Sparging and boil volume

[miatawnt2b]

I have a quick question regarding sparging and how it relates to boil volume. I guess I am just a bit confused about how you know how much water you should sparge with. Since I have never calculated boil-off volume before, I am assuming that I will boil approx 1 gallon in a 1 hour boil. If this is way off, please tell me. I also have some other questions.

1) Given a 9.5lb grain bill, I will use just under 3 gallons of water for a 1.25qt/lb of grain mash. How much wort can I expect to drain from the 3 gallons after my hour mash and before the sparge (AKA how much does the grain hold)

2) I want 5.5 gal of wort at the end of my boil. So, do i just simply add all of the volumes like this? 5.5+soaked grain volume+boil evaporation+hops trub to get the total water volume I will need?

3) If #2 is correct, do I sparge with fresh water until I hit my pre-boil volume or do I sparge with a given volume and add fresh water to the boil kettle to hit my pre-boil volume?

Thanks for answering the noob questions.

-J

 

[sleepystevenson]

Hey Mia,



I see you're in Steeler Country! Me too, about an hour north of the 'Burgh!

Anyway, I am a noob too to all grain (only one batch so far.)
I don't know what kind of sparging you do, but this link helped me a lot, as I batch sparge:

http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/


Good luck!

Go Steelers, BABY!

 

[ebeer]

Grain absorption is typically accepted to be .125gal per lb of grain. Evaporation is typically 6-8% per hour, and shrinkage from cooling is usually 4%.

Roughly I'd say 9.5lbs x 1.25qt/lb = 11.875qts or 2.9(~3)gal.
Grains absorption would be 9.5 x .125 = 1.425gal, meaning without adding sparge water your would get 1.575gal of wort. This means you'll need 3.925gal of sparge water to get to 5.5gal wort....but that doesn't include loss for evaporation rate or shrinkage. Say you sparge to 6gal, boil for 1hr and chill: (6 x .06) + (6 x .04) = .6gal loss which gets you to 5.4gal after the boil.

This of course doesn't take into consideration the vigor of your boil, boil kettle's geometry, loss for hop absorption, mash tun dead space, kettle dead space, or wort left in hoses and pumps.

I would experiment by sparging to say 6.25 (adjust your recipe) and see what your yield is. Once you get consistent results with subsequent brews, you'll know that on your system....6.25gal pre-boil wort will yield 5.5gal post boil and you won't have to worry about all the details...just know the desired pre-boil volume.

Hope this helps.

 

[shmevinator]

Not to pry into someone else's post here, but Miatawnt2b's question #3 has been on the tip of my tongue for the past couple days, planning my first AG batch.

So I get how to calculate total water needed for a batch to arrive at preboil volume. However, do you always divide out your mash water and then use the rest as sparge water? Is there ever a problem with oversparging grains? Tannin extraction?

 

[miatawnt2b]

Not to pry into someone else's post here, but Miatawnt2b's question #3 has been on the tip of my tongue for the past couple days, planning my first AG batch.

So I get how to calculate total water needed for a batch to arrive at preboil volume. However, do you always divide out your mash water and then use the rest as sparge water? Is there ever a problem with oversparging grains? Tannin extraction?

Yep, exactly what I wanted to know too.

-J

 

[PseudoChef]

There should not be a problem with over-sparging grains. Tannin extraction is a cause of temperatures that are higher than necessary (170F+).

I just made this document (too big for attachment?), I'd appreciate if some more experienced AGers could go ahead and see if my math is in the right ballpark. I'm trying to upgrade my system and see how big of a brew pot I really need.

