So you think you know 220v wiring? Well i need your help.

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zgja2

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Greetings!

I recently moved and now have to once again furure out how to power my 220V single vessel brewery. The house i moved in to has RV hookups which may make it pretty easy. The outlet panel is outside the garage but it should be pretty easy to relocate it indoors. The only hang up is making sure i have GFI protection. Any help as to what the easiest (and cheapest) way would be.

Pictures to follow.
 
My main panel has a 50 amp breaker which feeds this sub panel.

IMG_3482.jpg


That panel then feeds this sub panel.
IMG_3480.jpg


Which then goes to this outside outlet box
IMG_3478.jpg
 
Can i just keep everything the same, move the outlet box inside and replace the breaker inside it with a 30A GFI breaker?
 
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me can chime in, but something looks wrong there. Main panel #2 and #4 feed the sub panel - that makes sense.
Sub panel #1 feeds the RV panel and #3 feeds the fridge - which means those should only have 120v each. I would check the subpanel feeding to the RV panel - if the RV panel has 240v, then it should be fed by a double-pole breaker in the subpanel. I may be missing something here.
 
I believe the breaker marked "generator" feeds the pictured outlet panel. Not sure why it is called that. Will test to see if that is true.
 
Greetings!

I recently moved and now have to once again furure out how to power my 220V single vessel brewery. The house i moved in to has RV hookups which may make it pretty easy. The outlet panel is outside the garage but it should be pretty easy to relocate it indoors. The only hang up is making sure i have GFI protection. Any help as to what the easiest (and cheapest) way would be.

Pictures to follow.
I would definitely get GFCI Breakers.
They cost more but then you don't need to put a GFCI on the other end.
 
Can i just keep everything the same, move the outlet box inside and replace the breaker inside it with a 30A GFI breaker?
Sounds like a plan!

I believe the breaker marked "generator" feeds the pictured outlet panel. Not sure why it is called that. Will test to see if that is true.

Could the Generator breaker and associated 240v plug be intended to allow a generator to power the house in case of a power outage?
Yeah, that’s the ticket!

If your power source (utility company) is dead, the outlet will power the panels that are connected by the breakers (including your power source).
If your power source is alive, your outlet will be powered up as long as all those breakers in the chain are on.
 
Could the Generator breaker and associated 240v plug be intended to allow a generator to power the house in case of a power outage?

It appears to be just another circuit, alongside other output circuits. It has the proper outlet i need on it. How would i know if it is for power input to the house?
 
In general, a spa panel may be had cheaper than a GFCI breaker + new receptacle. Spa panel prices have risen and GFCI breakers have come down some, so this may no longer be the case.

The last panel pictured has the outlet i need in it. I am thinking i just need to replace the breakers in it with gfi breakers and move the panel where i need it. No need for new outlet or new panel. Thoughts? Other hang up is the fact that circuit is marked "generator". Any clue why?
 
This setup in the photos is for backfeeding the panel with a generator. Unless you know what you're doing, you should not be venturing into that territory. Turn It into a brewing outlet.
 
This setup in the photos is for backfeeding the panel with a generator. Unless you know what you're doing, you should not be venturing into that territory. Turn It into a brewing outlet.

And there lies my question. How would i do that? Should i just add another circuit and spa panel and avoid the existing stuff. Or re-hash the existing stuff since there is already a usable panel and outlet.
 
I'd remove the box with the generator plug, put a spa panel in its place, and then hang a twistlock outlet of of the spa panel. You could put a gfci breaker in the existing generator panel, but It would probably cost 2x more than the Whole spa panel.
 
I'd remove the box with the generator plug, put a spa panel in its place, and then hang a twistlock outlet of of the spa panel. You could put a gfci breaker in the existing generator panel, but It would probably cost 2x more than the Whole spa panel.

Ok. So if i do that do i have to keep neutral and ground seperate all the way back to the main panel, or just back to the next sub panel?
 
The only place your neutral and ground should be bonded together is in the main feeder panel.
If you can run a new ground rod near your sub panel I would; last RV park I built I put a ground rod at each sub panel.
 
hmmm. Dont really want to put a ground rod in my garage. The Main panel and both sub panels are in the same room (my garage).
 
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but if that was originally set up for a generator, I'd be careful that there's not some kind of switch in the main panel that would turn off the circuit from the mains and draw power from the generator? So pull power from "Generator" receptacle instead of powerlines
 
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but if that was originally set up for a generator, I'd be careful that there's not some kind of switch in the main panel that would turn off the circuit from the mains and draw power from the generator? So pull power from "Generator" receptacle instead of powerlines

That is code in most places now. The generator feed should have some type of switch to prevent power from moving from the house out to the main supply line. It’s a huge safety hazard to push power from the house to the main as it will easily electrocute a lineman repairing a downed line.

You definitely need to look into that. It wasn’t much of an issue in years past but now that generators are so common codes are catching up to the trend.
 
