Sparging in a Herms?

[user 246304]

Yes, you want flavor ions (Cl, SO4, etc.) to be at a particular concentration in the final wort, and you want your Ca level to be above a minimum (50+ ppm) for good yeast performance, IIRC. And yes, the sparge will dilute the ion concentrations if the sparge water has less of those ions than the strike water. Easiest way to avoid that problem is to have the same level of flavor and Ca ions in both the sparge water and strike water. You may have additional acid or base in the strike water in order to hit a good mash pH range.

Brew on

OK thanks, Doug.

 

[user 246304]

@Gadjobrinus Did you see this? 3v system for sale

Thanks Don. I think I must be being naive....I know electric brewing is higher in startup costs than the typical gas rig, but $3500 for a used system - is that fairly typical, with new systems costing much more? I'd thought of diy'ing, just for the project, but I'm wondering if I'm just way off as to capital costs.

 

[Bobby_M]

Everyone's homebrew setup is or should be setup to their needs and wants. I brew 15 gallon batches usually, and can do 25 if my heart desires. Is an eherms complicated... no, its it more cleanup... no, and wait, biab makes water ph and water adjustments easier... um, no. Is it faster... I don't see how. It all, heat, mash, boil, cool, clean. Whether its sv or 3v it's still the same process. One benefit to svbs is the footprint. 3v is not harder or complicated in any way.

Compared to eBIAB yes a 3 vessel HERMS is complicated and I can list it all out. Have you brewed on an eBIAB? I get the feeling that you haven't based on what you're saying there.

Complexity:
One vessel vs three.
One heated vessel vs two.
One pump vs two, not to mention negotiating the flow of sparge and wort runoff.
System offset temps. The mash temp is never the same as the HLT temp so system offset has to be considered and it changes depending on the ambient temps. Again, one can adjust to this but you can't argue that it's not added complexity.

Water:
One volume of water is adjusted with one dose of salts and acid. The pH of the mash stays mostly steady whereas sparging will drift the pH the whole time unless you acidify your sparge water.

Time:
More total water has to be heated to get started, all the strike water as well as all the HLT water to keep the HERMS submerged.
It is more to clean up. Scoop out the grain from the mash tun, take the false bottom out. Hose the MLT out. That can be done while the boil is going on, but you still have to do it. Then you clean the boil kettle just like I clean mine. Rinsing the bag out is not equivalent to cleaning a mash tun.
Batch size being equal, eBIAB brew day is about 4 hours and a 3V HERMS is at least 5.5 if you're dialed in. Maybe they are exactly the same but I'm just a spaz that can't deal with it.

PS: I'm not trying to convince you to change your system but I'd gladly have you over to hang out and watch what a 1V brew system is like.

 

[Bobby_M]

OP is interested in anything.

Never thought of BiaB because of perceived poor efficiencies, and needing a pretty large vessel to handle even moderate OGs (brewing British, I rarely do bombs and when I do, I brew a shorter brewlength). But I know nothing and again, am totally open to learning more. I will admit, I like bright shiny mini-me's of a commercial brewery. My former 20 gallon Spike.

It's not just perceived poor efficiency if you're specifically talking about grain in vs. gravity out. It's literal and measurable. The real question is, is maximum extraction efficiency very high on the list of important features of a 5 or 10 gallon batch for home brewers? You could prioritize simplicity, time efficiency or any other factor. I just put extraction efficiency rather low on my list of priorities so I don't mind 70% mash efficiency or 63% brewhouse. It's just another way of making wort that I find very easy and repeatable. All the folks in my homebrew club (not all but over 70%) using eBIAB setups are making gold medal (and best of show) beers so clearly there are no measurable compromises other than a slightly higher grain cost. That can be paid for with the savings on the brewing system itself.

The pretty large vessel is somewhat true but not if you consider the total volume of all the vessels in the 3V. A 20G BIAB can make 5/10 gallon batches. Even in a 3V x 20 gallon, you're still talking about 10 gallon max batches for most gravities.

A 30G BIAB can make any 10/15G batch while a trio of 30G can do 10/15/20 (low gravity). There's a bit of overlap across both methods.