First Column= Amt. Grain (lbs)
Second Column= Mash Water (1.25 qts/lb) (US gal)
Third Column= Sparge Water (Mash * 1.5) (US gal)
Fourth Column= Approx Grain Aborption (US gal)
Fifth Column= Total Preboil Volume
6.00 1.88 2.81 0.90 3.79
6.25 1.95 2.93 0.94 3.95
6.50 2.03 3.05 0.98 4.10
6.75 2.11 3.16 1.01 4.26
7.00 2.19 3.28 1.05 4.42
7.25 2.27 3.40 1.09 4.58
7.50 2.34 3.52 1.13 4.73
7.75 2.42 3.63 1.16 4.89
8.00 2.50 3.75 1.20 5.05
8.25 2.58 3.87 1.24 5.21
8.50 2.66 3.98 1.28 5.37
8.75 2.73 4.10 1.31 5.52
9.00 2.81 4.22 1.35 5.68
9.25 2.89 4.34 1.39 5.84
9.50 2.97 4.45 1.43 6.00
9.75 3.05 4.57 1.46 6.15
10.00 3.13 4.69 1.50 6.31
10.25 3.20 4.80 1.54 6.47
10.50 3.28 4.92 1.58 6.63
10.75 3.36 5.04 1.61 6.79
11.00 3.44 5.16 1.65 6.94
11.25 3.52 5.27 1.69 7.10
11.50 3.59 5.39 1.73 7.26
11.75 3.67 5.51 1.76 7.42
12.00 3.75 5.63 1.80 7.58
12.25 3.83 5.74 1.84 7.73
12.50 3.91 5.86 1.88 7.89
12.75 3.98 5.98 1.91 8.05
13.00 4.06 6.09 1.95 8.21
13.25 4.14 6.21 1.99 8.36
13.50 4.22 6.33 2.03 8.52
13.75 4.30 6.45 2.06 8.68
14.00 4.38 6.56 2.10 8.84
14.25 4.45 6.68 2.14 9.00
14.50 4.53 6.80 2.18 9.15
14.75 4.61 6.91 2.21 9.31
15.00 4.69 7.03 2.25 9.47
15.25 4.77 7.15 2.29 9.63
15.50 4.84 7.27 2.33 9.78
15.75 4.92 7.38 2.36 9.94
16.00 5.00 7.50 2.40 10.10
16.25 5.08 7.62 2.44 10.26
16.50 5.16 7.73 2.48 10.42
16.75 5.23 7.85 2.51 10.57
17.00 5.31 7.97 2.55 10.73
17.25 5.39 8.09 2.59 10.89
17.50 5.47 8.20 2.63 11.05
17.75 5.55 8.32 2.66 11.20
18.00 5.63 8.44 2.70 11.36
18.25 5.70 8.55 2.74 11.52
18.50 5.78 8.67 2.78 11.68
18.75 5.86 8.79 2.81 11.84
19.00 5.94 8.91 2.85 11.99
19.25 6.02 9.02 2.89 12.15
19.50 6.09 9.14 2.93 12.31
19.75 6.17 9.26 2.96 12.47
20.00 6.25 9.38 3.00 12.63
20.25 6.33 9.49 3.04 12.78
20.50 6.41 9.61 3.08 12.94
20.75 6.48 9.73 3.11 13.10
21.00 6.56 9.84 3.15 13.26
21.25 6.64 9.96 3.19 13.41
21.50 6.72 10.08 3.23 13.57
21.75 6.80 10.20 3.26 13.73
22.00 6.88 10.31 3.30 13.89
22.25 6.95 10.43 3.34 14.05
22.50 7.03 10.55 3.38 14.20
22.75 7.11 10.66 3.41 14.36
23.00 7.19 10.78 3.45 14.52
23.25 7.27 10.90 3.49 14.68
23.50 7.34 11.02 3.53 14.83
23.75 7.42 11.13 3.56 14.99
24.00 7.50 11.25 3.60 15.15
24.25 7.58 11.37 3.64 15.31
24.50 7.66 11.48 3.68 15.47
24.75 7.73 11.60 3.71 15.62
25.00 7.81 11.72 3.75 15.78
25.25 7.89 11.84 3.79 15.94
25.50 7.97 11.95 3.83 16.10
25.75 8.05 12.07 3.86 16.25
26.00 8.13 12.19 3.90 16.41
26.25 8.20 12.30 3.94 16.57
26.50 8.28 12.42 3.98 16.73
26.75 8.36 12.54 4.01 16.89
27.00 8.44 12.66 4.05 17.04
27.25 8.52 12.77 4.09 17.20
27.50 8.59 12.89 4.13 17.36
27.75 8.67 13.01 4.16 17.52
28.00 8.75 13.13 4.20 17.68
28.25 8.83 13.24 4.24 17.83
28.50 8.91 13.36 4.28 17.99
28.75 8.98 13.48 4.31 18.15
29.00 9.06 13.59 4.35 18.31
29.25 9.14 13.71 4.39 18.46
29.50 9.22 13.83 4.43 18.62
29.75 9.30 13.95 4.46 18.78
30.00 9.38 14.06 4.50 18.94
30.25 9.45 14.18 4.54 19.10
30.50 9.53 14.30 4.58 19.25
30.75 9.61 14.41 4.61 19.41
31.00 9.69 14.53 4.65 19.57
31.25 9.77 14.65 4.69 19.73
31.50 9.84 14.77 4.73 19.88
31.75 9.92 14.88 4.76 20.04
32.00 10.00 15.00 4.80 20.20
32.25 10.08 15.12 4.84 20.36
32.50 10.16 15.23 4.88 20.52
32.75 10.23 15.35 4.91 20.67
33.00 10.31 15.47 4.95 20.83
33.25 10.39 15.59 4.99 20.99
33.50 10.47 15.70 5.03 21.15
33.75 10.55 15.82 5.06 21.30
34.00 10.63 15.94 5.10 21.46
34.25 10.70 16.05 5.14 21.62
34.50 10.78 16.17 5.18 21.78
34.75 10.86 16.29 5.21 21.94
35.00 10.94 16.41 5.25 22.09