Based on your 2nd to last picture, the 30amp breaker for you RV is 120v/30amp. There should be 3 wire for this breaker to supply the outlet for the RV(there could be a forth, but you need to remove cover panel to verify) At least two of these wires will be #10 and the third wire should be minimum of #12(one size smaller) or #10 (same as feeder/neutral wires). The colors of the 2) #10 wires are probably red/black, or black/white w/ #10 with a #12 bare copper(or green coated wire).
If this is correct and it is not supplying any other outlets and you only need 220v and not additional 110v outlets, it can be done.
First you need to purchase a "20/30 quad" breaker that fits the space of the RV and RV breakers. This quad breaker will have a tab that connects the two outside trip levers together, and the two inside breakers will be connected with another tab.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Siemens-...0699207_10000001836&wl14=quad breaker&veh=sem

20-30 quad breaker 1.jpg

https://jet.com/product/detail/024f...ac4d&msclkid=87a7cc8e6739124b335496fd31c44ce1

20-30 quad breaker 2.jpg

If you buy the a breaker similar to the first link, then you don't need to do anything to the breaker. If it's similar to the second, then you need to remove the connecting tab between the outside breakers, not the center tab. You need this tab to make 220v and the purpose of the tab is so that if one leg trips, so does the other.

Your existing frig breaker will be attached to one of the outside pole/breaker, the other outside pole/breaker will not be used. The two inside pole/breakers will be for the 220v to power you brewing devise.

Now, depending on what color wires are for you brewing outlet, it will probably be white/black. If so, remove the white wire from the neutral bar and attach it to one of the two center poles. The black wire will go to the other. Now, using a white colored wire for a hot leg in a panel is not allowed(smaller than #8), so the best thing to do is wrap as much of the wire as you can with red tape. On the other end of the wire where you brewing equipment is, wrap as much of the white wire as you can with red tape.

If your two wires in the panel are black/red or red/black/white then you hook up the ends of the red and black to separate center poles on the breaker. The white won't be used. On the other end where you brewing equipment is those wires would attach to the hot screws on your outlet. Here white won't be used, either.

BTW, there is probably a green wire or bare copper wire going from the sub panel to the brewing equipment. If not, then I can explain that if needed. Also, if you need 120 and 220 in you brewing equipment area, then the above won't work. You will need an additional sub panel near your brewing equipment will need more explanation.

Post a picture of your subpanel with cover off so I/others can see the wires coming in/out of the panel and from the breakers

Oh, Safety First...invest in a decent multimeter. You really need to check your work before plugging in expensive equiptment. I like the digital ones for most applications.

I also left out using a 220v GFI breaker scenario because they are expensive and requires a more time in moving wires and breakers in your existing subpanel.

-Brian
 
hmmm. Dont really want to put a ground rod in my garage. The Main panel and both sub panels are in the same room (my garage).

you shouldn't need a ground rod at the sub panel, especially if in the same room/building. this assumes you have the appropriate equipment grounding conductor run with the feeder circuit from the main panel to the sub.

a common instance when you need an additional ground rod is if you have an out building with a sub panel in it. code requires re-establishing a grounding electrode system at the out building, most easily accomplished with a couple ground rods.
 
To be "code" a transfer switch for the Whole panel would need to be sized for the entire thing i'd guess. That's big bucks. What i'm seeing in those photos Looks like a DIY backfeed situation. You don't need a huge transfer switch If you are only using a 7-8LW generator. I've done what's in these photos myself in a few houses. Where I live, I don't need inspections for work I do myself, and it doesn't have to meet any code. Now, If you backfeed a pole pig and kill a power guy, or burn your house down there's going to be problems..... If you want to use a portable generator for your house, the Reliant 6/10 circuit transfer switches are the way to go . Just use the existing branch for a 220 outlet and don't write "generator" on It with a sharpie ;^)
 
To be "code" a transfer switch for the Whole panel would need to be sized for the entire thing i'd guess. That's big bucks. What i'm seeing in those photos Looks like a DIY backfeed situation. You don't need a huge transfer switch If you are only using a 7-8LW generator. I've done what's in these photos myself in a few houses. Where I live, I don't need inspections for work I do myself, and it doesn't have to meet any code. Now, If you backfeed a pole pig and kill a power guy, or burn your house down there's going to be problems..... If you want to use a portable generator for your house, the Reliant 6/10 circuit transfer switches are the way to go . Just use the existing branch for a 220 outlet and don't write "generator" on It with a sharpie ;^)

Just got a hold of the previous owner. He said it was wired for a gen to back feed. Of course he said make sure your main service switch connecting to the grid is off. Said it like 10 times. He said can also use that circuit as normal, as an outlet. Guess it birings me back to the question, can i just swap the breaker in the outlet box with a 30A gfci breaker and be done with it.
 
Yes. But it's going to cost a lot more than a spa panel. And make sure you get the right brand for your panel. Some makes are really tough to find GFCI breakers for.
 
so prob get a spa panel and a 30A breaker to drop in that sub panel?
 
so prob get a spa panel and a 30A breaker to drop in that sub panel?

