available when I bought mine....

*****

So then the RIMS. Bought the tube and controller and element from BrewHardware. It's in the neighborhood of $320 for it.

*****

I already had a 10-gallon Spike kettle. Had to add a few ports to it, including for the 5500-Watt element. I had a spare 10-gallon kettle a buddy had given to me. Had to add a couple ports to include camlocks, simply drilled the holes with a step bit and used the bulkhead fittings bobby at Brewhardware sells. They are as solid as welded, they're amazing.

*****

So--I had about $400 in the eBREW panel, another $320 in the RIMS. I had to add probably another....$80 in power cords to hook up the big element as well as the RIMS. (People always seem to forget the cords. ).

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume my BK and my MT are $400 apiece. They're cheaper, but that's high end. Both are 10-gallon. You could up that to 20 gallon if you wanted, just add the difference in price.

The Riptide is $200.

I use camlock fittings. I'm kind of a camlock junkie, I have a ton of them for every configuration. Figure $100 for camlocks and silicone hoses. Figure another $100 for additional camlock male and female connectors, $35 for a sight glass for the MT...

I have a very good counterflow chiller from Stout tanks. It's about $250 with shipping.

Add another $50 for other fittings and such, and $70 for the 5500-w element (brewhardware, again).

What does this all add up to?

If my math is correct, $2370. Maybe the bling factor is worth another couple/three grand, I don't know, but it's not to me.

****

Maybe the stainless table is of value, I don't know. Mine is on a wooden bench. Here's a pic showing the setup. It took me a LONG time to finally figure out how to set it up to use a single pump and just move hoses back and forth. No plumbing, no hard-piping, and minimum wort losses.

Further, I decided controlling the pumps from the wall panel was very inconvenient when I'm in a hurry to shut them off. So I hung the Riptide on the side of the bench with a couple of regular switches to control the Riptide and my Mark II which I use for cleaning the conical. (all this is plugged into GFCI outlets).

I brewed with this setup on Saturday; took me 5 hours from start to finish. That was pumping water into the BK, starting it heating, weighing out grain, etc. etc. There's only one pump so cleanup on that is easy (I recirc hot PBW solution through it and the BK, then rinse well with hot water).

I point all this out not because my way is the best way--it is for me, YMMV--but because it's a far lower cost approach than buying the ready-made setups from the big boys. I do have a conical fermenter (a Spike CF10), a Penguin glycol chiller, and it seems to me that I am able to afford those last two big-ticket items because I didn't sink $5000 into a system I could have for under $2500.

Here are some pics. The overall setup is the first one. You can see the Auber panel on the wall and next to it is the black RIMS controller. The RIMS controller plugs into a 20-amp 120v circuit, the Auber panel into a 30-amp 240-v receptacle just behind the fan on the right. Power cords are disconnected and looped over the top of the panels.

The closeup of the pump switches is the second. "Left" is the Riptide; "Right" is a Mark II pump I use to recirculate cleaning solution in my conical. Both switches are easy to get to. Both draw power from the CFCI receptacle that's left of the RIMS controller.

The third pic shows the hoses reconnected for the RIMS recirculation. The hose out of the bottom of the pump will be moved to the lower valve of the BK to pump the wort into that when the time comes. When that's done, that hose will be connected to the inlet of the counterflow chiller, and the hose at the top of the riptide will be connected to the lower valve on the BK.

Again, this works for me, your needs and wants may be different than mine. All I know is it took me about 9 months of diddling with pump locations, switches, hoses, and all that to end up here.

Good luck regardless; perhaps the above will give you some ideas, or even do the opposite, confirm what you already wanted to do.

 

[Jako]

thanks all the information. I have never thought about using 2 vessels and having one do double duty. As of now i am leaning more on the Herms system for me it looks like i could run into less issues. i tend to get lazy and make mistakes and i feel like it would be more user friendly.

Do we have any build guides floating around on the forums? or a good source for a first time builder?

found a few, i guess i just need to decide what i want to get out of it. a timer looks like a gimmick and i can see why having pump switches on the panel is a bit of a waste. its hard for me to think of how it will be used since the brewery is 100% and only bones right now. i will add some pictures shortly.

 

[Jako]

This is what I am working with right now..

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7ZXDDSmSnBjWndXM8

I missed the back wall but just imagine plugs I bet I have the plans for it as well someplace

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AcJznBEJB5hUcSVN9

I might start a build thread, I am terrible with grammar and spelling so I can hardly get my point across half the time and it still make sense.