So, if I start with a 17lb grain bill for a 5.5 gallon batch (My next planned recipe, actually), am I really going to have a 10.75-ish gallon pre-boil volume?

I realize there are other losses to equipment that I'm not factoring in, but I'm hoping these numbers put me in an approximate understanding.

 

[WortMonger]

Over-sparging is bad, will bring out more tannins (especially higher than 172*F), not to mention makes your gravity lower. Most stop collecting wort from sparge water when it gets below 1.010 SG. Do as much reading as you can on the net, the info is great and will have you occupied for hours. Also, I would suggest brewing books as you will use them for reference forever. I like the Brewmasters Bible, others (most I would say) Like Papazian's Joy's of Home Brewing. Not that you can't ask questions here I use the BB as a tool still to this day. I am still fairly new on here, but have been brewing forever. The search on this forum is great and usually I get my answers in a couple of threads before I get to the end of the thread search list. Welcome guys, and I really hope you enjoy this site as much as we all do.

P.S. over sparging can also lead to more grainy flavor than malty.

check out the definition for astringency -> reference http://brewers.sca-caid.org/forms/BrewersGuildJudgingForms2007.doc

 

[kenb]

There should not be a problem with over-sparging grains. Tannin extraction is a cause of temperatures that are higher than necessary (170F+).

I just made this document (too big for attachment?), I'd appreciate if some more experienced AGers could go ahead and see if my math is in the right ballpark. I'm trying to upgrade my system and see how big of a brew pot I really need.

