Souring/aging in bottles versus secondary

[hirschb]

I'm planning on making an Oud Bruin soon. Possibility from this recipe: http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/allgrain/AG-OudBruin.pdf
(If anyone has a better recipe suggestion, let me know.. I lover sour/funky/complex beers)
As with many wild/sour recipes, this one calls for extended time in the secondary before bottling/maturing. If I don't want to take up space in a carboy for many months, is there a disadvantage to bottling the beer and letting it age in the bottle (6-24 months)? I know that I'll have to make sure that the beer is almost completely finished fermenting (to prevent bottle bombs), but can the increased souring and maturing that comes with age simply be done in the bottle? I'd preferably like to leave the beer in the secondary for <1 month. Is there any reason that this will lead to disaster/ poor beer?

 

[sweetcell]

I know that I'll have to make sure that the beer is almost completely finished fermenting (to prevent bottle bombs), but can the increased souring and maturing that comes with age simply be done in the bottle? I'd preferably like to leave the beer in the secondary for <1 month.

the two things highlighted above are mutually exclusive. you can't add bugs and expect full attenuation in less than a month.

one possible option is to use a super-attenuating sacch, like 3711, which will get you really low on its own. at that point you can guestimate how much lower you're going to go, then cross your fingers. for example, if the 3711 gets you down to 1.004, and you assume that that the bugs will take you to 1.000, then you've got 2 vols of CO2 there. add a little malto dextrine to get you to 1.005, so you'll have 2.5 vols, bottle in thick glass, and cross you fingers. this approach rests on a lot of assumptions. i certainly wouldn't do this. repeat it enough times and eventually you can figure it out... but as a one-off attempt i wouldn't bother. plus, this approach probably won't lead to the best sour - not a lot of sugars for the bugs to eat.

bugs require time. if you can't give it months to age out, maybe consider some other style. mash or kettle souring will allow you to make sour beers (berliner wiesse) quickly.

 

[smokinghole]

The fastest I got a sour beer to ferment was in 5-6 months. It's a saison like grist with a blend of yeasts and bacteria from various lambics. It's a fast fermentation compared to other cultures I've used but it doesn't taste all that great at six months, or even a year. It starts getting good in a bottle around 18 months. I tend to bottle around the 9 month mark. You can let the beer fully ferment in a carboy and I would wager that in six months to a year it'd be fermented just not matured. So you can probably bottle at that point and it will continue to mature in the bottle.

Now if you want complexity you can maybe sour mash it, or brew it with lots of acidulated malt for a sour edge. Then ferment it like normal adding brett in primary. Then I measure the gravity, and using Orval bottle yeasts, bottle and prime for a low CO2 volume then allow the brett to continue in the bottle adding more carb to the beer. There's not a whole lot of fast ways to get these beers.

One way to try is a souring culture and elevated temperatures. After all a rise in temperature lets most yeast and bacteria grow easier and thus ferment and produce enzymes better as well as making enzymes faster to act. The generally held standard for optimal bacteria growth is 37C and yeast is 28C I think that's what I remember growing plates in while I was in college. I haven't done lab work in so long that I've forgotten some things.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Also I am theorizing that the extra time in the carboy intentionally allows SOME contact with oxygen which is necessary for the maturation to continue resulting in the product we expect. Kind of like with wine where that small amount of oxygen reacts with the compounds in the wine as part of the maturation. Even the 3 piece airlock most of us use allows oxygen in (see Better Bottle website for the scientific test and report data).

One day when I have too many carboys to use I intend to ferment a sour in a better bottle with their super fancy lid that allows zero oxygen in to see what it comes out like.

 

[sweetcell]

One way to try is a souring culture and elevated temperatures. After all a rise in temperature lets most yeast and bacteria grow easier and thus ferment and produce enzymes better as well as making enzymes faster to act. The generally held standard for optimal bacteria growth is 37C and yeast is 28C I think that's what I remember growing plates in while I was in college.

i have no exprience with this, but both Jamil and Vinnie have stated that fermenting bugs at higher temps increases your chances of off flavors. just this morning i was listening to the lastest "brewing with style" on flanders reds, and jamil said that warmth increases brett's ability to create acetic acid in the presence of O2. vinnie keeps his sours in the low to mid 60's.

that would be a great experiment: sour a wort, split into 2 carboys, keep one upstairs in the warm part of the house and the other in the cooler basement. age one year then compare.

 

[hirschb]

the two things highlighted above are mutually exclusive. you can't add bugs and expect full attenuation in less than a month.
bugs require time. if you can't give it months to age out, maybe consider some other style. mash or kettle souring will allow you to make sour beers (berliner wiesse) quickly.

