Sparging in a Herms?

[user 246304]

Noob but I'm very new to the idea of electric brewing. Considering a HERMS. If we use the HLT to strike and heat the mash for any steps, how do you use that same HLT to sparge? I ask because a video on you tube says to just fill the HLT with tap water as its composition is unimportant for the HERMS purpose.

Not wanting a no-sparge or similar process, just looking for a traditional fly-sparge pumped over the mash for runoff. 4 total vessels, "HLT" which is really a HERMS coil vessel, and a dedicated true HLT for sparge and lautering?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

3 vessels. Once you are ready to sparge you no longer need the water in your hlt to heat the coil, so you use that water as your sparge water into your mash tun.

Edit: personally I pump the water from my hlt back through my herms coil and into my mash tun as sparge water to flush out the coil at the same time as sparging.

 

[ba-brewer]

Seems if you set the temp of the HLT to your desired sparge temp you do not need a 4th vessel. You will may have slower steps and hard to get to a mashout temp.

Could also heat your HLT higher than your desired sparge temp to get faster steps then cool it back with some cold water before you sparge.

I am a RIMS brewer so no direct experience.

 

[user 246304]

3 vessels. Once you are ready to sparge you no longer need the water in your hlt to heat the coil, so you use that water as your sparge water into your mash tun.

Edit: personally I pump the water from my hlt back through my herms coil and into my mash tun as sparge water to flush out the coil at the same time as sparging.

OK, so her saying use plain tap water in the HLT for recirc is odd, then - treat sparge water with salts/acids as usual, then use that water for sparging, as usual?

And, sorry, unclear how you use the HLT water for purging and lautering - if it's a closed loop, MLT out-pump 1 in - pump 1 out - coil in HLT in-Coil in HLT out - top of mash bed and through again, how do you actually get the HLT water itself through to lauter the mash? (not my best suit, even elementary home "engineering, as you can see).

Sorry, I think I get it now. The HLT has 4, maybe 5 ports:

1. liquor out to pump inlet; pump outlet to liquor in.
2. Heating element port to heat HLT water.
3. Herms coil in.
4. Herms coil out.
5. (Possibly) thermometer probe port.

1. Strike water. Basically, heat the HLT to strike temps via HLT in and outs through the pump, and the heating element heating the HLT liquor.

2. Mash. Mash recirc, switches to pump 2. MT inlet high, MT outlet low into pump 2 in, to coil inlet on HLT to coil out on HLT to high port on MT. Complete mash.

3. Runoff and lauter. MT out through pump 2 into pump 2 in to BK in. HLT liquor out to pump 1 in to pump 1 out to high MT port for lautering.

-right?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Yes I treat my hlt water.

Once your mash is complete and you're ready to sparge you move your hoses. So..

Mlt out, pump1 in, pump 1 out, boil kettle in.

Hlt out, pump 2 in, pump 2 out, herms coil in, herms coil out, mlt in.

If that makes sense

 

[Broken Crow]

Ideally your HLT will have the total water volume for your brew, but in practice and depending on your specific gear, once the strike water is used you'll have to top it up just to keep the HERMS coil immersed and then heat it up all over again. That's why I chose to go with a RIMS instead. You don't want to sparge with tap-water, but the salts/acids aren't required for sparging as they are specific to the mash all that's left to do is 'rinse' the grains.

 

[user 246304]

Yes I treat my hlt water.

Once your mash is complete and you're ready to sparge you move your hoses. So..

Mlt out, pump1 in, pump 1 out, boil kettle in.

Hlt out, pump 2 in, pump 2 out, herms coil in, herms coil out, mlt in.

If that makes sense Do

Sorry, still confused then. For the lautering, I get pump 1 - basically pumping wort over to BK. But if the coil isn't actually "open" to the HLT water, how do we get water into pump 2 to transfer over to MT in? Don't we need herms coil in and out, and a separate outlet port (allowing sparge water into the transfer system over to MT) on the HLT, into pump 2?

Edit: Got it. Thanks all.

 

[Deric]

Check out Brew Day Step by Step at the Electric Brewery site. Shows hose connections and flow for a typical HERMS set-up.

