So I tried the Whole Keep your Beer in the Primary Longer this Time Around...

[Bobby_M]

In that case, most of the BJCP judges he ends up with likes whatever he's doing as well. I'd really like to do a mini batch of some generic ale in two 1-gallon jugs where one is racked into a secondary and placed right next to the undisturbed other primary. Wait another 3 weeks and compare the clarity. I'd bet they'd be darn close.

 

[Kevin Dean]

In that case, most of the BJCP judges he ends up with likes whatever he's doing as well.

Those judges measure conformance to a specifc style of beer. It's vital for people interested in competing but for someone who is interested in making good, drinkable beer styles exist only as flavour guidelines, not as absolute traits that make a beer "good".

I'm not by any means saying Jamil or ANYONE makes bad beer, or that people's methods are wrong. Simply that different procedures yield different beers and it's up to the drinker to decide if that difference results in a better or worse beer. I, for instance, like esters a LOT, even in beers that have esters listed as "undesirable". My wife hates esters even in a style-perfect hefe.

I'd really like to do a mini batch of some generic ale in two 1-gallon jugs where one is racked into a secondary and placed right next to the undisturbed other primary. Wait another 3 weeks and compare the clarity.

I'd actually like to do that as well, I'm kind of doubtful of everything until I've done it, or had first-hand evidence of it being done. I'm still too "new" to do that myself and still too low on my beer supply.

I'd bet they'd be darn close.

I'd think so too. I'm willing to bet that the temp of the fermenters would be signifigantly more important to both taste and clarity. Perhaps that can be taken even further, perhaps some strains will produce better results in a single-stage while some produce better results with the use of a secondary. It would be interesting to see what your experiment yeilds if it actually interests you enough to try.

 

[LS_Grimmy]

Tell that to Jamil Z. He's not having any trouble with 3-4 week primaries. He mentioned more than once that extending primary and skipping secondary was one of the biggest improvements he's made in his process. I don't like putting too many people on a pedestal but he wins so many damn awards it's hard to ignore.

Yes I actually listened to that show on the "Leaving the beer on the trub" and I agree leaving it on the trub will not harm your beer. I have left mine on for a month with no ill effects....Good onld brewingnetwork.com

 

[BrewBrain]

In theory, I'm totally bought in to the "yeast is good" point of view. I decided with my latest creation to primary for four weeks and secondary for one. I'm now going on five weeks in primary, but I'll maybe rack tonight. Due to a bottle shortage I'll probably keep it in secondary for at least two weeks.

Also, my trub straining talents suck. Most of what's in the brew pot ends up in my primary bucket. No off flavor problems so far with short primaries, but who knows what I'll find after five weeks on the muck:fro:

 

[BierMuncher]

The “typical” homebrew process mirrors that of a normal brewery.

Crushing, mashing, sparging, cooking, cooling, pitching, fermenting, conditioning, clarifying, carbonating and packaging.

It’s hard to imagine a Stone Brewery, or a Sierra Nevada, Dog Fish Head, NewCastle Brewery or other top-craft brewer leaving their beer in the primary tanks any longer than is necessary for the fermentation to complete. They may have massive storage for clearing the beer and may allow for extended cask and bottle conditioning, but those primaries are producing their bread and butter. I’d be interested in knowing what the timeline is for some of those breweries.

I agree that yeast helps to clean up after itself and is a necessary component for conditioning. But how much is enough? How much might be too much? Let’s face it…yeast is always present in beer…even down to that last sip (unless filtered). If there is enough yeast to prime/condition beer in the bottle, how do we know that’s not enough for the “clean up” process as well?

I know that Jamil has recently espoused longer (and exclusive use of) primaries. I’m not so sure that is what has won him awards so much as his (self confessed) practice of stashing bottles away for months (sometimes years) and then discovering how they’ve matured (conditioned maybe?) to perfection in that time.

Maybe it is simply those trace amounts of yeast in the bottles that sit in his basement for 8 months that are winning him awards…and not 3 inches of trub at the bottom of his primary.

For me...anything 1.045 and higher gets 10-14 days in the primary and then to the secondary for conditioning.

Anything less than 1.045...once the hydro stops moving...tack on 48 hours and rack to secondary.

Will that win me awards???...not unless I bottle and stash for a year like Jamil

 

[RadicalEd]

Trub straining? Ha! I've recently just taken to dumping the entire pot into the carboy once it's semi-cooled, and let a little ice-water do the rest of the work . That is the advantage of partial boils .

I've personally left a hefe in primary for a month before kegging it cuz I was still getting frequent airlock activity; it came out quiet smooth and tasty. In fact, I'm drinking one now. It doesn't really have much of an estery taste (despite fermenting at hot*F), but there have been absolutely no problems with it. I've shared it with a few college buddies, some who brew and some who don't, and most tend to agree that it tastes much better than the standard brew.

