squeezing grain bag is bad?

[schmagy]

FYI, the method I finally settled on was a two kettle method that worked very well. Mashing in my 8.5 gal ss Boil kettle for 60 min @ 1.33 qts/lb. Leaving the top of the bag draped over the top of the BK and untied stirring within the bag to break up lumps and even the temps.

After the mash I would pull out the bag and squeeze just enough so i wouldn't drip wort all over the floor, and immediately dunk the grain-bag in my 30qt aluminum turkey fryer kettle filled with an appropriate amount of 170 degree sparge water.

I then inserted my long spoon into the bag and pushed it to the bottom of the kettle, and t-bagged it until the color of the sparge water was uniform.

I mostly quit the squeeze because i realized i could get the same performance without scalded hands. (I got over being a tightwad too)
I was able to keep the gravity of the sparge above 1.008, and it only took a 3 minutes, resulting in efficiency (calculated for me by the local LHBS
) at near 90%.

I would highly recommend this method for anyone wanting to start AG with 5g batches. It was cheep, fast, and easy, allowing me to focus on recipe formulation and component difference prior to committing big dollars to the volume sizes I eventually wanted.

 

[Beernik]

I was a no-squeezer. I put my grain bag in a large funnel and sparged through it.

To me, it deserves the same answer as most, "Can I do ... instead of ...". If you can't taste the difference, it doesn't matter. If you can taste the difference, it does matter.

 

[Julohan]

I am just going to make a unintelligent statement. It makes no sense to me what so ever why tannins would be a higher risk when squeezing. When tannins can come from high temperatures and the chemistry of water. Now i have never done a PM. I went from extract to all-grain. There have been a couple times I had maybe a handful worth of grains in the boil kettle and never had any off flavors.

 

[hoppymonkey]

when picking up my last batch of grains for a PM a couple days ago, the clerk and I got into talking about how tiring it is to hold the grain bag and let it all drip out and I told him that squeezing it makes it quicker. He was like "no no never do that!" but he didnt know why. Is it a bad thing to do to speed things up a little or are my beers going to taste a whole lot better when I stop squeezing out the wort from the grains?

This why I am glad my LHBS is BMW :rockin:. All those guys are in the brewclub and know thier shiat!

 

[Revvy]

This why I am glad my LHBS is BMW :rockin:. All those guys are in the brewclub and know thier shiat!

But being in a brewclub doesn't mean they collectively know their "shiat" or just "common wisdom.' I came across an entire brew club that bought turkey fryer burners, but threw out the aluminum kettles, because they still believed that old chestnut that aluminum causes alzheimers. They were pretty pissed off when I showed them the thread on here disproving that. They all spent big bucks on stainless.

 

[hoppymonkey]

Ed started as homebrewer before he opened his store. That was my only point. All I have figured from the constant reading is that I don't know shiat, but my beer tastes good to me.

PS. That's some crazyiness on the aluminum.

 

[Julohan]

I would imagine most lhbs owners started as a homebrewer. Just because they start as one doesn't mean they know everything. I could start one up right now, and I would definitely be under qualified to answer most questions.

 

[Fat_Maul]

I am just going to make a unintelligent statement. It makes no sense to me what so ever why tannins would be a higher risk when squeezing. When tannins can come from high temperatures and the chemistry of water. Now i have never done a PM. I went from extract to all-grain. There have been a couple times I had maybe a handful worth of grains in the boil kettle and never had any off flavors.

I am new to this and based on zero experience but just logic, this was my exact thought. What force is keeping these tannins out of the wort during steeping that would be affected by hand squeezing? I would understand using a press or some machinery since that would likely raise the temperature to very high levels.

 

[woozy]

I am just going to make a unintelligent statement. It makes no sense to me what so ever why tannins would be a higher risk when squeezing. When tannins can come from high temperatures and the chemistry of water. Now i have never done a PM. I went from extract to all-grain. There have been a couple times I had maybe a handful worth of grains in the boil kettle and never had any off flavors.

I am new to this and based on zero experience but just logic, this was my exact thought. What force is keeping these tannins out of the wort during steeping that would be affected by hand squeezing? I would understand using a press or some machinery since that would likely raise the temperature to very high levels.