 

[mongoose33]

thanks all the information. I have never thought about using 2 vessels and having one do double duty. As of now i am leaning more on the Herms system for me it looks like i could run into less issues. i tend to get lazy and make mistakes and i feel like it would be more user friendly.

Here's my view of RIMS vs HERMS (and remember, I have a RIMS).

The disadvantages of a HERMS, IMO, are these:

1. You need an extra kettle
2. You need a way to heat it, and potentially a controller for that.
3. You need some sort of tubing in the kettle through which you will run your wort.
4. It's more difficult to control temps quickly. If you overshoot, then you're diddling with flow.
5. If you really want to dial in temps with HERMS, you pretty much have to control flow, not the temp of the HERMS water.
6. You need more space for it.

The disadvantages of a RIMS, IMO, are these:

1. You have to be sure you have flow through the RIMS tube before firing the element.

There's a lot of stuff out there expressing concern about scorching the wort with a RIMS. If your element is high-watt density, or the pump stops, or the RIMS tube isn't filled with wort before the element is on....yeah, you could.

IMO, those concerns are easily dealt with if you follow a simple procedure. First, position the RIMS tube so the OUT port of the tube is on top. In my case above, I have the tube mounted horizontally, the out port is on the left. Some mount it vertically, same thing. Second, always turn the pump on and get the wort recirculating before turning on the element (or, if you like, connecting the element). Three, don't turn off the pump without turning off the element.

That's it--and the last one likely doesn't matter much because as soon as the wort in the RIMS tube rises enough above the set temp, the element will stop firing.

******

There's a small learning curve to a RIMS, and I wish I had run across the three things above before my first run. The first time I plugged in the element and turned on the controller before getting the pump going--well, that's not the best idea.

But when I got the sequence down--connect hoses, turn on pump, monitor to see that bubbles are no longer coming out of the OUT port through the hose, connect and turn on the RIMS controller--it's easy-peasy. That's it.

*******

Someone, can't recall who, recently likened a HERMS system to a family station wagon, and a RIMS to a sports car. Analogy is sometimes suspect, but in this case I think it's spot on. HERMS is safe in that you'll never get pulled over for exceeding the temp limits, provided your water is near the temp you need. But not going to be as responsive as driving a stick-shift sports-car RIMS system.

*******

Both systems will work, and in the end, you have to decide what's important to you. Either way, they'll help you produce good beer.

 

[Jako]

Here's my view of RIMS vs HERMS (and remember, I have a RIMS).

The disadvantages of a HERMS, IMO, are these:

1. You need an extra kettle
2. You need a way to heat it, and potentially a controller for that.
3. You need some sort of tubing in the kettle through which you will run your wort.
4. It's more difficult to control temps quickly. If you overshoot, then you're diddling with flow.
5. If you really want to dial in temps with HERMS, you pretty much have to control flow, not the temp of the HERMS water.
6. You need more space for it.

The disadvantages of a RIMS, IMO, are these:

1. You have to be sure you have flow through the RIMS tube before firing the element.

There's a lot of stuff out there expressing concern about scorching the wort with a RIMS. If your element is high-watt density, or the pump stops, or the RIMS tube isn't filled with wort before the element is on....yeah, you could.

IMO, those concerns are easily dealt with if you follow a simple procedure. First, position the RIMS tube so the OUT port of the tube is on top. In my case above, I have the tube mounted horizontally, the out port is on the left. Some mount it vertically, same thing. Second, always turn the pump on and get the wort recirculating before turning on the element (or, if you like, connecting the element). Three, don't turn off the pump without turning off the element.

That's it--and the last one likely doesn't matter much because as soon as the wort in the RIMS tube rises enough above the set temp, the element will stop firing.

******

There's a small learning curve to a RIMS, and I wish I had run across the three things above before my first run. The first time I plugged in the element and turned on the controller before getting the pump going--well, that's not the best idea.

But when I got the sequence down--connect hoses, turn on pump, monitor to see that bubbles are no longer coming out of the OUT port through the hose, connect and turn on the RIMS controller--it's easy-peasy. That's it.

*******

Someone, can't recall who, recently likened a HERMS system to a family station wagon, and a RIMS to a sports car. Analogy is sometimes suspect, but in this case I think it's spot on. HERMS is safe in that you'll never get pulled over for exceeding the temp limits, provided your water is near the temp you need. But not going to be as responsive as driving a stick-shift sports-car RIMS system.