 

[user 246304]

T

It's not just perceived poor efficiency if you're specifically talking about grain in vs. gravity out. It's literal and measurable. The real question is, is maximum extraction efficiency very high on the list of important features of a 5 or 10 gallon batch for home brewers? You could prioritize simplicity, time efficiency or any other factor. I just put extraction efficiency rather low on my list of priorities so I don't mind 70% mash efficiency or 63% brewhouse. It's just another way of making wort that I find very easy and repeatable. All the folks in my homebrew club (not all but over 70%) using eBIAB setups are making gold medal (and best of show) beers so clearly there are no measurable compromises other than a slightly higher grain cost. That can be paid for with the savings on the brewing system itself.

The pretty large vessel is somewhat true but not if you consider the total volume of all the vessels in the 3V. A 20G BIAB can make 5/10 gallon batches. Even in a 3V x 20 gallon, you're still talking about 10 gallon max batches for most gravities.

A 30G BIAB can make any 10/15G batch while a trio of 30G can do 10/15/20 (low gravity). There's a bit of overlap across both methods.

Thanks, Bobby. I should clarify on the efficiency - I meant by "perceived poor" my own perceptions (or anyone's actually - it's all about what's acceptable, e.g., if lower efficiency saves time and energy and the increased "waste" on ingredients is comparably not a big deal, the "perceived efficiency" isn't a problem.

I should have just called it value - what is the time, energy and money going in, for the perceived value out. (A 1 buck McDonald's may be grossly a poor value, if we'd rather spend $35 on a good riesling). I'm meaning I'm not sure I'm cool with an efficiency in these ranges, mostly because I'm an older dude and have been doing it old ways for a long time, and gotten a certain extraction. But I see your reasoning and I appreciate the perspective, something I'll be thinking on.

 

[whoaru99]

Sorta barging in here but a recent purchase of some used Blichmann stuff (single channel Tower of Power and two burner Top Tier stand) had me thinking a multi kettle setup like the big boys.

However, the idea of using this stuff for a direct-fired, single kettle RIMS BiaB rig has me intrigued and I believe where I'm headed with it.

 

[day_trippr]

35 replies in one day? wth? And @Bobby_M forsaking his heritage? double wth!

I love my 3v2p rig, it provides a ton of entertainment while being as close to hands-off as a fully manual brew rig can get! Brewing on an AIO sounds boring AF to me.

Anyway...I scanned a bunch and only saw one reply that matches my 3V2P procedure: I treat and heat strike water in my boil kettle at the same time I treat and heat my HLT volume. The latter has a minimum of 10 gallons to completely cover the HEX coil; with one exception my 10 gallon recipes use no more than 9 gallons of fly sparge liquor.

I underlet the mash with the strike volume, let the MLT rest for 5 minutes while I swap hoses around for recirculation, then get the recirculation going. Once the fly sparge is done (even before run-out is complete) I clean and dry the HLT; once the pre-boil volume has been reached I clean and dry the MLT. From there it's just administering to the BK's needs the rest of the way...

Cheers!

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Compared to eBIAB yes a 3 vessel HERMS is complicated and I can list it all out. Have you brewed on an eBIAB? I get the feeling that you haven't based on what you're saying there.

Complexity:
One vessel vs three.
One heated vessel vs two.
One pump vs two, not to mention negotiating the flow of sparge and wort runoff.
System offset temps. The mash temp is never the same as the HLT temp so system offset has to be considered and it changes depending on the ambient temps. Again, one can adjust to this but you can't argue that it's not added complexity.

Water:
One volume of water is adjusted with one dose of salts and acid. The pH of the mash stays mostly steady whereas sparging will drift the pH the whole time unless you acidify your sparge water.

Time:
More total water has to be heated to get started, all the strike water as well as all the HLT water to keep the HERMS submerged.
It is more to clean up. Scoop out the grain from the mash tun, take the false bottom out. Hose the MLT out. That can be done while the boil is going on, but you still have to do it. Then you clean the boil kettle just like I clean mine. Rinsing the bag out is not equivalent to cleaning a mash tun.
Batch size being equal, eBIAB brew day is about 4 hours and a 3V HERMS is at least 5.5 if you're dialed in. Maybe they are exactly the same but I'm just a spaz that can't deal with it.

PS: I'm not trying to convince you to change your system but I'd gladly have you over to hang out and watch what a 1V brew system is like.