The only thing I do differently - I heat my mash water in the boil kettle at the same time I'm heating the HERMS/HLT/Sparge water.

 

[user 246304]

Check out Brew Day Step by Step at the Electric Brewery site. Shows hose connections and flow for a typical HERMS set-up.

The only thing I do differently - I heat my mash water in the boil kettle at the same time I'm heating the HERMS/HLT/Sparge water.

LOL, that's the link I have above. Yep, never saw the site before and this page lays it out wonderfully well. And cool idea on using the BK for the mash water, thanks. So both the BK and HLT have a heating element, but not the MT, right?

 

[doug293cz]

You don't want to sparge with tap-water, but the salts/acids aren't required for sparging as they are specific to the mash all that's left to do is 'rinse' the grains.

Actually, many brewers should be acidifying their sparge water, if it has significant alkalinity, in order to prevent excess tannin extraction during the sparge. All you have to do is add enough lactic or phosphoric acid to the tap water to bring the pH to about 5.6. Then the sparge cannot raise the pH of the mash significantly.

Brew on

 

[user 246304]

Actually, many brewers should be acidifying their sparge water, if it has significant alkalinity, in order to prevent excess tannin extraction during the sparge. All you have to do is add enough lactic or phosphoric acid to the tap water to bring the pH to about 5.6. Then the sparge cannot raise the pH of the mash significantly.

Brew on

+1, that's me. Waiting on Ward's and I filter but our city supply is high, 300 (CaCO3) on average.

One question, and I've been out a long time and have forgotten so much. I get that the addition of salts to the mash aids in conversion by helping get into mash conversion pH range, and that we don't want to leach tannins by an high pH HLT (or take runoff to too low a gravity), but what about flavor components to minerals in the water. E.g., from what I read of both @Northern_Brewer and @cire, the mineral content of the Yorkshire beers can be much higher than people presume.

If we just salt the mash and not the sparge, won't we be diluting our final salt ppms? IIRC correctly I used to maintain a "stock" water used in both mashing and sparging, and acidified as needed in either/both MT and HLT. Works, right?

 

[Broken Crow]

Actually, many brewers should be acidifying their sparge water, if it has significant alkalinity, in order to prevent excess tannin extraction during the sparge. All you have to do is add enough lactic or phosphoric acid to the tap water to bring the pH to about 5.6. Then the sparge cannot raise the pH of the mash significantly.

Brew on

Thanks! I can always count you for busting myths I picked up online.

 

[Deric]

LOL, that's the link I have above. Yep, never saw the site before and this page lays it out wonderfully well. And cool idea on using the BK for the mash water, thanks. So both the BK and HLT have a heating element, but not the MT, right?

Correct. You do need an outlet and control panel capable of firing both elements at the same time.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Right, I am only capable for firing 1 element at a time. So I heat my strike water via the herms coil, that way I dont have to worry about losing volume in hlt. I fill my hlt to cover the herms coil and fill my mash tun with the proper mash water volume and run the strike water through the herms coil as my hlt heat up, heating both at the same time. Once at temp I mash in and continue recirculating.

 

[Bobby_M]

First, I'll have to get this off my chest. 3 vessel brewing sucks donkey. If you're not a commercial brewer making 1BBL or bigger batches and don't need the economy of the absolutely highest extraction, it's just a bunch of wasted time, money and energy compared to single vessel eBIAB (bag or basket). eBIAB offers faster system startup, faster step mashing, more intuitive water/pH calculation and correction, and faster cleanup. Change my mind.

That feels better. Now, attached is a pretty decent explanation of HERMS if I do say so myself. I personally like (again, "like" is a strong word for a system like this) heating my strike water directly in the MLT passively through the HERMS coil because the whole system comes up to temp and there's no goofing around with transfers or hose changes before doughing in. In fact, with this method, you don't change a single hose until you start sparging.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Well @Bobby_M I'll agree with the second part of your statement as obviously I brew on a 3v2p system, and my process is exactly as you mentioned there. The first part, well that's your opinion and I'll leave it at that.