The theory is pressure. Under normal pressure tanins are released at 180. So at 160 if squeeze really hard and you were born on Krypton or were exposed to gamma radiation and someone just made you angry you can also release tannins. Thus if you want to squeeze make sure you aren't a super-hero first.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Tannins can't be released unless the wort pH is above ~6.0. Keep the wort within the normal range and you can squeeze until the cows come home and even boil your wort (decoction anyone?) and there will be no issue with tannins. Have your pH get out of whack and it doesn't really matter what your wort temp is, you will have issues with tannins, such as what happens when you over sparge. Anybody who gives a blanket statement about squeezing leading to tannins without bringing pH into the discussion doesn't know what they are talking about and more than likely is just repeating something they heard from somebody else who doesn't know what they are talking about, ad infinitum.

 

[boydster]

You've all just been infected by zombies from 2010. They've been patiently awaiting your eventual return to this thread, and finally lured you into their trap. I would fear for my own survival, but having seen Zombieland and familiarized myself with the rules I feel I have a fighting chance.

Now where is my bowling ball...

 

[paraordnance]

I been BIAB for past 2 years and squeezed my bag religiously to the last drop I could. I NEVER EVER had issue with tannins. Tannins are pH related issue rather than mechanical action. If your pH below 5.7 during mash you not extracting any tannins. People on first page who screams "do not do it!" talking out of their ass. I started competing this year. I get medals in every beer comp I enter and NOT one score sheet out of dozens I have returned mentions tannins, not one!

 

[C-Rider]

Yup another BIAB "squeezer" here. I do small 2 gallon batches and I don't squeeze as I found the grains are two hot for my hands, so I put the bag in a collander over my cooler/mashtun and using two coffee cups PRESS with all my 160lbs of body into the cups/grain and go for every last drip. No tannins in my beer.

 

[woozy]

Ah, but the no-squeeze rule always refers to steeping and specialty grains and not mashing and base grains.

Not that it's not still bull****, it's just a different bull****.

I have *no* idea what the pH level of tap water and steeping grains is and I don't care (yet... for this purpose) because I know there is no way the pressure of my palm can possibly be a make or break point of tannin release.

 

[lgilmore]

I just bought some insulated rubber gloves and squeeze the bag out (steeping grains) over a BBQ grill (clean). What I've read is tannins occur when you get too hot in your steeping. If you keep your heat in the suggested range (150-155) should be ok.

Haven't had a problem since doing this. No off flavors, no sharp under or over tones. Just pretty good beer.

 

[RIC0]

I usually squeeze my bag as well.....

 

[Brewnoob1]

I squeezed the piss out of my bags when I was doing strictly extract with specialty grains and never had any problems. As Revvy mentioned early in the thread, what I found as "off" flavors early on was just a bad recipe or young beer. It definitely improved over time. To each their own

 

[Fennis]

I brew All-Grain BIAB, and agree with what others have stated. For the first few batches, I stuck with the thought of not squeezing the bag because of tannins concern. Then I found a thread on here more specifically for BIAB brewers and how we are encouraged to squeeze every last drop out of the bag as tannins are released more because of temperature, not because of squeezing. So my last few BIAB batches, I squeezed the bag, then set it in another pot to collect the last drops while I awaited for the boil to start. This method has increased my efficiency and I notice no off or bitter tastes to the batches that I've squeezed versus the ones I did not except that in the ones I did squeeze had better efficiency. Others may have another experience, but I will squeeze the bags for my BIAB brews. I haven't noticed bitter or off tastes in my batches, including a cream ale, where tannin bitterness would easily come through, and there were no signs of that whatsoever.

 

[woozy]

I just bought some insulated rubber gloves and squeeze the bag out (steeping grains) over a BBQ grill (clean).

Um, I don't understand what purpose the BBQ grill could possibly have...

 

[mbach72]

I think he's referring to using the grate from the grill, similar to people using a colander.

 

[LogicBomb]

How about the next time a squeezer on here squeezes they squeeze at least a bit of juice into 3 separate bowls - one at the beginning of the squeeze, one at the middle, one at the end few drops.

Then hit it with a PH test strip.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that unless you squeeze with a pneumatic press, temperature is not going to raise during a squeeze.