I get your points and I'm not trying to change your mind. But your not gonna change mine. I dont brew small batches. I have no interest in that. Again as I stated for me, this works. It's simple. Whether your cleaning a basket or a kettle your still cleaning out grain and whatever strains it. My average grain weight is 40lbs dry, I'm not trying to lift that out in a basket once wet. Yea sure a 5 or even 10 gallon batch I don't doubt is easier to handle on a svbs. But I dont brew on that scale, it's not worth my time. That's why I said a person's brew system should fit their needs and wants. Svbs does not suit me, end of story. And that's me, not you or the op, or any other person. It's my style, and how I prefer to brew. It's simple for me to add acid it my hlt and mash tun, it works for me. I can do it in my sleep. My mash tun is clean before I'm done boiling. Transfer to the fermenter and all I have to do is rinse my boil kettle and I'm ready for the next brew day. I have sat in on brewdays with friends that brew on a svbs and sure it's simple as well, but for the volume I brew and my average OG it just doesn't fit my style. Simple as that. Before I purchased my current system I did a ton of research and I wouldn't change my decision.

 

[Deric]

My first homebrew was 1989. I think my first all-grain brew was in 1994 (maybe 1995). I brewed with a 10 gallon pot, propane burner, 5 gallon Igloo mash tun and when I could afford it, a 5 gallon Igloo HLT for sparging. All gravity fed. Eventually moved to a keggle with a false bottom and a welded valve for the boil kettle. Made 4 award winning beers on that setup.

In 2011 I scored another keggle and built a 3 vessel single tier propane fired system with 2 pumps on a weldless stand. Made a lot of great beer on that system and had a ton of fun brewing with my brother.

In early 2019 we decided to convert to electric. Original plan was to just do the HLT and Boil kettle but ended up with basically a homebuilt Spike Trio. It's been a great system. Brewed a TON of great beer on this and had a TON of good times. It lives at his house ( we live on the same street about 5 blocks away).

When COVID hit I decided it was finally time to brew at home again. I came across @Bobby_M video of his single vessel BIAB system. I dug out the 10 gallon kettle I used for my first all grain batch ~25 years earlier and built a version of Bobby's system. Also installed a sink in the garage.

We use both systems regularly - probably once a month (or more) for both. Both make great beer - most of the time. My single vessel BIAB is more predictable and step mashing is MUCH faster!

That said.... I'm considering converting the 3 vessel system to a 10 gallon BIAB. I don't care much about brew time or clean up time (it's a good hang with my brother) but the ability to step mash so much faster is awesome. Would love to have the BIAB/recirculating mash and be able to sparge for efficiency.

Lot's of ways to make good beer.

 

[Cameronl]

I enjoy my 3V eHerms setup. I like to pretend it's a tiny professional brewery. But if I were to start over, I would seriously consider BIAG.

 

[Exception13]

So both the BK and HLT have a heating element, but not the MT, right?

Bingo!

 

[hottpeper13]

When I built my basement induction (2 burners) brewery it was 3v for 10 gal batches. things slowed and I went to 5 gal and the 15 gal Coleman extreme MLT didn't have a deep enough grain bed to work. I got a bag and made a pulley set up and make step mash brews using the HLT to add boiling liquor.
Yesterday I made my spring beer, a rye double bock that hit 1.095. Because the grain bill was 23 lbs I could use the 3v system and sparge and get higher efficiency. I did a single infusion at 152* for 30 min then pulled half the grain for a decoction added back for mashout at 172*.
I started at 11:00 am and finished making the wort at 7:00 pm. It will finish chilling overnite to 55* and I'll pitch and clean up this morning. So yeah Bobby it was a long day and I got one more session for a RIS going in a barrel at 12% or so. I also make a Quad and a Tripple every now and then,so you might say I go both ways. I also have a 10 gal aluminum pot and a propane burner I take on the road for gypsy brewing.

 

[Bobby_M]

See, the thread is working out just fine. Lots of different perspectives on display. I'm sorry if anyone felt like I was crapping on their precious. I was just being slightly hyperbolic and a bit tongue in cheek because folks sometimes get upset when someone posts something contrary to the OP's direct question. I do have at least one unique perspective having built and shipped over 100 biab rigs. Whenever someone was reluctant to accept the paradigm shift, I've offered to buy it back for full credit towards a 3v system after a couple brews. Bets on how many took me up on the offer?

 

[Exception13]

Bets on how many took me up on the offer?

I know I didn't.