 

[shoengine]

@Bobby_M
I hate it when you beat around the bush. Tell us how you really feel!

One disadvantage of BIAB is that you are more limited in maximum gravity, even for smaller batches. I make 5-6 gallon batches in a 15g kettle and once my OG hits about 1.100 efficiency drops into the 50% range. Definitely an edge case and you aren't wrong, but not having to do full volume mashes and being able to sparge has advantages.

Even though I'm a dirty, single vessel brewer this thread has been fun to read through.

 

[Bobby_M]

Well @Bobby_M I'll agree with the second part of your statement as obviously I brew on a 3v2p system, and my process is exactly as you mentioned there. The first part, well that's your opinion and I'll leave it at that.

People are definitely free to make brewing harder than it has to be if it adds to their enjoyment. The fact that one has to draw 20 illustrations to explain how it works is pretty indicative of its complex nature. I've brewed on every system configuration. I've been hired many times to go teach people how to brew on systems like the Spike Trio because they dropped 8 grand on maximum shiny things without knowing what they were getting into. My points about the pros and cons stand, though if the OP doesn't want to hear it, that's OK with me too.

 

[Bobby_M]

@Bobby_M
I hate it when you beat around the bush. Tell us how you really feel!

One disadvantage of BIAB is that you are more limited in maximum gravity, even for smaller batches. I make 5-6 gallon batches in a 15g kettle and once my OG hits about 1.100 efficiency drops into the 50% range. Definitely an edge case and you aren't wrong, but not having to do full volume mashes and being able to sparge has advantages.

Even though I'm a dirty, single vessel brewer this thread has been fun to read through.

Sure, I'll brew a 1.100 OG batch about once every two years so it's edge for me but you CAN still sparge those or augment with DME. I just take the efficiency hit for 1/24th of my brew sessions.

 

[sibelman]

both elements at the same time

Not truly necessary. I heat my mash and sparge water together in my BK (while milling grain), transfer sparge water to the HLT, mash in, switch power from BK to HERMS HLT, recirculate, sparge to the BK, switch power back to BK (mid-sparge to get a jump on the boil once the element is covered), and boil.

 

[shoengine]

Sure, I'll brew a 1.100 OG batch about once every two years so it's edge for me but you CAN still sparge those or augment with DME. I just take the efficiency hit for 1/24th of my brew sessions.

Hey, you asked!

I just stopped doing them entirely

 

[SpikeBrewing]

Noob but I'm very new to the idea of electric brewing. Considering a HERMS. If we use the HLT to strike and heat the mash for any steps, how do you use that same HLT to sparge? I ask because a video on you tube says to just fill the HLT with tap water as its composition is unimportant for the HERMS purpose.

Not wanting a no-sparge or similar process, just looking for a traditional fly-sparge pumped over the mash for runoff. 4 total vessels, "HLT" which is really a HERMS coil vessel, and a dedicated true HLT for sparge and lautering?

It's your hard earned money; get what you want! Couple HERMS info for ya:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0152/1071/files/Flat_Bottom_Trio.pdf?v=1678900211

 

[user 246304]

People are definitely free to make brewing harder than it has to be if it adds to their enjoyment. The fact that one has to draw 20 illustrations to explain how it works is pretty indicative of its complex nature. I've brewed on every system configuration. I've been hired many times to go teach people how to brew on systems like the Spike Trio because they dropped 8 grand on maximum shiny things without knowing what they were getting into. My points about the pros and cons stand, though if the OP doesn't want to hear it, that's OK with me too.

OP is interested in anything.

Never thought of BiaB because of perceived poor efficiencies, and needing a pretty large vessel to handle even moderate OGs (brewing British, I rarely do bombs and when I do, I brew a shorter brewlength). But I know nothing and again, am totally open to learning more. I will admit, I like bright shiny mini-me's of a commercial brewery. My former 20 gallon Spike.

 

[user 246304]

It's your hard earned money; get what you want! Couple HERMS info for ya:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0152/1071/files/Flat_Bottom_Trio.pdf?v=1678900211

I love you guys. Obviously, since I posted a photo of the beautiful system using your 20 gallon original vessels. And I couldn't be happier for your success. I'm afraid at close to $8000, for a hobby, that puts it completely out of my universe.