I'm a lazy SOB, so if I can get away with it, just racking once (to keg) and still get comparable results, I'm more than open to the idea of no secondary. And it lets me have more batches going at once, too .

 

[malkore]

airlock bubble does NOT equal fermentation.
fermentation creates CO2. CO2 dissolves into solution. vibrations, temperature changes, and just randomness will cause finished beer to burp CO2.

this is why a hydrometer is the ONLY way to know if the beer is done or not. period.

 

[RLinNH]

Just took a Hydro reading. I started at 1.051. I am now at 1.017. I'll take 2 more readings, one toworrow night and another on Friday night. If the reading doesn't change, I'll rack to secondary on Saturday. And yes, the hydro reading tasted very Yummy, as far as Flat Beers go.


Just a side note, but I have always been the guy that has never let my beers sit for any lobger then 8 days in the Primary. This is the longest so far going on 16 days this evening. Also, I have never taken Hydrometer readings from the primary in fear of infection(and that's with 14 years of brewing). But with todays Star San, it just makes to much sense to insure that the Fermentation is done before I go racking into the Secondary. I am looking forward to trying this beer when it is bottled and carbonated.

 

[RadicalEd]

airlock bubble does NOT equal fermentation.
fermentation creates CO2. CO2 dissolves into solution. vibrations, temperature changes, and just randomness will cause finished beer to burp CO2.

this is why a hydrometer is the ONLY way to know if the beer is done or not. period.

Hehehe, yeah I know that now. I was a noob back then; I got a good month's more experience now!

 

[delboy]

The “typical” homebrew process mirrors that of a normal brewery.

Crushing, mashing, sparging, cooking, cooling, pitching, fermenting, conditioning, clarifying, carbonating and packaging.

It’s hard to imagine a Stone Brewery, or a Sierra Nevada, Dog Fish Head, NewCastle Brewery or other top-craft brewer leaving their beer in the primary tanks any longer than is necessary for the fermentation to complete. They may have massive storage for clearing the beer and may allow for extended cask and bottle conditioning, but those primaries are producing their bread and butter. I’d be interested in knowing what the timeline is for some of those breweries.

I think most microbreweries have the beer out of the primary after a matter of a few days and almost certainly no longer than a week.
As you say its their bread and butter and they have to make sure to get it in and out again quickly, us homebrewers have the luxury of doing things differently, we don't have accountants on our backs.
I don't think we should always try to emulate what the breweries do, they can't afford long conditioning peroids to improve the beer, we can.

 

[brewt00l]

Those judges measure conformance to a specifc style of beer. It's vital for people interested in competing but for someone who is interested in making good, drinkable beer styles exist only as flavour guidelines, not as absolute traits that make a beer "good".

I'm not by any means saying Jamil or ANYONE makes bad beer, or that people's methods are wrong. Simply that different procedures yield different beers and it's up to the drinker to decide if that difference results in a better or worse beer. I, for instance, like esters a LOT, even in beers that have esters listed as "undesirable". My wife hates esters even in a style-perfect hefe.

Not quite sure where you are going with all that. The guy has demonstrated a pretty clear grasp on how to brew beer in general, not just to specific style guidelines. Either way, I agree..when it comes to your decision to secondary or not, what anyone else does can be a point of reference but it's never a commandment that beer has to be brewed that way.

Course, having an impressive list of credentials, awards and experience behind your name should count for something.

 

[jdoiv]

I will leave a beer in primary for 2-3 weeks then it's off to a keg or bottle. I'll let my kegs and bottles sit for a good 2-4 weeks or sometimes longer. I never secondary. I tend to view my primaries as if I am a microbrew. Time is money. I do think that leaving the beer on the yeast cleans some things up, but I think the benefit is on a curve. The longer it's in there, the less it will actually do. I'm not entering tons of comps and trying to win medals, I'm just trying to make good beer to drink.

I think one difference between what homebrewers do and the commercials is that most of them either filter or centrifuge at some point in the process. This is how they can effectively skip a long secondary. So if clarity is a big must for you, secondary away. For me, 10-14 days for ales and into a keg works just fine and my beer is clear enough for me. As I said earlier, it'll be in that keg for close to a month before I get around to tapping it anyway.

YMMV

 

[delboy]

I do think that leaving the beer on the yeast cleans some things up, but I think the benefit is on a curve.
YMMV

Thats a very good point, i'd agree with that thinking.

 

[Bobby_M]

Those judges measure conformance to a specifc style of beer. It's vital for people interested in competing but for someone who is interested in making good, drinkable beer styles exist only as flavour guidelines, not as absolute traits that make a beer "good".