Ah, this may be difficult. I figured that as long as the gravity went to 1.005 or so, any extra sugar break down and/or chemical changes in the beer wouldn't throw off a lot of CO2. I hadn't actually calculated that a 1.004 to 1.000 drop would lead to 2 vol CO2. Good to know.
A lot of my fermenting capacity is being taken up by a gose/BW split batch. The BW is in six 1 gallon jugs with varying time with lacto only ferm (0-6 days) before adding US-05. I'm hoping that between the US-05 and lacto, the beers will go down to <1.005 in less than a month. The gravity of the wort went from 1.045 to 1.025 with lacto only in 4 days. I wonder if and/or why the last bits of sugar would take super long for the lacto to chew. I may need to buy more carboys!
One other option. If I want to get the still souring/maturing beer out of my carboys, can I keg them? Any extra pressure could just be let off through the gas escape valve. Another issue, is that the kegs/carboys/bottles will have to wait it out in mid-seventies temps. I just moved to Florida, so it's a lot warmer here.... my keg fridge/ fermentation chamber isn't going to be able to handle more than 3 X 5 gallon batches at a time.
I guess this post/question comes down to one major question: When is the earliest time at which a sour can be bottled without risk of exploding? I don't mind leaving the beer in bottles several months (or two years). FredtheNukes point about purposing letting in oxygen is a good one, but also one that I may have to skip. If the gravity gets down to 1.004, and I add no priming sugar, this should be fine, right? It may lead to carbonation levels that are too high/low, but it shouldn't explode?

 

[duboman]

You can try what I just did for my Gose: mash and sparge as normal and boil for 15-20 minutes, chill to 95 into primary and pitch 2 packs of lactobacillus. Hold at 95 for 5-10 days and allow to sour the wort( mine went down to pH 3.9 in 4 days)

Once you've reached the sour you want resume the traditional boil, chill and pitch the yeast of your choice and ferment as normal. For my Gose I used WY1007.

Results are fantastic


Sent from the Commune

 

[hirschb]

You can try what I just did for my Gose: mash and sparge as normal and boil for 15-20 minutes, chill to 95 into primary and pitch 2 packs of lactobacillus. Hold at 95 for 5-10 days and allow to sour the wort( mine went down to pH 3.9 in 4 days)

Once you've reached the sour you want resume the traditional boil, chill and pitch the yeast of your choice and ferment as normal. For my Gose I used WY1007.
Sent from the Commune

Well, that is basically what I did for the BW, but with no boiling of the soured wort.

- One other thing that may be important: I infusion mashed the BW/Gose at 151 for 75min. There shouldn't be too many dextrins in the wort. Given that, I think this should hopefully go down close to 1.000 more quickly than a wort mashed at higher temps/shorter time. In other words, to what degree is the lengthy souring process a product of the lacto chomping on dextrins? If there are few dextrins, shouldn't the process be quicker?

 

[sweetcell]

I figured that as long as the gravity went to 1.005 or so, any extra sugar break down and/or chemical changes in the beer wouldn't throw off a lot of CO2. I hadn't actually calculated that a 1.004 to 1.000 drop would lead to 2 vol CO2. Good to know.

this is the maximum CO2 that could be produced. could be less. you also have to take into consideration how much dissolved CO2 you already have in the beer.

I may need to buy more carboys!

always a good solution

One other option. If I want to get the still souring/maturing beer out of my carboys, can I keg them? Any extra pressure could just be let off through the gas escape valve.

yup, that will work.

If the gravity gets down to 1.004, and I add no priming sugar, this should be fine, right? It may lead to carbonation levels that are too high/low, but it shouldn't explode?

yes, that's probably safe. if you're OK with less than ideal levels of carbonation. if i had to guess, i would suspect that you'll end up under-carbed... but better to be safe and a little flat, vs. gushers or bombs.

 

[smokinghole]

Something to consider. Not all sour cultures will bring the beer down to 1.000. My flanders stopped at 1.012 because I loaded it down with crystal malts. I get brett secondary imperial stouts to end at 1.020+ by loading it with a lot of black malt and mashing high and boiling long. Even with souring organisms they will only ferment so far depending on how you prepare the wort. Super attenuation is not a guarantee, these cultures will certainly go further than just a saccharomyces, or brett only fermentation and likely further still than a saccharomyces/brett fermentation. The reason being is that each organism and strain of each species will have a different genetic makeup. The various species will make different hydrolyzing enzymes to liberate glucose molecules off the complex carbohydrates in the wort. Some will produce beta capable enzymes and some will produce alpha then there are different carbon bonds for sugar based on the carbon molecules 1-6. So essentially saccharomyces only gets so far because it can only ferment the percentage of the wort that allows it to ferment that sugar or the sugars it has the ability to break the sugar bonds. Same with brett. When you combine the two you get a cumulative effect, more attenuation. When you increase the diversity of the culture you have varying concentration of each enzyme capable of facilitating metabolism of a molecule. Some of them are proteolytic enzymes too. There is too much that you don't know in order to correctly guess unless you have experience with a given mix of organisms how far it will ferment your given wort.