*******

Both systems will work, and in the end, you have to decide what's important to you. Either way, they'll help you produce good beer.

With your RIMS system do you do full volume mash almost like BIAB?

 

[mongoose33]

With your RIMS system do you do full volume mash almost like BIAB?

Yes, that's exactly what I do. I usually start with 8.25 gallons; my last brew, last weekend, had 13.5 pounds of grain.

Both of those, I'm sure, seem high, esp. compared to BIAB. I'm allowing for losses to trub, to hoses, and to dead space in the mash tun. I end up with 6+ gallons going into the fermenter, and don't worry about drawing off trub when I rack to keg.

If I were doing this with BIAB <checking my notes from when I was doing BIAB>, I'd have 7.5 gallons of water, and about 11.5 pounds of grain.

I've upped the amounts roughly 10 percent over what I'd consider a normal 5-gallon batch to require. My grain bill on this one (I'm diddling with the recipe a bit) is probably a bit high, I'll probably cut it by half a pound to a pound the next time.

 

[Jako]

Yes, that's exactly what I do. I usually start with 8.25 gallons; my last brew, last weekend, had 13.5 pounds of grain.

Both of those, I'm sure, seem high, esp. compared to BIAB. I'm allowing for losses to trub, to hoses, and to dead space in the mash tun. I end up with 6+ gallons going into the fermenter, and don't worry about drawing off trub when I rack to keg.

If I were doing this with BIAB <checking my notes from when I was doing BIAB>, I'd have 7.5 gallons of water, and about 11.5 pounds of grain.

I've upped the amounts roughly 10 percent over what I'd consider a normal 5-gallon batch to require. My grain bill on this one (I'm diddling with the recipe a bit) is probably a bit high, I'll probably cut it by half a pound to a pound the next time.

Do you take a big efficiency loss. i like the idea of 3V and high efficiency. i am moving far away from my LHBS so i plan to buy in bulk and over time that extra pound to a grain bill will add up. the idea of RIMS is not as scary since you explained it a bunch. but i do have one more question. how is the clean up with a RIMS set up? can you just flush with water like a herms coil?

do you ever feel like you are missing out on part of the process not having a sparge or is it nice you don't have to deal with another step and all the extra cost? sorry for all the questions trying to figure out what i really want/need. because in my head i just want to go all out and have it all but in reality do i need the excess, space is not an issue at all for me but like everyone cost is.

 

[mongoose33]

Do you take a big efficiency loss. i like the idea of 3V and high efficiency. i am moving far away from my LHBS so i plan to buy in bulk and over time that extra pound to a grain bill will add up.

I don't think there's a big efficiency loss. You may think that pound per brew will "add up" but you may want to do the math to decide. Suppose you do 25 brews a year. How much extra grain is that? IMO, it's just not enough to try to design a system around.

Different people have different criteria for success. I used to have really high efficiency, and at some point, I began to care more about how the beer tasted than I did about efficiency. I buy in bulk from Ritebrew, so an extra pound costs me between 75 cents and about $1.03. It's not enough for me to care that much.

I think there's a point where most new brewers are looking for ways to judge their skills, and efficiency is a way to do that. I did it. But at some point, I found myself less interested in that, once I'd achieved it, than in trying to do the very best beer I can. If I were brewing for profit, with a large operation, I'd be more focused on that.

As always, YMMV.

the idea of RIMS is not as scary since you explained it a bunch.

I had the same concerns. @augiedoggie was helpful in that, I'm just paying it forward.

but i do have one more question. how is the clean up with a RIMS set up? can you just flush with water like a herms coil?

This is the funny thing: it's really easy to clean up. I just unclamp the RIMS tube, take to the sink, and rinse it out. I use a bottle brush inside, use a small brush to brush off the element, and that's pretty much that. It's one of the cleanup tasks while the BK is coming to boil, or boiling.

do you ever feel like you are missing out on part of the process not having a sparge or is it nice you don't have to deal with another step and all the extra cost? sorry for all the questions trying to figure out what i really want/need. because in my head i just want to go all out and have it all but in reality do i need the excess, space is not an issue at all for me but like everyone cost is.

There's a funny element to all this. I started out all-grain with a cooler mash tun, I sparged, and that was the process. When I decided the only way to learn about BIAB was to actually do it, I felt like I'd left something behind. BIAB is very simple, and I'd developed all this hard-won knowledge about the traditional mash tun approach, sparging, I had data on temps and yield and so on--and BIAB made it almost all moot.