First Column= Amt. Grain (lbs)
Second Column= Mash Water (1.25 qts/lb) (US gal)
Third Column= Sparge Water (Mash * 1.5) (US gal)
Fourth Column= Approx Grain Aborption (US gal)
Fifth Column= Total Preboil Volume
6.00 1.88 2.81 0.90 3.79
6.25 1.95 2.93 0.94 3.95
6.50 2.03 3.05 0.98 4.10
6.75 2.11 3.16 1.01 4.26
7.00 2.19 3.28 1.05 4.42
7.25 2.27 3.40 1.09 4.58
7.50 2.34 3.52 1.13 4.73
7.75 2.42 3.63 1.16 4.89
8.00 2.50 3.75 1.20 5.05
8.25 2.58 3.87 1.24 5.21
8.50 2.66 3.98 1.28 5.37
8.75 2.73 4.10 1.31 5.52
9.00 2.81 4.22 1.35 5.68
9.25 2.89 4.34 1.39 5.84
9.50 2.97 4.45 1.43 6.00
9.75 3.05 4.57 1.46 6.15
10.00 3.13 4.69 1.50 6.31
10.25 3.20 4.80 1.54 6.47
10.50 3.28 4.92 1.58 6.63
10.75 3.36 5.04 1.61 6.79
11.00 3.44 5.16 1.65 6.94
11.25 3.52 5.27 1.69 7.10
11.50 3.59 5.39 1.73 7.26
11.75 3.67 5.51 1.76 7.42
12.00 3.75 5.63 1.80 7.58
12.25 3.83 5.74 1.84 7.73
12.50 3.91 5.86 1.88 7.89
12.75 3.98 5.98 1.91 8.05
13.00 4.06 6.09 1.95 8.21
13.25 4.14 6.21 1.99 8.36
13.50 4.22 6.33 2.03 8.52
13.75 4.30 6.45 2.06 8.68
14.00 4.38 6.56 2.10 8.84
14.25 4.45 6.68 2.14 9.00
14.50 4.53 6.80 2.18 9.15
14.75 4.61 6.91 2.21 9.31
15.00 4.69 7.03 2.25 9.47
15.25 4.77 7.15 2.29 9.63
15.50 4.84 7.27 2.33 9.78
15.75 4.92 7.38 2.36 9.94
16.00 5.00 7.50 2.40 10.10
16.25 5.08 7.62 2.44 10.26
16.50 5.16 7.73 2.48 10.42
16.75 5.23 7.85 2.51 10.57
17.00 5.31 7.97 2.55 10.73
17.25 5.39 8.09 2.59 10.89
17.50 5.47 8.20 2.63 11.05
17.75 5.55 8.32 2.66 11.20
18.00 5.63 8.44 2.70 11.36
18.25 5.70 8.55 2.74 11.52
18.50 5.78 8.67 2.78 11.68
18.75 5.86 8.79 2.81 11.84
19.00 5.94 8.91 2.85 11.99
19.25 6.02 9.02 2.89 12.15
19.50 6.09 9.14 2.93 12.31
19.75 6.17 9.26 2.96 12.47
20.00 6.25 9.38 3.00 12.63
20.25 6.33 9.49 3.04 12.78
20.50 6.41 9.61 3.08 12.94
20.75 6.48 9.73 3.11 13.10
21.00 6.56 9.84 3.15 13.26
21.25 6.64 9.96 3.19 13.41
21.50 6.72 10.08 3.23 13.57
21.75 6.80 10.20 3.26 13.73
22.00 6.88 10.31 3.30 13.89
22.25 6.95 10.43 3.34 14.05
22.50 7.03 10.55 3.38 14.20
22.75 7.11 10.66 3.41 14.36
23.00 7.19 10.78 3.45 14.52
23.25 7.27 10.90 3.49 14.68
23.50 7.34 11.02 3.53 14.83
23.75 7.42 11.13 3.56 14.99
24.00 7.50 11.25 3.60 15.15
24.25 7.58 11.37 3.64 15.31
24.50 7.66 11.48 3.68 15.47
24.75 7.73 11.60 3.71 15.62
25.00 7.81 11.72 3.75 15.78
25.25 7.89 11.84 3.79 15.94
25.50 7.97 11.95 3.83 16.10
25.75 8.05 12.07 3.86 16.25
26.00 8.13 12.19 3.90 16.41
26.25 8.20 12.30 3.94 16.57
26.50 8.28 12.42 3.98 16.73
26.75 8.36 12.54 4.01 16.89
27.00 8.44 12.66 4.05 17.04
27.25 8.52 12.77 4.09 17.20
27.50 8.59 12.89 4.13 17.36
27.75 8.67 13.01 4.16 17.52
28.00 8.75 13.13 4.20 17.68
28.25 8.83 13.24 4.24 17.83
28.50 8.91 13.36 4.28 17.99
28.75 8.98 13.48 4.31 18.15
29.00 9.06 13.59 4.35 18.31
29.25 9.14 13.71 4.39 18.46
29.50 9.22 13.83 4.43 18.62
29.75 9.30 13.95 4.46 18.78
30.00 9.38 14.06 4.50 18.94
30.25 9.45 14.18 4.54 19.10
30.50 9.53 14.30 4.58 19.25
30.75 9.61 14.41 4.61 19.41
31.00 9.69 14.53 4.65 19.57
31.25 9.77 14.65 4.69 19.73
31.50 9.84 14.77 4.73 19.88
31.75 9.92 14.88 4.76 20.04
32.00 10.00 15.00 4.80 20.20
32.25 10.08 15.12 4.84 20.36
32.50 10.16 15.23 4.88 20.52
32.75 10.23 15.35 4.91 20.67
33.00 10.31 15.47 4.95 20.83
33.25 10.39 15.59 4.99 20.99
33.50 10.47 15.70 5.03 21.15
33.75 10.55 15.82 5.06 21.30
34.00 10.63 15.94 5.10 21.46
34.25 10.70 16.05 5.14 21.62
34.50 10.78 16.17 5.18 21.78
34.75 10.86 16.29 5.21 21.94
35.00 10.94 16.41 5.25 22.09