I've used some of my cultures enough times that I can be fairly accurate in predicting the terminal gravity in the bottle. I wouldn't really suggest relying on it going to 1.000 from 1.005 or higher because you might just end up way short or you might end up under estimating the further attenuation. I've only had one beer ever give me greater than 100% apparent attenuation but I wouldn't have expected it to get down to 0.996.

Also yes kegs are fine. In fact I ferment most all my beers in 10gal kegs and do my long term aging in them as well. I will add fruit in the same manner with a bag then just release pressure periodically to keep it from getting all carbonated before I bottle the beer.

My suggestion is to slow down a little let the cultures do the their thing. Get a feel for how they act in a similarly prepared wort and then you can start cranking things out faster. This is how I predominately brew my saisons. I never make a "clean" saison I tend to add lacto and brett. I also always pitch bacteria and brett in for primary. Once most of my active fermentation is over, I will crash the keg, maybe dry hop if I feel like it, and then bottle taking into account further attenuation depending on the gravity on the time of bottling. So instead of having a brett saison that stopped at 1.009 in a fermentor after two weeks and letting it sit there for 4-6 months, I bottle it and brew another beer. So starting around the 4 month mark it tends to be appropriately carbed and I have another beer right on its heels in bottles. I only have 4 10 gal kegs so in order to not tie them up for too long when I'm actively brewing this is how I keep things moving along.

 

[smokinghole]

i have no exprience with this, but both Jamil and Vinnie have stated that fermenting bugs at higher temps increases your chances of off flavors. just this morning i was listening to the lastest "brewing with style" on flanders reds, and jamil said that warmth increases brett's ability to create acetic acid in the presence of O2. vinnie keeps his sours in the low to mid 60's.

that would be a great experiment: sour a wort, split into 2 carboys, keep one upstairs in the warm part of the house and the other in the cooler basement. age one year then compare.

Increased temperatures makes it easier for the microbes to do everything. Some things are just made easier than others. I think for those of us using carboys or kegs you can greatly decrease the oxygen aspect and keep them warmer lessening the acetic acid production by brett. When you are using barrels like Russian River it's harder to control the oxygen ingress, you just have to manage it, where I could essentially eliminate it in a sealed keg kept warm. Post fermentation, given no exposure to air, a fermented beer technically should at or damn near 0ppb dissolved oxygen. I suspect brett needs more than even 50ppb with elevated temps to produce acetic acid in noticeable quantities.

Cooler temps is a tactic in the brewing industry for microbial control with barrel aging beers. I know of a brewery with a fairly substantial program that has a large dedicated area where they keep the barrels at a nice controlled temp, though it doesn't eliminate the effect of microbial contamination, it does decrease the sensory effects before they can do a sterile filtration on the way to packaging. This is more for non-sours mind you.

 

[hirschb]

Thanks Sweetcell & Smokinghole. I don't know what you look like Sweetcell, but I've probably met you before.... my wife and I have religiously attended funky/sour beer events in DC for the past several years. I need to buy you a beer for the good advice next time I'm up there visiting the wife.
I think my best solution for now is to monitor the gravity of my two beers really closely after 3-5 week fermentation, and when the Gose looks close to fully attenuated, keg it and rest it. For the 1 gallon BW's.... well, they may be taking up my experimental jug space for a while.
Yeah, I'll need to buy a couple more carboys/better bottles for aging future sours like the oud bruin. I also bought a bunch of brett strains recently, so having extra fermenting space will be needed for my brett saisons. I have a nice mixed saison culture from Dupont & Orabelle dregs, plus some 3711 in the mix, and I want to throw some brett in there as well. Argh, it sucks that my favorite beer types (funky/sour) take so long to make.

 

[sweetcell]

Not all sour cultures will bring the beer down to 1.000.

Super attenuation is not a guarantee

There is too much that you don't know in order to correctly guess unless you have experience with a given mix of organisms how far it will ferment your given wort.

I've used some of my cultures enough times that I can be fairly accurate in predicting the terminal gravity in the bottle. I wouldn't really suggest relying on it going to 1.000 from 1.005 or higher because you might just end up way short or you might end up under estimating the further attenuation.

My suggestion is to slow down a little let the cultures do the their thing. Get a feel for how they act in a similarly prepared wort and then you can start cranking things out faster.

^all of this. great words of wisdom.

the problem with planning on a 1.005 beer going down to 1.000 is that there are no guarantee that the sacch will get you to 1.005, nor that the bugs will end at 1.000. what happens if the beer stops at 1.010 before the bugs? what if the bugs only munch 2 points off of 1.005? you'll either have bombs or flat beer...

 

[FredTheNuke]

Let it sit in secondary for 6-9 months then add priming sugar, wine yeast and bottle.