I'm guessing you're feeling a similar thing. You invested a lot of time and effort learning a specific approach, and now you're considering leaving all that detailed information behind. You also are probably wondering if it'll be as much fun mastering this as your previous techniques (yeah, it will).

I've recently been playing with different steps. I've been mashing in about 132-135, then after 10 minutes ramping up to 149. I set the temp on the RIMS controller at 149, and it raises the temp roughly a degree a minute . About 15 minutes later I'm at 149, and there it sits, never varying by as much as a degree in either direction. I'm going to try a few other ideas for mashing temps, steps, and durations, but the control this gives me is rather amazing.

It took me a while to get the setup right, which is why I posted the pics of my setup. They'll give you ideas about what you might do. Now that I have it this way, it's hard to see much more tweaking with it. The brew last Saturday was the most relaxed one I've had. No figuring which hose to use, the numbers came out good, and I have no doubt that beer, which is finally done fermenting, will be terrific.


You have to decide what your goals are. The beauty of this is hobby is everybody gets to decide what will make them happy. There's no requirement for you to do it like me or anyone else. All we can do is give you some ideas, some pros and cons, and you decide what fits your values and goals and budget. Good luck and remember: if you're not having fun doing this, you're not doing it right.

 

[Jako]

I think you are starting to sell me on the 2 vessel idea. Start to read around and thought about it I dont really want a super complex brew day. Thinking about a few of my new adventures out side in a foot of snow....

As someone who has a two vessel system what do you think about this video. It's as if the boil kettle is a rims system and it looks to me harder to mess up. You add the cost of a pump but would equal out not building a rim. The more I think of it the more I like the idea.

 

[Jako]

https://www.highgravitybrew.com/sto...ric-Wort-Hog-10-gallon-2-Vessel-445p10094.htm

I think i decided this is what i want to buy even with the table pumps and cam locks its 2,612 and shipping is 122. i could build it all myself but knowing its all just done its worth it to me.

 

[mongoose33]

https://www.highgravitybrew.com/sto...ric-Wort-Hog-10-gallon-2-Vessel-445p10094.htm

I think i decided this is what i want to buy even with the table pumps and cam locks its 2,612 and shipping is 122. i could build it all myself but knowing its all just done its worth it to me.

Then that's what you should do. I'm not hugely impressed by the approach; my system requires one pump, not two, but yes, the BK is acting as a sort of RIMS kind of idea.

I do low oxygen brewing, and as I watched him dough-in as well as have both the mash and the wort in the "RIMS" kettle open to the atmosphere, I thought: not for me. He's also using a Blichmann Therminator plate chiller which, if you are able to be sure you have no hop trub and such, will work fine. I personally would have a counterflow chiller.

But as I noted above, you have to please one person more than anyone else: yourself. If this is the system you want, go for it.

 

[Jako]

low oxygen brewing is not for me at this time. do you feel like it made a big difference? to me it looks like you run a simple system and have a very thought out process now to fill that void of sparge or control in that aspect.

my only problem about this system is not hop filter, i would end up drilling a hole and adding in a hop blocker and calling it a day.

I do plan on building my on fermenter control panel i would like to have 3 vessels and maybe unitanks one day. if my cold storage room is cold enough i can just run heat wraps on the tanks but i would like the ability to cold crash.

 

[Paulaner]

One point to also think about is where you will be say 1 or 2 years down the road. I was like you 2 years ago, where I wanted something better than a cooler, and a boil kettle. I was torn between building my own system, and purchasing a pre-built system. I felt overwhelmed at the time. I had the ability to build anything I wanted, but I did not know what I wanted in my system. I ended up purchasing a unibrau system because they were on clearance, so it made my decision rather easy. I have no regrets purchasing this, but the amount of money that I have put into my system to get it to where I wanted it, I probably have spent more than the original set-up, and other than the name on it, you would not know it's a unibrau system.

Looking back on it I would not change a thing. I say this because I learned so much over these last 2 years by brewing with it, and more importantly modifying it to where I felt as though I could make respectable beer. Now, I have been working with Stout on my final (hopefully) system. This will be a 2-vessel Low Oxygen system fully automated with bru-control, and 100% stainless piping. I now feel confident in knowing what I want and don't want in a brew system, and I am confident to build a system with this knowledge.