So, if I start with a 17lb grain bill for a 5.5 gallon batch (My next planned recipe, actually), am I really going to have a 10.75-ish gallon pre-boil volume?

I realize there are other losses to equipment that I'm not factoring in, but I'm hoping these numbers put me in an approximate understanding.

Your math is off. The sparge water volume is WAY too high, as is your preboil volumes...at least on the ones you show over 11 lbs of grain on....your numbers look better around the 10lb mark, but somewhere you are exponentially off when you start getting into your bigger grain numbers...and your sparge water values should not change nearly as much and youre preboil volume should not change hardly at all, as you should always have about 6.2-6.4 gallons of preboil wort...

 

[PseudoChef]

Your math is off. The sparge water volume is WAY too high, as is your preboil volumes...at least on the ones you show over 11 lbs of grain on....your numbers look better around the 10lb mark, but somewhere you are exponentially off when you start getting into your bigger grain numbers...and your sparge water values should not change nearly as much and youre preboil volume should not change hardly at all, as you should always have about 6.2-6.4 gallons of preboil wort...

Thanks, this is exactly what I want to know. I have read and been sparging with 1.5 times as much water as I mash with . Therefore, if I mash with 1.25 qts/lb, I sparge with 1.875 qts/lb (or thereabouts). Should I just be sparging with 1.5 qts/lb?

Can you step me through your procedure?

EDIT: This is what I'm getting from Palmer:

"Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer."

 

[eviljafar]

I did my first AG yesterday and I spent ages researching mash, sparge, pre-boil and post-boil volumes. Every time I considered a different recipe or made an adjustment I had a bunch or re-calcultions to do. It was starting to do my head in.

Anyway, I don't have to think about it any more, I'm now using BeerSmith. It works it all out for me. As I say I've only done one batch but it seemed to work out fine for me. I could play around with the grain bill in my recipe and the volumes all just updated themselves. You can adjust losses for evaporation, deadspace and trub and boil time.

 

[WortMonger]

Huge Beersmith fan here!!!!! I have quit referencing my brew books as much due to this wonderful little program. I have to say though, to really learn one needs the books/information and the manual formulation/math. I say this so one will know and understand their stuff so the Beersmith/Promash/software numbers will make complete sense. The program also helps me keep my paperwork to a minimum, lol, which was getting rather excessive. For $20 I love it.

 

[kenb]

Thanks, this is exactly what I want to know. I have read and been sparging with 1.5 times as much water as I mash with . Therefore, if I mash with 1.25 qts/lb, I sparge with 1.875 qts/lb (or thereabouts). Should I just be sparging with 1.5 qts/lb?

Can you step me through your procedure?

EDIT: This is what I'm getting from Palmer:

"Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer."