Why restrict yourself to 30amps? You said the outlet isn't far from the main panel. The main drawback for 50 amp is the wire costs more, but if your run is short, the total cost will be less since the spa panel comes with a 50 amp GFCI breaker anyway. From the look of things, the existing subpanel is already wired for 50 amp, so you wouldn't even need to rewire anything - just buy a spa panel with a GFCI breaker that matches the existing subpanel style, replace the breaker with the GFCI one, and toss the rest.

50 amp is so much better than 30 amp - it allows you to run two large heating elements at once, which really speeds up heating times and thus a shorter brew day.
 
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You guys sure know how to make a simple job complicated!!!

Just plug in and go .......... what's so complicated about that? 2&4 are feeding the sub panel, that gives you 30 amps on that circuit, regardless of what the breaker on the sub panel is. Why eliminate the sub panel at all? You have two more positions on the main panel, which presumably can accept whatever size breaker you choose. Drop another breaker in for your brew system, and use it to power your spa panel if that's what you are using. I seem to be the only one here who isn't afraid of using 240 without GFCI, but I won't go there again, except to say that proper grounding will save your life. GFCI may or may not.

DO NOT EVER EVER EVER EVER connect a generator without having a proper transfer switch that physically disconnects the mains before the generator can be put on line. This generator hookup is 100% illegal and can easily kill someone. Breakers do NOT substitute for a transfer switch which is a knife switch, and 100% reliable. Feedback from a generator will go through the transformer, and be bumped up to whatever the transmission voltage is.... 10K, or more, and kill a lineman. Whatever moron set this up for a generator should be hung by this thumbs while being boiled in oil an inch at a time!!!

H.W.
 
2 and 4 is a 50A circuit. All breakers are 50A upstream of that 4 prong outlet. I need 30A somewhere. and GFCI if i can help it.

I do not intend on pluging in a generator. Dont worry.
 
Why restrict yourself to 30amps? You said the outlet isn't far from the main panel. The main drawback for 50 amp is the wire costs more, but if your run is short, the total cost will be less since the spa panel comes with a 50 amp GFCI breaker anyway. From the look of things, the existing subpanel is already wired for 50 amp, so you wouldn't even need to rewire anything - just buy a spa panel with a GFCI breaker that matches the existing subpanel style, replace the breaker with the GFCI one, and toss the rest.

50 amp is so much better than 30 amp - it allows you to run two large heating elements at once, which really speeds up heating times and thus a shorter brew day.

My brewery is already built. Its single element. 5500w. and a pump. Is it kosher to run that on a 50A breaker
 
if i understand correctly, the generator receptacle is on the exterior and @zgia2 wants to move it indoors. my advice would be if the generator receptacle wiring is accessible, cut it short and relocate the generator receptacle. get a 50A spa panel and rig up a cord connection so you can plug it into the generator receptacle. then another plug on the load side of the spa panel to plug in your brew panel. if existing brew panel is configured for 30 amp, may need to get a different plug on your brew panel to mate up with the 30 amp plug. or swap out the 50 amp breaker in the main panel with a 'regular' 30 amp breaker but leave all the other wiring in place. a 30 amp regular breaker is cheap, like, $10. might be cheaper to do that than to get a new plug for your brew panel.
 
My brew panel has a 4 prong plug that i thought would mate to this existing outlet making it a very easy change. I am looking at it now an it may be different. Will check when i get home. Thanks yall!
 
I would definitely get GFCI Breakers.
They cost more but then you don't need to put a GFCI on the other end.
having the extra main power switch near the brewing area can be a nice feature... plus a gfci works best when its close to the load from some of what I read... This is one of the reasons spa gfci panels need to be located near the spa and why 15a gfci devices are located in the outlets and generally not in the main panel.
 
if i understand correctly, the generator receptacle is on the exterior and @zgia2 wants to move it indoors. my advice would be if the generator receptacle wiring is accessible, cut it short and relocate the generator receptacle. get a 50A spa panel and rig up a cord connection so you can plug it into the generator receptacle. then another plug on the load side of the spa panel to plug in your brew panel. if existing brew panel is configured for 30 amp, may need to get a different plug on your brew panel to mate up with the 30 amp plug. or swap out the 50 amp breaker in the main panel with a 'regular' 30 amp breaker but leave all the other wiring in place. a 30 amp regular breaker is cheap, like, $10. might be cheaper to do that than to get a new plug for your brew panel.
Why cant he plug his 30a panel into a 50a circuit without swapping the main breaker? Surely the control panel has breakers or fuses to protect all the smaller circuits inside and come out anyway right? Its no different than plugging a lamp that draws 60w max into a 15 amp household outlet. Or is it?
 
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The plug on a generator panel will be gendered with a male plug; you don't want to source power from it.
The spa panel will have a female plug if it has a plug at all; this is what he should be using for his brewery.

If all your wiring is rated for 50A then you can run your brewery on a 50A breaker. Breakers protect the wiring, keeping you from burning your house down.
So use the 60w lamp plugged into a 15A circuit example brought up a few post up; the wiring on the lamp is going to be sized appropriately for 15A.

*I don't know if I am following the discussion correct or not.
 
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