Sour smell/taste on past 3 batches??

[Wakadaka]

My last 3 batches have all had the same sour smell and taste to them. I have been brewing for about 6 months, and I have had some great successes doing extract and partial mashes.

Things that were different about these brews: 2 of them were AG recipes (1st tries at AG) that I got from Brewmasters warehouse, 1 was a kit from AHS. 2 were from the same yeast, which was also the first time I made a starter. the other batch was my first attempt at washing yeast. The 2 AG batches also used hops from hopsdirect that I bought in bulk. Also, these batches have been the first ones done in warmer weather, although my apartment isn't much warmer than it has been in the winter. About 72, but they stay in swamp coolers with ice during fermentation. Also I got 2 new cats since I last brewed.

2 of the batches were done in the same plastic fermenter bucket, and the other was done in a Better Bottle.

I think this is an infection somewhere in my process, but I have been sanitizing the same way as always, if not more so due to the first batch I had to dump. I doubled my sanitation after that.

The first beer was in the primary for 5+ weeks, but I sampled it at 2-3 weeks, and the flavor didn't change at all. The other two have both been over 3 weeks now as well. (I know it isn't going to be tasting great at that point. I am still a noobie, but not a total noob, and I have a pretty good idea of what things you should be tasting like at different stages along the process.)


So possibilities for what I think it might be:
Infection somewhere in my siphon tubing
My tap water has gotten more bugs in it since it is warmer (I top off all my batches with cold water, but have used significantly less for these 3 batches compared to my first several because of a larger boil volume)
The warmer temperature after fermentation has messed with something
Alluminum brew pot leaching flavors
My cats have put a curse on my beer


I really have no idea what is wrong with my process. I was going to attribute two of the bad batches to the bucket that they were in holding bacteria, but when another batch in a different fermenter was the same way that ruled that out. This is incredibly frustrating due to the fact that this will be 15 gallons worth of beer and a lot of money literally down the drain, and I can't go on brewing because I don't know the issue.

Any help would be appreciated. Ideas on what is wrong? Best course of action if that can't be figured out?

 

[honeybadger]

If you're positive it's not going to age out, I'd start with the top up water - boil and cool it first and see if that makes a difference. Water quality varies depeding on a number of things - It looks like the weakest link to me.

 

[Wakadaka]

Will water from the same tap vary? Previous batches I have used 3-4 gallons of water to top off. All of these I used less than 2 gallons, and probably closer to a gallon in one of them.

Although, the tap is running at about 70 now as opposed to probably 55 or lower in the winter.

 

[Wakadaka]

"Don’t mash for long periods of time at low temperatures."

Just read htat on a BJCP off flavor thing for why a beer would taste sour. I did mash for 90 minutes on the first one (although that was what the recipe suggested BM's cream of 3 crops). I do DB stovetop AG, and my first time it dropped, but not below about 145 or so. The second AG was pretty much dead on at 152 for a bit over an hour.

 

[honeybadger]

Yup, it can change depending on the season and other factors. Next time you brew, boil and cool the water before you top up - see if that helps.

Sour flavors are usually caused by an infection, so it couldn't hurt to check your sanitation procedure aswell.

 

[honeybadger]

"Don’t mash for long periods of time at low temperatures."

Just read htat on a BJCP off flavor thing for why a beer would taste sour. I did mash for 90 minutes on the first one (although that was what the recipe suggested BM's cream of 3 crops). I do DB stovetop AG, and my first time it dropped, but not below about 145 or so. The second AG was pretty much dead on at 152 for a bit over an hour.

mmm... I think they may be talking very long mashes (overnight/days) but I could be wrong. Maybe someone else could shed some light on this?

 

[Wakadaka]

yea I think it is an infection, but it doesn't look like an infection. Probably not a reliable guage, but in all batches I have pitched a lot of healthy yeast as well, and sanitized the hell out of them.

The last time I used the bucket I had it soaking in oxyclean for 1 hour, rinsed very very throurougly, filled up the fermenter with 5+ gallons of star san, emptied it, refilled with a newly made star san solution, making sure to get all surfaces covered. Siphoned probably a gallon through all my siphon equipment. Could something really stay harbored that well in plastic after thorough sanitation? And even if some happen to survive, would it really over take the yeast that powerfully with a big healthy pitch?

After saying all that it makes me think it is definitely my top off water that infected the batches, in the event that it was an infection.

One other possibility that came to mind was too much residual star-san in the fermenters and on the equipment. I don't fear the foam as recommended on here, and sometimes leave a decent amount in my fermenter. In my better bottle it comes snaking out the top though. And it pours without foam out of the bucket.

Or it could be old star san? I have probably had the same bottle for 4 or 5 months, and I have hardly put a dent in it so far. People talk about leaving their mixed solution for a month though so I doubt that is it.

Sorry for such long posts.

 

[Wakadaka]

mmm... I think they may be talking very long mashes (overnight/days) but I could be wrong. Maybe someone else could shed some light on this?

I had never heard anything about that either, so i am assuming its something on the extreme ends of things. I didn't do any sort of ridiculously long mash or at low temperature, so I doubt thats it.