 

[shoengine]

BIAB is great. If I ever get a bigger system the BIAB gear is going to the bugout.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Everyone's homebrew setup is or should be setup to their needs and wants. I brew 15 gallon batches usually, and can do 25 if my heart desires. Is an eherms complicated... no, its it more cleanup... no, and wait, biab makes water ph and water adjustments easier... um, no. Is it faster... I don't see how. It all, heat, mash, boil, cool, clean. Whether its sv or 3v it's still the same process. One benefit to svbs is the footprint. 3v is not harder or complicated in any way.

 

[user 246304]

Everyone's homebrew setup is or should be setup to their needs and wants. I brew 15 gallon batches usually, and can do 25 if my heart desires. Is an eherms complicated... no, its it more cleanup... no, and wait, biab makes water ph and water adjustments easier... um, no. Is it faster... I don't see how. It all, heat, mash, boil, cool, clean. Whether its sv or 3v it's still the same process. One benefit to svbs is the footprint. 3v is not harder or complicated in any way.

I'm a luddite. I'm not exaggerating. Honestly, I don't mind labor and in general have a distrust of reliance on digital anything, great example are today's cars - I loathe so much reliance on electronics. I'm not quite slavishly following the old monks dictum, who bereft of a thermometer apparently used to mash in when the steam quality on the water surface gets a certain sheen, but you know....

So, I like simple and to me it doesn't really get simpler than a 3V gas system - and when I started out, that meant a one-level system and I simply sparged and ran-off by hand, with ladles, etc. And made really good beer. However, and this might be weird for some folks as they've never had an issue, but brewing on propane, even outdoors, I got debilitating headaches which sometimes approached the emergent - I can recall a brew where I had to come inside drenched in sweat and a blinding headache, all I could do to sit in the chair and wait it out. So, gas has gotten old.

Anyway, that's my bent but I'm open to new things. I'd love to brew indoors, and so this is an attractive option. I appreciate all the info, Bailey et al.

 

[DonT]

@Gadjobrinus Did you see this? 3v system for sale

 

[doug293cz]

+1, that's me. Waiting on Ward's and I filter but our city supply is high, 300 (CaCO3) on average.

One question, and I've been out a long time and have forgotten so much. I get that the addition of salts to the mash aids in conversion by helping get into mash conversion pH range, and that we don't want to leach tannins by an high pH HLT (or take runoff to too low a gravity), but what about flavor components to minerals in the water. E.g., from what I read of both @Northern_Brewer and @cire, the mineral content of the Yorkshire beers can be much higher than people presume.

If we just salt the mash and not the sparge, won't we be diluting our final salt ppms? IIRC correctly I used to maintain a "stock" water used in both mashing and sparging, and acidified as needed in either/both MT and HLT. Works, right?

Yes, you want flavor ions (Cl, SO4, etc.) to be at a particular concentration in the final wort, and you want your Ca level to be above a minimum (50+ ppm) for good yeast performance, IIRC. And yes, the sparge will dilute the ion concentrations if the sparge water has less of those ions than the strike water. Easiest way to avoid that problem is to have the same level of flavor and Ca ions in both the sparge water and strike water. You may have additional acid or base in the strike water in order to hit a good mash pH range.

Brew on

 

[sibelman]

Re "sucks donkey": how colorful, Bobby.

If I were just getting started I might well go with BIAB. Bobby's previous advocacy is pretty convincing. I might even convert one day. But my 3V brewing preceded the BIAB thing and works well.

No $8K in shiny vessels: my three stainless vessels (Spike HLT & BK, Chapman MT) have bling like Bobby's sweet BIAB rig, and totalled under $1K, though I've spent thousands on other gear over the years.

To convert wouldn't be huge: probably just a false bottom, bag/basket, and one or more additional BK ports.

Mashing in a bag, which I did for a while in the early 90s, was the only time I've had stuck sparges, so my initial response to the rise of BIAB was, "Meh." Of course, all that came before the Wilser bag (and the word "meh" )