Sour Brewers, let's discuss some possibilities

[jmo88]

I have an idea of what I want for my first sour beer. I've dabbled in brett, but never pedio or lacto before. I am thinking of brewing a good base beer (a low alcohol dubbel of about 6%) but bugs will be added along with sour cherries and oak cubes for a final sour beer of about 8%. Now on to the questions or ideas I've been toying with.

I know Berliner Weisse is a low IBU beer soured with lactobacillus to create the lactic acid. Could I create a dubbel with <8 IBU's and inoculate it with lactobacillus first for a day or two and then add the saccharomyces to create a good sour beer? I could then add the brett with the cherries and oak. Not that I need to do this or avoid pedio, but is it a feasible possibility?

It seems that the above fermentation concept is only used in Berliner Weisse brewing and I'm not sure why. Can't we make a bigger sour beer with using lacto -> sacc -> brett as opposed to the pedio,/sacc/brett combo at the beginning of fermentation?

 

[yellowthere]

If you want to go all lacto, the most recent issue of Zymurgy outlines the process of bringing the unhopped wort to a brief boil, letting it cool to 100F, innoculating with lacto in the kettle, then waiting 12-18 hours, then boiling like normal. This will also kill everything so no worries about contamination. I plan on trying this with a berliner and a brown when it gets warmer outside, as I will be doing this in the garage. Both recipes were given using the same technique.

Also the author addresses the concern of the PH being too low for normal yeast to work well, saying that it's never been a problem for him.

 

[Oldsock]

The only issue with this general method is that if you let the beer get really sour, the Sacch will have a hard time completing a healthy primary fermentation. I did this pre-souring method for 3 days, boiled the wort, and then did a 100% Brett B fermentation with good results.

 

[Almighty]

I'm just not sure how well the beer will do with only 8 IBUs. I feel with a malt forward 6% dubbel it will get out of balance. Maybe not because the sourness will balance the sweet. My thinking is that Flanders Reds and Bruins are usually hopped to at least 20 IBUs. But lambics still work with under 10 IBUs, so maybe you're fine.

I think your method will work to produce a sour beer but if you are waiting on the Brett to give you some complexity and funk then why not use pedio?

 

[jmo88]

The only issue with this general method is that if you let the beer get really sour, the Sacch will have a hard time completing a healthy primary fermentation. I did this pre-souring method for 3 days, boiled the wort, and then did a 100% Brett B fermentation with good results.

So many ways to skin a cat. So you are saying your souring was essentially a sour mash and you locked in that sourness with the boil, giving a fixed sourness. The all brett is an interesting idea to avoid the sacch giving up on the fermentation. If I followed this method, then I wouldn't need to keep the IBU's below 8, right? The lacto could go to work in the unhopped mash and I could boil and hop as normal. How long did the brett take to finish out and become drinkable, or peak?

I think your method will work to produce a sour beer but if you are waiting on the Brett to give you some complexity and funk then why not use pedio?

I have nothing against pedio. I am just interested in getting to know all the possibilities. Though I understand good sour beers take time and there is no substitution for that, I am also interested in attempting a method that produces a good sour after 6-12 months rather than 2 years. I don't want a quick sour but I want to try different methods resulting in different durations of maturity. The one method I have no interest in exploring is simply adding lactic acid.

 

[Oldsock]

Mine was actually completely unhopped, although a few IBUs would be fine (bitter and sour are rarely a good combo). 100% Brett ferments are generally done within a month or so, just pitch about as much as you would for a lager. About 6 months from brewing it is very nice, lots of cherry, some funk, solid sourness etc... Most of that batch was blended with a clean portion of the same beer to give a light tartness, but I didn't like the results especially so I ended up blending it and adding fruit.

 

[jmo88]

Mine was actually completely unhopped, although a few IBUs would be fine (bitter and sour are rarely a good combo). 100% Brett ferments are generally done within a month or so, just pitch about as much as you would for a lager. About 6 months from brewing it is very nice, lots of cherry, some funk, solid sourness etc... Most of that batch was blended with a clean portion of the same beer to give a light tartness, but I didn't like the results especially so I ended up blending it and adding fruit.

Okay. So If I follow something similar to this I basically see the souring as two possibilities, correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Mash as normal then decrease to ~100F for a few days to achieve the sour mash. Boil as normal and hop lightly. Pitch brett along with oak and cherries or allow brett to finish in a month or so and rack to a secondary with cherries and oak for aging.

2. Mash as normal and boil as normal (nothing sour yet). Hop to <8 IBU's. Pitch a pure lacto culture and let ferment for a couple days before pitching the brett. In a month or so, rack to secondary with oak and cherries.

What are some of the differences I can expect, assuming these are correct, with the flavor and aroma profiles of these two methods?

 

[Almighty]

First, there are several ways to do a sour mash. And from what I have gathered it doesn't matter the method but the best results are from keeping the wort anaerobic. A couple ways I've heard are covering the grains with saran wrap or drain the wort into a keg a purging with CO2.

The only differences would be the flavors that you get from a sour mash that is then boiled (so you lose some of aroma/flavor either good or bad) Vs. the flavors you get from lacto (which can be subtle citrus notes). I prefer the second method but people have made great beers both ways.

And at least for me I don't see any reason for a secondary.

 

[jmo88]

Alright. I think I've settled on the sour mash followed by a pitch of brett. That way I can add more than 8 IBU's (probably 15-20) and don't need to rely on a pitch of lacto in the fermenter and the 100% brett fermentation can survive the pH.

As for the sour mash, it seems I have a few options here. The option that would be easiest for me would be to fill my mash tun as normal and after the 60 minute single-infusion, drop the temp to 100F and let sit for a day or so until it reaches the desired sourness. From there I would then perform a fly sparge as normal and do a full 60-90 minute boil.

I've read several threads of sour mashing a small portion of wort with some grain and adding that to the fermenter of unsoured wort. Why not just sour the whole grain bill before the runoff? Do I need to be concerned with tannin extraction with all that grain?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I've read several threads of sour mashing a small portion of wort with some grain and adding that to the fermenter of unsoured wort. Why not just sour the whole grain bill before the runoff? Do I need to be concerned with tannin extraction with all that grain?

Either you don't want the beer very sour and/or you don't have the ability to keep 15lbs of water and grain at 120F for hours or days.

In my case, both.

 

[jmo88]

Either you don't want the beer very sour and/or you don't have the ability to keep 15lbs of water and grain at 120F for hours or days.

In my case, both.

Well I'm not sure I can keep that temp for very long either. All I know is that I can maintain an hour mash without a noticeable drop in my ten gallon rubbermaid. I'm hoping to cool the mash to about 120F and then put the lid on and let it sit until it becomes sour enough or drops below 100F. I suppose I can pull a small decoction if the temp falls too soon. As long as souring the full mash will not have detrimental effects on my beer, I'm going for it. I am a little concerned about a tannic flavor from that quantity of grains sitting in the wort for that long. Perhaps the low temperature will be insignificant in that regard.

 

[mutedog]

I've used an adjustable fish tank heater to keep a water bath at a certain temperature for a number of days in order to grow Koji spores on rice for Sake.

Perhaps something similar could be done to keep your sour mash at the temp you need?