Spinning fly sparge is awful!

[natev]

I would have to have to agree with you that it's overkill. Perhaps the stirring will help my situation. Using less water would be great, but if we find our gravity is very low we would have to continue sparging to get back up there. That has basically been the problem so far.

 

[bja]

Sounds to me like you may have channeling issues. Why don't you try batch sparging next time and see if anything changes?

 

[Tyrone]

if your gravity is low from your first x minutes of sparging I'm having trouble figuring out how it increases as you sparge more...

 

[arch1tect]

I would have to have to agree with you that it's overkill. Perhaps the stirring will help my situation. Using less water would be great, but if we find our gravity is very low we would have to continue sparging to get back up there. That has basically been the problem so far.

This is where you're wrong unfortunately. If your gravity is low then you didn't have enough conversion. Sparging will not give you enough to make up for the loss. Try mashing for longer than an hour and at 150 and see what happens.

 

[natev]

Right on, I'll give that a try.

Does anyone use iodine to check how well the conversion has worked?

if your gravity is low from your first x minutes of sparging I'm having trouble figuring out how it increases as you sparge more...

It doesn't increase until we boil 10 gallons of water away.

 

[Tyrone]

It doesn't increase until we boil 10 gallons of water away./endquote

sweet mary, son... i agree with arch1tect, you are having seriously low conversion.. i get what you're saying, now..

 

[cwi]

As was mentioned, if your first runnings are low, your conversion could be bad, or you have dough balls, or pockets in the mash/grist that never get exposed to the wort. If your first runnings are OK, but you require highly increased sparging to get the total amount of sugars out of the mash, you may have mild channeling issues. If you first runnings are OK, but no amount of sparging gets the total amount of sugars out, you may have severe channeling.

You say you are using a HERMS (that is what you have, not a RIMS), but don't have any probes on the in/out. Those are very helpful, and would be a worthwhile addition. You also say you are using thermos mounted in the pots. I know they say Blichmann and all, but those bi-metal thermos really shouldn't be used for precise measurements in your mash. (Waits for the impending wrath from the cult of Blichmann.) Used just as a sanity check, they are great.

Calibrating your thermos is a good idea. Pegging it to boiling water is a good calibration method for the hot side if you don't have any other reference.

What temp are you using for the HERMS/HEX bath? As long as your 'HEX out' temp is within 1-2 degrees of the mash temp, it isn't a huge issue, but I try to keep the bath within 7F or so of the mash temps during steady state. Higher than that and I worry, possibly falsely, that I am cooking enzymes in the HEX. If you are having to go higher than those temps diffs for either the HEX bath or HEX out, increasing flow or HEX size, or insulating the tun, can help. Agitating the bath also helps, for which there are many solutions.

FYI: Longer or more vigorous boils to increase boil off to concentrate the wort to get back to the desired final volume/SG is not a good way to tune or repeat a recipe. One way to compensate for a unplanned reduction in efficiency without increasing boil time or rate would be to adjust your final volume on the fly. It would require having some calcs/formulas ready, but if you notice your first runnings are not up to snuff, it wouldn't be too hard to run some new numbers for pre-boil volume and SG, possibly more than once. I started down this path when I was having large fluctuations, but that stopped after some process and equipment improvements.

Check those thermos for cal. If your issue was your wort (and beer) looking like dirty starchy pasta water, I would say your thermos had you mashing 15F low. Take a wild guess how I know.

 

[natev]

Yes quite low.

What temp are you using for the HERMS/HEX bath? As long as your 'HEX out' temp is within 1-2 degrees of the mash temp, it isn't a huge issue, but I try to keep the bath within 7F or so of the mash temps during steady state. Higher than that and I worry, possibly falsely, that I am cooking enzymes in the HEX. If you are having to go higher than those temps diffs for either the HEX bath or HEX out, increasing flow or HEX size, or insulating the tun, can help. Agitating the bath also helps, for which there are many solutions.

What is a HERMS/Hex bath? is that the HLT water that the recirculating wort is running through?