Now to confront the 2 or 3 vessel system. One can argue this all day long. There is more benefits than have been listed for 3 vessel in this thread, but you can search this argument all day long on this site. Brewing science shows you will produce a wort with less TBA as one example. But, like many others, I think that a correct 2 vessel set-up can produce wort right at the mark of a 3 vessel system, or maybe 1/4% lower quality, of course this is debatable and subjective, as there has been no real studies of this.

 

[mongoose33]

One point to also think about is where you will be say 1 or 2 years down the road. I was like you 2 years ago, where I wanted something better than a cooler, and a boil kettle. I was torn between building my own system, and purchasing a pre-built system. I felt overwhelmed at the time. I had the ability to build anything I wanted, but I did not know what I wanted in my system. I ended up purchasing a unibrau system because they were on clearance, so it made my decision rather easy. I have no regrets purchasing this, but the amount of money that I have put into my system to get it to where I wanted it, I probably have spent more than the original set-up, and other than the name on it, you would not know it's a unibrau system.

Looking back on it I would not change a thing. I say this because I learned so much over these last 2 years by brewing with it, and more importantly modifying it to where I felt as though I could make respectable beer. Now, I have been working with Stout on my final (hopefully) system. This will be a 2-vessel Low Oxygen system fully automated with bru-control, and 100% stainless piping. I now feel confident in knowing what I want and don't want in a brew system, and I am confident to build a system with this knowledge.

Now to confront the 2 or 3 vessel system. One can argue this all day long. There is more benefits than have been listed for 3 vessel in this thread, but you can search this argument all day long on this site. Brewing science shows you will produce a wort with less TBA as one example. But, like many others, I think that a correct 2 vessel set-up can produce wort right at the mark of a 3 vessel system, or maybe 1/4% lower quality, of course this is debatable and subjective, as there has been no real studies of this.

I still can't see the difference. If I added a 3rd vessel--a hot liquor tank--what would that get me? It would cost more for the kettle, more for the element and cordage and so on, and use up more space.

All I would be doing is pumping water from that vessel to the mash tun. But wait--I'm doing that with my boil kettle, which is acting as a HLT. And if it's acting as a HLT, then it is one, and what's the point of having that third vessel?

What am I missing here?

 

[Spartan1979]

I still can't see the difference. If I added a 3rd vessel--a hot liquor tank--what would that get me? It would cost more for the kettle, more for the element and cordage and so on, and use up more space.

All I would be doing is pumping water from that vessel to the mash tun. But wait--I'm doing that with my boil kettle, which is acting as a HLT. And if it's acting as a HLT, then it is one, and what's the point of having that third vessel?

What am I missing here?

If you're doing full volume mashes, an HLT isn't getting you anything. If you're doing fly sparging or batch sparging, then there will still be water is the HLT as you're running your wort into the kettle.

I've always fly sparged and before I got an HLT, I'd run the wort into a bucket and then dump it into the kettle when the sparge water was gone. That worked, but I prefer the wort running gently into the kettle over dumping the bucket in.

 

[Paulaner]

I still can't see the difference. If I added a 3rd vessel--a hot liquor tank--what would that get me? It would cost more for the kettle, more for the element and cordage and so on, and use up more space.

All I would be doing is pumping water from that vessel to the mash tun. But wait--I'm doing that with my boil kettle, which is acting as a HLT. And if it's acting as a HLT, then it is one, and what's the point of having that third vessel?

What am I missing here?

TBA from the direct heating of the wort, one is adding heat stress to the wort through the RIMS element. How much is the question though, this is the unknown due to the lack of studies in these scenarios. Although, with the correct setup, which includes an ULWD element, control of the power output to the element, and flow control this can be almost eliminated, still there’s direct heat being applied to the wort. Now, another argument is the ability to do multiple consecutive batches, but that is a convenient aspect, not brewing science. I am building a 2 vessel system because it fits my needs, but to say a 3 vessel system has no upside would be overlooking heat stress on your wort.

 

[mongoose33]

TBA from the direct heating of the wort, one is adding heat stress to the wort through the RIMS element. How much is the question though, this is the unknown due to the lack of studies in these scenarios. Although, with the correct setup, which includes an ULWD element, control of the power output to the element, and flow control this can be almost eliminated, still there’s direct heat being applied to the wort. Now, another argument is the ability to do multiple consecutive batches, but that is a convenient aspect, not brewing science. I am building a 2 vessel system because it fits my needs, but to say a 3 vessel system has no upside would be overlooking heat stress on your wort.