I also use beersmith and cannot recommmend it highly enough. It is not expensive and it will help you put toether recipes, and has a dozen or so different calculators again. Quite the time saver.
I usually use just a little more sparge water than mash water. Maybe 10% more. SO for example if my recipe called for 4 gallons of mash water, i might use 4.5 gallons of sparge water. No two people do it exactly alike, but beersmith wil allow you to tweak your recipe and then will suggest a certain amount of water depending on what you are shooting for.

 

[SenorWanderer]

So, if I start with a 17lb grain bill for a 5.5 gallon batch (My next planned recipe, actually), am I really going to have a 10.75-ish gallon pre-boil volume?

I realize there are other losses to equipment that I'm not factoring in, but I'm hoping these numbers put me in an approximate understanding.

it looks to me that you're using OG as a constant. the constant for a given batch should be batch size, which in turn dictates your pre-boil volume. 17 lbs of grain for a 5.5 gallon batch should give you a much bigger beer (maybe 1.075, as opposed to 1.050), not more water to boil.

as for sprage water, i don't follow any particular rules for the amount, i let everything else dictate the amount. I'll run through the process i use and maybe that will answer some questions.

lets assume the following:

5 gallon batch
10 lbs of grain (OG will be somewhere around 1.060, but this makes the math easier)
7 gallon pre-boil volume
1.5 quarts dead space in my MLT (dead space is trapped liquid that won't drain do to the dimensions and design of a vessel)
my mash process is a mash-out, and double sparge
i do all my math in quarts

so to hit 1.25q/lb we'll add 12.5q water, or 3 gallons, 16oz water. i'll always round this to 12 quarts and bump my strike water temp to compensate. the number mentioned for grain absorption, .125 g/lb is a good number, so 10 x .125= 1.25 gallons, or 5 quarts. so because i mash-out i'll add another 12 quarts for mash-out to raise the temp to 168. so for me my first running are 12 quarts mash-in + 12 quarts mash-out - 5 quarts grain absorption - 1.5 quarts dead space = 24 - 6.5 = 17.5 quarts. so in other words, when your MLT is done dripping with your first running, you should have 17.5 quarts in your pot. your pre-boil that we agreed on is 7 gallons, or 28 quarts. we already have 17.5, so we need 10.5 quarts. because i do a double sparge, i'll round to 11 and divide this number in 2 and sparge with 5.5 quarts twice. i know that 5.5 quarts sounds like not enough for 5 lbs of grain, but don't forget that you've already lost 5 quarts to the grain and 1.5 quarts to the tun. you won't lose those again. your first sparge should yield 100% of the sparge water back.

a couple things i've noticed. the 6%-8% that people throw around as a boil off number is WAY low. granted my location is much higher and dryer that most, but if i have to use a %, it's closer to 20%. i've been doing 3 gallon batches lately, so my pre-boil volume goal is 4.75 gallons. after a 90 minute boil i have 3.25 gallons in the kettle, and i write off that extra quart to hops and trub. the other thing is that i don't rely on a % for boil off, i've tested it. boil off really isn't a % anyway. if it was, you'd be able to boil a kettle of water forever and never boil it dry. if you have 1 kettle and you only do 1 batch size than you can rely on the same % every time once you know it. what i did is get out my burner, fill my kettle to x, boil for 60 min, let it cool, and measure it. this way you don't have to fuss with cooling shrinkage, and you'll know what to expect. if you have an 8 gallon kettle, fill it to 7 gallons, boil it for an hour and measure it once it's cool. if you got 5.5 gallons than than you lost 21% (6 quarts lost / 28 quarts total). but if you boil that 5.5 gallons for another hour you'll probably lose about 6 quarts again, not 21%.

ok, im done rambling, hope this helped somewhat.

 

[PseudoChef]

I don't think a pre-boil volume should be set in stone, however. If I up the grain amount, I up the initial infusion water amount. 14, for example, would be 17.5 qts.

That goes up, the pre-boil volume remains constant, therefore my sparge water volume must go down to achieve that same 7 gallons. Decreasing my sparge water volume is going to decrease the effectiveness that all the residual converted sugars are rinsed from the grains.

I still don't understand. Sorry. I'm rescinding back to AG n00b-ness!!! Argh!!