 

[cwi]

Yes quite low.


What is a HERMS/Hex bath? is that the HLT water that the recirculating wort is running through?

Yes, the HERMS is Heat Exchanger Recirculating Mash System.
HEX coil- Heat Exhanger coil (The coil in your HLT)
HEX bath - The fluid in your HLT that exchanges heat with the wort through the coil. Although I am not sure that is the technically correct term, it was just the first one to come to mind.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

And, FTR, Yes! the spinning sparge whirlygig is awful.

I use mine as a sprinkler head for a cold frame (after I crammed JB weld in the ends).

 

[cwi]

And, FTR, Yes! the spinning sparge whirlygig is awful.

Maybe one those polls at the top of the thread would be helpful to keep score.

I use mine as a sprinkler head for a cold frame (after I crammed JB weld in the ends).

It would have been more satisfying to have jammed your caulk in it.

 

[509inc]

Had to do it.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It would have been more satisfying to have jammed your caulk in it.

Tubes are far too large for that.

 

[cwi]

Tubes are far too large for that.

Do you drive a Porsche?
I didn't think the whirly gig tubes were that large, but I haven't seen one in person.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Do you drive a Porsche?

Gawd no. 3/4t, extended cab, long bed, 4x4, with a 9' lift.

But just for grocery shopping and such.

 

[cwi]

Gawd no. 3/4t, extended cab, long bed, 4x4, with a 9' lift.

But just for grocery shopping and such.

So you are short, too?

This is turning into another Thread Killa Thread.

Back to the issue at hand.
I think the OP's defenses are down.
Somebody ask for his hop schedule using some lame theory about how it could be affecting his OG. All that would be left then would be yeast and ferm temps.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

This is turning into another Thread Killa Thread.

Back to the issue at hand.
I think the OP's defenses are down.
Somebody ask for his hop schedule using some lame theory about how it could be affecting his OG. All that would be left then would be yeast and ferm temps.

Meh.

He is having mash issues plain as day. Might be channeling. More likely dough balls.

OP, I usually sparge with 2 to 4 gallons MAX and spread that over a 45 minute period.

 

[cwi]

Meh.

He is having mash issues plain as day. Might be channeling. More likely dough balls.

Resolving his efficiency issues became the secondary objective long ago. The primary objective is to get that secret recipe. The rest is just a ruse to lull him into divulging.

 

[Shooter]

The primary objective is to get that secret recipe.

Good going cwi, now he KNOWS!!!!!

 

[cwi]

Good going cwi, now he KNOWS!!!!!

At least we changed the subject from all that caulk and balls nonsense.
Dough balls, that is.

 

[natev]

I figure it would've been more appropriate to have "I has HERMS?" to stay in line with the cat viral thing.

If the grain actually turns into dough balls, I don't think it's that bad. I didn't notice any clumps when I emptied out the grain.

As for the sparge arm I did end up cramming a pipette in the end to get it to work. That is, after all the other things I tried fell off into the grain...

 

[squirrelly]

Ok here's what my wife an I use. It is on the B-1100 digital system: the mashtun is equipped with a stationary sparge arm which clamps to the side of the mashtun. On the sparge arm is a copper ring with 1/2" holes drilled all around it. The sparge arm has a float switch that is controlled by the digital controller and will shut the pump off when then sparge water gets too high.



That is the mashtun during a mash of my pale ale. You can see the sparge arm attached.





That is the mashtun empty with the false bottom. The float switch is viable along with the digital thermowell probe and the thermometer probe





That is the whole system. As you can see a hose comes from one of the pumps and connects to the bottom of the sparge arm moving either wort or sparge water into the ring. We've never had an issue with this, and my wife is able to brew on it by herself quite easily.