 

[Jayslay]

I love the two pages of people band-wagoning on the "squeezing is bad" train... without any actual input or evidence or anything. Thats why science will always win the day.. because so many people are ignorant!

The earth was flat one day... and you would be put to death for heresy if you objected. Don't beleive the hype!

 

[woozy]

The earth was flat one day... and you would be put to death for heresy if you objected.

When and where were people put to death for heresy for not believing in a flat earth?

 

[Veedo]

what if tannin extraction from squeezing is not the biggest problem with biab, what if it is all the fine particles and husk material that get squeezed through the cracks and crannies of the grain bag and end up in the boil? i suppose it depends on what type of bag you have also. i have done both squeezing and not squeezing, and havent really noticed a difference in the outcome of the beer, but its just a thought. the last couple brews i have not been squeezing just because its a pain in the arse, with little gain in efficiency.

 

[RIC0]

Smashing your bag on a grill makes me cringe, sorry I just had to throw that out there.

 

[Fennis]

what if tannin extraction from squeezing is not the biggest problem with biab, what if it is all the fine particles and husk material that get squeezed through the cracks and crannies of the grain bag and end up in the boil? i suppose it depends on what type of bag you have also. i have done both squeezing and not squeezing, and havent really noticed a difference in the outcome of the beer, but its just a thought. the last couple brews i have not been squeezing just because its a pain in the arse, with little gain in efficiency.

I would think all the fine particles and husk materials will just settle out over time just like any hop matter would. I think the amount of husk materials squeezed out wouldn't amount to anything that could change the outcome of the beer.

 

[bob1852]

Then hit it with a PH test strip.

I'd prefer a pH meter. Those strips aren't very accurate...

I love the two pages of people band-wagoning on the "squeezing is bad" train... without any actual input or evidence or anything. Thats why science will always win the day.. because so many people are ignorant!

When this thread was started ~3 years ago, that was the conventional wisdom...

 

[woozy]

When this thread was started ~3 years ago, that was the conventional wisdom...

Was it? What changed? I'm always somewhat amused and somewhat confused when someone says beer making has changed as... well, the laws of physics haven't changed. Perhaps we have developed a *few* new technologies and perhaps we've done a few scientific backed experiments but for the most part the world of physics and chemistry and our understanding of the world of physics and chemistry and how it pertains to beer is pretty much the same as it always has been.

When I hear "it was conventional wisdom three years ago" I hear "We were talking out of our asses three years ago" and when I hear "we were talking out of our asses three years ago" I hear "We are still talking out of our asses today".

We knew then that tannins are released at high temperatures at high pH balances. To say adding pressure can release tannins is bull**** now and it was bull**** three years ago.

 

[bob1852]

Was it? What changed? I'm always somewhat amused and somewhat confused when someone says beer making has changed as... well, the laws of physics haven't changed. Perhaps we have developed a *few* new technologies and perhaps we've done a few scientific backed experiments but for the most part the world of physics and chemistry and our understanding of the world of physics and chemistry and how it pertains to beer is pretty much the same as it always has been.

When I hear "it was conventional wisdom three years ago" I hear "We were talking out of our asses three years ago" and when I hear "we were talking out of our asses three years ago" I hear "We are still talking out of our asses today".

We knew then that tannins are released at high temperatures at high pH balances. To say adding pressure can release tannins is bull**** now and it was bull**** three years ago.

Notice how I said "conventional wisdom" not laws of physics.

Just like conventional wisdom back then was that a 1 week primary and 2 week secondary led to clearer beer than a 1 week primary (ignoring the fact that a 3 week primary produces as clear, if not clearer, beer).

There's more mainstream science available now, so you can't as easily get away with talking out your ass now as you could then.

Plus there's a lot more brewing books available now than just Papzain's old stuff and Palmer's v1 How to Brew...

 

[woozy]

Palmer refuted the the need for a secondary in his first edition and no-where in his book does he say not to squeeze. Talking out of your ass is talking out of your ass whether you call it "conventional wisdom" or not.

By the way "conventional wisdom" *now* says pitching dry yeast dry (not rehydrating) means absorbing wort through cell walls and killing half your yeast and seriously underpitching. Verified evidence through expermiment and observation? None. Zero.

We're still talking out of our asses we're still getting away with it..