 

[SenorWanderer]

I don't think a pre-boil volume should be set in stone, however. If I up the grain amount, I up the initial infusion water amount. 14, for example, would be 17.5 qts.

That goes up, the pre-boil volume remains constant, therefore my sparge water volume must go down to achieve that same 7 gallons. Decreasing my sparge water volume is going to decrease the effectiveness that all the residual converted sugars are rinsed from the grains.

I still don't understand. Sorry. I'm rescinding back to AG n00b-ness!!! Argh!!

no, you're right, to a point. that's why a really big beer, like a trippel maybe, is boiled for 90 minutes instead of 60. more sugar means more grain which could mean a little more volume, but if you hold a given efficiency as a constant, you should be able to vary the amount of grain and achieve your different OGs using the same mash volumes and techniques. looking at your table of numbers it looks like your numbers are going up linearly, but that's not always the case. like EVERYONE has said, get beersmith and play around a little, things will start to make more sense.

the one thing that helped me the most was actually measuring my boil off by boiling some water. i now know exactly what i need to start with for a given kettle and a given volume into my fermenter.

 

[PseudoChef]

I have BeerSmith, but don't see information pertaining to sparge volumes...help a brutha out?

Will read more up on it as time permits.

 

[kenb]

I have BeerSmith, but don't see information pertaining to sparge volumes...help a brutha out?

Will read more up on it as time permits.

Just create a recipe, or import one. it will calculate your sparge and mash water...You will normally see something like between 3-4 gallons for boil and 4-5 gallons for sparge depending on the recipe and amount of grains used....

 

[eviljafar]

I have BeerSmith, but don't see information pertaining to sparge volumes...help a brutha out?

Will read more up on it as time permits.

You don't see it if you open the recipe up. Either look at the recipe summary in the lower window before you open the recipe up, or click the preview brewsheet button.

 

[WortMonger]

Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion,Single Decoction, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Mash Tun Weight: 27.00 lb
Mash Grain Weight: 19.75 lb Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Grain Temperature: 75.0 F Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Sparge Water: 7.04 gal Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE


Mash In Add 4.94 gal of water at 142.4 F for a rest at 130.0 F for 30 min
Step Add 4.94 gal of water at 184.2 F for a rest of 154.0 F for 75 min
Mash Out Decoct 3.67 gal of mash and boil it, add back to mash tun until 172.0 F is reached and rest 10 min then drain tun completely. Fill tun 2nd time with 7.04 gallons of 172 F stir and recirculate till clear. Empty mash tun completely. Done with the mash now boil.

Sorry, when I tried to copy and paste it was jumbled, these are the numbers for my last 12 gallons of pale ale.

 

[PseudoChef]

Yeah, I got it now. I'm still trying to grasp/figure out if setting a pre-determined boil volume/reducing sparge water is going to piss on my efficiency.

Here's my BeerSmith Report:

Mike McDole's American Nut Brown Ale
American Brown Ale


Type: Partial Mash
Date: 11/1/2007
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Brewer: Kyle Nordquist
Boil Size: 7.14 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 75.36 %
1.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.70 %
1.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 7.25 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.90 %
1.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 31.3 IBU
1.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 6.3 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 10.3 IBU
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 7.3 IBU
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (1 min) Hops 0.9 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.077 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.020 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.51 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 56.1 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 19.6 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out Total Grain Weight: 17.25 lb
Sparge Water: 4.07 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 5.39 gal of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F

 

[kenb]

Yeah, I got it now. I'm still trying to grasp/figure out if setting a pre-determined boil volume/reducing sparge water is going to piss on my efficiency.

Here's my BeerSmith Report:

Mike McDole's American Nut Brown Ale
American Brown Ale


Type: Partial Mash
Date: 11/1/2007
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Brewer: Kyle Nordquist
Boil Size: 7.14 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 75.36 %
1.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.70 %
1.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 7.25 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.90 %
1.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 31.3 IBU
1.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 6.3 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 10.3 IBU
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 7.3 IBU
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (1 min) Hops 0.9 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.077 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.020 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.51 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 56.1 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 19.6 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out Total Grain Weight: 17.25 lb
Sparge Water: 4.07 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 5.39 gal of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F

That looks about right. I am not sure what you are concerned about regarding sparge water? If you use a few gallons more water, your efficiency will drop, not increase........ie you would be watering down your wort.