I agree that not everyone is brewing for competition. The fact however is that there's no way you're going to even get to the second round of the nationals if your beer has an off taste such as those contributed by autolysis.

Also, for those of you that transfer to secondary and crash cool, I recently did the same exact thing on a slightly extended primary and it cleared up just as quickly - 2 days at 38F. We've postulated on what exactly about racking causes particulates to fall out and I'm satisfied with the guess that minor disturbances in the wort is the cause. I suppose you can get the same effect by agitating the primary just before you crash cool it. It couldn't introduce anymore oxygen than racking in anycase.

If I can get my hands on some 1-gallon jugs, I'm going to do some experimenting and then have my homebrew club do a blind A/B comparison.

 

[teu1003]

[Also, my trub straining talents suck. Most of what's in the brew pot ends up in my primary bucket. No off flavor problems so far with short primaries, but who knows what I'll find after five weeks on the muck:fro:[/QUOTE]

this is why i only put clean wort into the primary. straining is "straining" ... let the trub settle out and rack it off ... it only takes an hour to settle. its your BEER!!!

its not complicated or too much trouble ... why go thru the process and pitch on wort with 2 inches of brew crap on the bottom?

 

[El_Borracho]

Depending on the type of beer you are brewing is the time spent in primary/secondary different?

I mean I don't know much about the differences in beer - the difference between a dark lager and a stout - to me it's all 'dark beer' (im sorry if I offended anyone, i'm learning..i didn't know i was a connoisseur until i registered. )

I was planning on starting with a Hefe, but I don't want to **** it up. So I'll be going with a nice Wheat, maybe a Cherry since the wife asked for it. Not sure really I like all sorts of beer.. Looking for the one that will be the best for a noob to pull off proper.. Anyway.. So how long do I let em sit? Does clarity matter?

 

[BierMuncher]

Depending on the type of beer you are brewing is the time spent in primary/secondary different?

I mean I don't know much about the differences in beer - the difference between a dark lager and a stout - to me it's all 'dark beer' (im sorry if I offended anyone, i'm learning..i didn't know i was a connoisseur until i registered. )

I was planning on starting with a Hefe, but I don't want to **** it up. So I'll be going with a nice Wheat, maybe a Cherry since the wife asked for it. Not sure really I like all sorts of beer.. Looking for the one that will be the best for a noob to pull off proper.. Anyway.. So how long do I let em sit? Does clarity matter?

A simple wheat is a good choice to get started.

The more you brew, the more you’ll learn that there is no one good answer. Bobby and I have differing views on secondaries, but I’m sure his brew is great and would be willing to swap beer with him anytime.

Most people will agree that a wheat beer (fruit flavored or not) will not need to go to a secondary. Secondaries purpose is as a clearing, or bright tank, for helping to clear the beer up. You want a hazy wheat so that can be skipped.

I’d say that any wheat recipe can go a full three weeks in the primary and then into bottles. Use you hydrometer to make sure your fermentation is complete. If you’re in a bigger hurry…wait for the hydrometer readings to stop moving…add 48 hours and then rack to bottles.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm actually not comitted to using or not using secondaries. My posts on the topics have been kind of a way of working it out in my mind. I have used secondary more times than not and I'm not quite ready to stop for every batch. I'm probably going to resort to an experiment before I make a long term stance.

 

[teu1003]

Ok ... one final comment on this topic and I'll shut up.

If you believe that the sole purpose of yeast it to bring your wort from OG to FG, by all means rack it to secondary as soon as that occurs. I guess you could also use any kind of yeast you want since they will all do this for you.

I think that yeast has MANY more functions than just eating sugar and making alcohol. It can only accomplish these other things by leaving the beer on it for a while.

This is what I meant by saying 1-2-3 is old tech ... its what beginners are taught because its easy to follow, will yield drinkable beer and will keep them in the hobby.

For me, I'm committed to brewing and always am looking beyond what Charlie Papazian wrote years and years ago. Things evolve.

 

[Reverend JC]

Since i started kegging i was able to build up a nice supply of brew with half the work at bottling time. This has done a few positive things for me:

1. The wife has no bottle evidence to show how many brews consumed(less nagging)

2. I have more beer around so i can let the beer sit in the primary longer as i am in no hurry to drink it

3. Beer sits longer, ages longer, tastes better.

I suppose to answer the original question, mine sits in the primary now around 3 to 4 weeks.

 

[grichar2]

2 months during Katrina. Evacuated for the storm mid way through primary fermentation and had no choice but to let it do it's thing while the hurricane did its thing. Came out interesting to say the least

 

[coyote]

"interesting" in what way, grichar2?