So you're saying use the third vessel in a HERMS setup, not simply to heat water? And the presumption is heat stress of the wort?

Seems unlikely to me for two reasons. One is that we boil wort for an hour using electric elements, and if heat stress were truly a thing, wouldn't we be seeing lots of discussion about that?

The second is, well, I don't see any evidence of that. My beer today is better than when I did it before, and I was using a propane burner, not an electric element.

Now, if you mean scorching the wort, a RIMS could do that if you didn't keep a flow past a firing element. But just in general? I have friends who keep bugging me to sell them my beer, a local bar owner who wants to sell it....it's hard for me to see a heat stress problem when the feedback I'm getting says otherwise.

 

[mongoose33]

If you're doing full volume mashes, an HLT isn't getting you anything. If you're doing fly sparging or batch sparging, then there will still be water is the HLT as you're running your wort into the kettle.

I've always fly sparged and before I got an HLT, I'd run the wort into a bucket and then dump it into the kettle when the sparge water was gone. That worked, but I prefer the wort running gently into the kettle over dumping the bucket in.

OK, that makes sense. I don't sparge, so it doesn't do anything for me.

If I sparged, I might just use cool water as a workaround. I've never done fly sparging, never had any interest in that But workarounds are just that, and if you saw my system, you'd see how little I like using workarounds....

 

[Paulaner]

So you're saying use the third vessel in a HERMS setup, not simply to heat water? And the presumption is heat stress of the wort?

Seems unlikely to me for two reasons. One is that we boil wort for an hour using electric elements, and if heat stress were truly a thing, wouldn't we be seeing lots of discussion about that?

The second is, well, I don't see any evidence of that. My beer today is better than when I did it before, and I was using a propane burner, not an electric element.

Now, if you mean scorching the wort, a RIMS could do that if you didn't keep a flow past a firing element. But just in general? I have friends who keep bugging me to sell them my beer, a local bar owner who wants to sell it....it's hard for me to see a heat stress problem when the feedback I'm getting says otherwise.

So TBA doesn’t exist because there’s no discussions about it here?

 

[mongoose33]

So TBA doesn’t exist because there’s no discussions about it here?

That might have been a reasonable response had I said "it doesn't exist because we don't discuss it here."

But since that wasn't my point--two points, in fact--your response must mean you had no response to what I actually wrote.

Well, OK. Next time you have no substantive response to someone, I suggest you take the path of not responding. Just an idea.

 

[Paulaner]

That might have been a reasonable response had I said "it doesn't exist because we don't discuss it here."

But since that wasn't my point--two points, in fact--your response must mean you had no response to what I actually wrote.

Well, OK. Next time you have no substantive response to someone, I suggest you take the path of not responding. Just an idea.

I'm not trying to be an a__hole, and I was simply saying anytime heat is applied to the wort there is heat stress present. When using a herms system this is greatly eliminated because it's a gentle heat from the coil that's transferred from the hot water. Now a correct RIMS setup can also reduce the heat stress, as for boiling, yes we have a much larger amount of stress applied. The heat stress is mentioned numerous times in Kunze starting from malting, but is of greater impact during mashing and boiling for obvious reasons. How much this affects ones beer, ultimately ends up in the shelf life of the beer. As for why it's not discussed here, I could only speculate. Most likely because it's one of the final parts of beer perfection that one would worry about. Sorry if I came off wrong, I defiantly did not mean to, I just understood your post as heat stress/TBA doesn't exist.

 

[Jako]

If you're doing full volume mashes, an HLT isn't getting you anything. If you're doing fly sparging or batch sparging, then there will still be water is the HLT as you're running your wort into the kettle.

I've always fly sparged and before I got an HLT, I'd run the wort into a bucket and then dump it into the kettle when the sparge water was gone. That worked, but I prefer the wort running gently into the kettle over dumping the bucket in.

This is how I brew now. Lol

 

[Jako]

Sooo what is TBA. I am lost in the sauce now. So far everyone has said make your own system. I feel like when you see that it probably has a lot of weight that goes along with it.

 

[Jako]

I am going to take a few steps back and really think it out. I won't have a house for 3 or 4 months and living with my in laws until my house is finished. I think deep down inside I am worried I wont be able to brew until December or January... but it would be worse to buy something just to save time then a year into it I'm buying something new.

At this point my wife would probably kill me. I am selling all my gas gear now and starting over 100% from nothing besides my ss brewtech conical