 

[PseudoChef]

I'm just thinking that as the grain volume increases, the more sparge water they will need in order to efficiently rinse all the residual converted sugars. That's all.

 

[kenb]

I'm just thinking that as the grain volume increases, the more sparge water they will need in order to efficiently rinse all the residual converted sugars. That's all.

Well yes you do need a bit more overall water, but not as much as you would think....for example the difference between sparge water for 10 lbs of grains vs 20 lbs in not twice as much sparge water...it is more like a half gallon to a gallon more...and sometimes less as it is usually the mash water that is increased...
I just checked and in most of my beersmith calculated recipes, it is the mash water that increased as opposed to the sparge water..but either way, it usually comes out to between 7.5-10 gallons of total water for 10-25 lb grain bills...

 

[PseudoChef]

Thanks for all your help AND patience!

I'm going to upgrade my pot sooner, but I'm trying to see if I can't do this 17lb grain bill for an upcoming group brew day in my 7.5. Looks like I should be ok as long as I bring my spray bottle along!

 

[SPLASTiK]

Hey Mia,
Anyway, I am a noob too to all grain (only one batch so far.)
I don't know what kind of sparging you do, but this link helped me a lot, as I batch sparge:

http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

Denny has changed it up a little and doesn't infuse after mash anymore if he can: link. Makes it a little easier to shoot for a higher ratio if you can get away with it.

 

[miatawnt2b]

Thank you so much for your explanations everyone, I really appreciate it. I am playing with beersmith, and I didn't realize that it took equipment specifics into account when calculating water and such. So two more questions if you would please...

1) what exactly is "top up water for kettle" referring to under equipment details?

2) Say I find a recipe online for a 10 gal batch, and I want to make a 5.5 gal batch. Do I re-calculate my grain bill for 5.5 gal, or should I calculate for 6 gal assuming that there will be 2qt of wort left in the tun that I can't drain? (this assumes my mash tun i just built won't drain 2 qt which I have not calculated yet)

Thanks!
-J

 

[WortMonger]

As for the first question, I have never needed top up water (or at least not used it). The second, there is a conversion tool. Open a recipe and horizontally there are two yellow carboys of different size. I usually have to round everything off once I resize, but it is a great tool. I think you would use the top up thing if you measured and always had less than you wanted in your boil kettle (hence it would skew the numbers to compensate for that). You won't know that until you know that. It has taken me a little bit to clock in my new brew setup and then the beersmith software. Now it's up and running for me, and I have never had closer numbers.

P.S. Something I used in the brewpub that is way simpler than a site glass and just as accurate, a yard stick. Mark off gallons/half gallons on the stick one at a time as you fill it with water and you have an instant reference in your kettle when you need it. I clean it the next day and since it is always in my water and wort pre boil (or while still hot enough for me not to worry about bugs) I don't worry about infection. In the brewpub we used a long curtain rod that had been sanded and then marked off.

 

[IowaStateFan]

P.S. Something I used in the brewpub that is way simpler than a site glass and just as accurate, a yard stick. Mark off gallons/half gallons on the stick one at a time as you fill it with water and you have an instant reference in your kettle when you need it. I clean it the next day and since it is always in my water and wort pre boil (or while still hot enough for me not to worry about bugs) I don't worry about infection. In the brewpub we used a long curtain rod that had been sanded and then marked off.

I used a dremel tool to mark my long handled stainless steel brew spoon in 1/2g increments. It works great.

 

[WortMonger]

Something stainless is definitely better, I just mentioned the yard stick cause most people have an extra 10 laying around it seems, lol. I just like not having to use a site glass. I was even thinking of one day etching my kettle with gallon marks. I have to have a site glass on my HLT right now because it is too high for me to look into. I am thinking of going two tier in the future and then it wouldn't be needed, and I can get a different HLT (maybe a big ass cooler).