 

[BOBrob]

OK... with an 8 gallon boil off the hops would be 5oz. (secret) at 320 min. then 4oz. at 240 min.; with a combination of 2oz (nother) and 1 oz (this) at 120 min. then 2oz. (secret) at FO (flame out). I just had to...... Best thread of the day. I believe you should try batch sparging and forget the wirrly twilly thingy. The cone shape grain bed got me thinking , do you put it directly in the grain bed? You did get the answer to your problems from many people trying to help, but you do not see that you are wrong ,and that you do not understand the process. Spend more time reading and learning the process of brewing & BSing, rather than trying to BS you're brewing process. Over use of water in your sparge & channeling. Just my 2cents cheers

 

[bigbeergeek]

Sorry, went to lunch.

17# 2-row
2# marris-otter
2# cara-pils
11oz crystal 40

Skip the MO next time. If you were using up the last of a sack or something, fine, but those 2 lbs aren't going to have an effect on the recipe.


This is why we share these things.

 

[natev]

Batch Sparge is an interesting idea, that would certainly cut down on difficulties and potentially reveal where the problem lies. As for the hops, I have been adding them when we are 1hr from done, not during the boil off, but I think you figured that, and are giving me a hard time.

If you say I'm wrong about the fly sparge being awful, perhaps. However, the title was an attempt to get a decent amount of replies, and a quite successful one at that. Some other posts of mine did not receive much notice. This one did, and I'd say I probably learned a lot.

When you say BSing I assume you don't mean Batch Sparging, but it's unclear when you say learning the process & BSing, rather than trying to BS your* brewing process.

 

[cwi]

As for the hops, I have been adding them when we are 1hr from done, not during the boil off, but I think you figured that, and are giving me a hard time.

He was giving you the business, but I was trying to be helpful. Extracting that much extra low grav wort (which can introduce its own issues), and then having to adjust your pre-hop boil time or boil-off rate significantly to get your desired FV makes it difficult to determine what effect a change to your recipe has made, or to verify a previous change in a repeatability trial. I was suggesting to deal with the jacked up mash by modifying the batch size 'on the fly' (not talking about fly sparge), to get the SG (OG & FG) you want, which is more important than batch size. It may introduce less variability, or maybe not. Depends on your views on low grav extraction, long/high boils, etc.

If you say I'm wrong about the fly sparge being awful, perhaps. However, the title was an attempt to get a decent amount of replies, and a quite successful one at that. Some other posts of mine did not receive much notice. This one did, and I'd say I probably learned a lot.

All sparge methods have their followers. Fly is the most finicky. If you can't get the hang of fly sparging, try batch. There are many happy batch sparge customers. You can even 'No Sparge', if you have the tun space. More important than efficiency is consistency. A couple of $ of grain will solve efficiency issues to get the final volume you want.

When you say BSing I assume you don't mean Batch Sparging, but it's unclear when you say learning the process & BSing, rather than trying to BS your* brewing process.

I has secret recipes?
If only I had the motivation to photoshop that, along with a cat, into the OP's recipe pic.

 

[natev]

While we are all having a good laugh...

 

[cwi]

While we are all having a good laugh...

How is that funny? Gollum doesn't has a HERMS, or RIMS. That is obviously a direct fired MLT grav system.
What are you trying to say with that?

Edit: in case you haven't caught on, your only way out of this is to replace your recipe photo with the unblurred version. This may haunt you for a while otherwise. Just from your unblurred hop schedule times, you have no flame out aroma addition. Unless you left off a dry hop addition in your notes, you may not get the aroma level you want.

 

[squirrelly]

I guess this OP didn't get the memo that home brewing is open source. Even most craft brewer pony up their recipes when asked. Some may not tell you some proprietary secrets about equipment, but the majority will talk all day about their process, the systems and equipment they use, as well their recipes! This guy must brew for Microsoft.

 

[natev]

What, you can't run a HERMS on a tiered sculpture? It was the most appropriate image to fit in the small area next to Gollum. I take offense to the Microsoft comment. But, I suppose I'll have to deal with the ridicule.

I tend to add in the dry hops when I dry hop. Otherwise, I'd use the hops and when the day comes, not have what I wrote down. Which is a secret!