 

[honeybadger]

yea I think it is an infection, but it doesn't look like an infection. Probably not a reliable guage, but in all batches I have pitched a lot of healthy yeast as well, and sanitized the hell out of them.

The last time I used the bucket I had it soaking in oxyclean for 1 hour, rinsed very very throurougly, filled up the fermenter with 5+ gallons of star san, emptied it, refilled with a newly made star san solution, making sure to get all surfaces covered. Siphoned probably a gallon through all my siphon equipment. Could something really stay harbored that well in plastic after thorough sanitation? And even if some happen to survive, would it really over take the yeast that powerfully with a big healthy pitch?

After saying all that it makes me think it is definitely my top off water that infected the batches, in the event that it was an infection.

One other possibility that came to mind was too much residual star-san in the fermenters and on the equipment. I don't fear the foam as recommended on here, and sometimes leave a decent amount in my fermenter. In my better bottle it comes snaking out the top though. And it pours without foam out of the bucket.

Or it could be old star san? I have probably had the same bottle for 4 or 5 months, and I have hardly put a dent in it so far. People talk about leaving their mixed solution for a month though so I doubt that is it.

Sorry for such long posts.

Your sanitation sounds okay. Try boiling the water and let us know how it goes. If it doesn't sort it, we'll have another look.

 

[Wakadaka]

Alright. I guess I will try a 2.5 or so SMASH brew. I am really not trying to throw more money and time down the drain on trying to figure this out. Thanks for the input. I hadn't really thought much about my water because it had worked fine for other batches, but once I gather all my thoughts together it seems very likely

 

[honeybadger]

Alright. I guess I will try a 2.5 or so SMASH brew. I am really not trying to throw more money and time down the drain on trying to figure this out. Thanks for the input. I hadn't really thought much about my water because it had worked fine for other batches, but once I gather all my thoughts together it seems very likely

To be clear, you're not dumping the beer right? I'd make sure it had a solid month conditioning in the bottle before I didn't anything rash like that.

 

[Wakadaka]

Would an infection carry over to the bottles? I really would rather not risk a bunch of bottles harboring bacteria as well. This isn't anything subtle, it hits me hard when I open up a fermenter. I really don't see it conditioning out. I know everyone says NEVER dump a beer, but I just don't see this getting drinkable or at least enjoyable.

I'll give it a shot if the bottles will be fine

 

[Wakadaka]

Any other ideas out there? not that I don't agree with you honeybadger, and I really appreciate the help, but I figure a few more opinions can't hurt.

I am definitely going to try a small batch with fixing the water first though. I'm just planning on buying 3 or 4 lbs of grain, the cheapest yeast I can find and a few hop pellets. Even if it sucks it will be less than 10 bucks for solving the problem, peace of mind, and the beer to give my buds after they have already had 6 of my good beers.

 

[ILuvIPA]

Another possibility: Take a look at your bottling bucket spout. I had the same thing after my first 5 or 6 batches & found mold growing inside the spout. Replaced the spout & all plastic tubing. I now disassemble the bottling spout after each use. (spout comes apart into 3 pieces. Mold grows between the 2 clear or white plastic sleaves.)

http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/Italian-Bottling-Spigot.html

PS: might not be the issue, but worth checking. I never realized the spout should be disassembled for cleaning until I'd infected 3 batches.

 

[fungineer]

I had a similar experience with two of my recent batches. Sampling from the fermenter after 4 weeks they were sour like lemonaid. Both of them were perfectly fine after kegging. I'm not sure if this was suspended yeast (both were nottingham), the Star San from my theif, or something else, but it must not have been an infection because neither had a hint of sour after kegging.

 

[Wakadaka]

none of the beers have touched the bottling bucket yet, but +1 to taking apart the spigot. Take apart your auto-siphon between uses to if you have one.

i'm pretty sure its not suspended yeast. One had s-05 which I have tasted beforee, and the the other two had WLP300 (hefeweizen) so the yeast shouldn't contribute that flavor. It might be too much star-san, but it would be from my fermenters not from my sampling materials.

thanks for the extra input, let me know if you think of anything else it could be.

 

[paradoxic]

Any updates on this? I'm noticing it in my recent AG batches as well despite being extremely thorough on my cleaning processes.

 

[Wakadaka]

I haven't had anything successful since about may. I have tried a few AG batches, and one extract batch. All have had the same smell/taste.

I might buy a new glass carboy, and give the whole thing another whirl, but it is has just been so frustrating that I haven't even thought about brewing in months. (first day on this forum in forever)

 

[paradoxic]

I had this issue and beleieve it was yeast temperature while fermenting. Now that the weather has cooled off my beers are getting much better.

 

[shadows69]

I agree yeast temp. I would try fermenting in the low 60's and see if your results are the same. It's at least a good place to start.

 

[mychalg9]

I've had this same problem on my first two AG batches. I changed a lot of things after the first one too: I used store bought water, bought a chiller, fermented at cooler temps (low 60's). This current batch is still in the fermenter but smells sour like the last one. I won't be able to tell for sure if its messed up until I bottle and taste it, but it is not promising. The only constant I can think of is my fermenting bucket, so I may have to get a new one and try it out in case the current one has bacteria.