So disappointed

[kenpotf]

I was creating an imperial ipa today, and my estimated og was 1.084 according to beersmith. I measured 1.046 with my refractometer. I don't know what happened. I plugged these numbers into beersmith, and it's showing an efficiency of 39%....wth?!

Where do I need to start looking? Here was my process:

About 17lbs of grain
Heat water to 162 degrees
Put 17lbs of grain and 162 degree water in mash tun
Let it sit for hour while getting sparge water heated
Drained first running.
Added sparge - stirred and let sit for another 10 minutes.
Drained second runnings
Measured with refractometer
Disappointment ensues - 12.5 brix (1.049)

What did I do wrong? It has to be something....

 

[sfgoat]

Did you calibrate your refractometer with distilled water?
Also if you added top up water post boil it can really screw your readings.

And I know it might be offensive to ask but did you crush your grain first?

 

[passedpawn]

Are you sure wort was homogeneous (mixed) when you measured?
Temps? Check your thermometer.

 

[sfgoat]

Also are these post boil readings or pre- boil?

 

[kenpotf]

These were post boil readings. I had the lhbs crush the grain through their mill, and I watched them do it.

The only thing that I didn't do was mix the wort from the second into the first runnings, but I mixed it while it was starting to heat up on the burner and I did a reading from that as well. The temps were around 150 after draining from the mlt...

 

[kenpotf]

I noticed in beersmith for this particular recipe it wanted me to batch sparge in 4 steps...would that hurt my efficiency if I didn't do that?

 

[BigFloyd]

How many gallons/quarts was your 162*F strike water? At what temp was the grain when you added it?

How long did you stir? What was the mash temp after stirring? How accurate is your thermometer?

If you went ahead and boiled this, hopefully you adjusted (decreased) your hop additions accordingly.

 

[temple240]

I noticed in beersmith for this particular recipe it wanted me to batch sparge in 4 steps...would that hurt my efficiency if I didn't do that?

That isn't a recommendation, it's just the result of the current mash profile you have setup.

 

[kenpotf]

My mash temp was at 151 after adding 162 degree strike water. I let it sit for an hour and then drained back into the boil kettle. I then added 3.5 gallons if sparge water at 168 degrees and I didn't take another temp after that. I also didn't time how long I stirred, but it was probably for a good minute I would assume.


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[cjgenever]

Those numbers seem almost impossible to me. Either your thermometer is way off resulting in a botched mash or you're doing something wrong while measuring your gravity.

What type of thermometer are you using? A probe type kitchen thermometer that has a connecting wire (like the ones you can put in the oven) can't get wet at the probe to wire junction. The water gets into the probe and throws off the probe resistance resulting in bad readings.

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[kenpotf]

I'm using a thermoworks pen type thermometer. It very well could be my refractometer. I haven't calibrated it in two years, but I didn't have distilled water to recalibrate. I'm cooling the wort now and will do another reading.


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[sfgoat]

my vote is on poorly calibrated refractometer. Because if you did everything else the way you say then you should be hitting at least 1.080. Only other thing could be a crappy crush from the lhbs. I never got good crushes from mine which is why I bought my own mill.

 

[nvious23]

The temperature of the wort when reading will throw it off also.

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[kenpotf]

I'm thinking about buying my own. Does this make sense? My preboil was 1.049 but in the fermenter is 1.057.


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[sfgoat]

I'm thinking about buying my own. Does this make sense? My preboil was 1.049 but in the fermenter is 1.057.


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What does your refractometer read with just regular tap water?

 

[tektonjp]

I'm thinking about buying my own. Does this make sense? My preboil was 1.049 but in the fermenter is 1.057.


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This part at least makes sense. When you boil down, the sugar will concentrate.

 

[kenpotf]

What does your refractometer read with just regular tap water?

It read 0. That's how I tried to recalibrate it this afternoon since I didn't have distilled.


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[kenpotf]

Should I ask for a double crush next time when buying from the lhbs? Is there a better place online like Midwest or northern brewer that guarantees a good crush? I'd be ok with buying that stuff online if I could find a good source.


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[Doctor_M]

My advice is suck it up and buy a quality grain mill. It will pay for itself eventually once you've bought enough bulk grain. There are so many positives to owning a grain mill it's a no brainer imo from saving money on bulk grain to increased efficiency, not to mention being able to use super fresh milled grain and independence from feeling the need to immediately use crushed grain since you crack it when you want.

 

[killian]

calibrate the thermometer, check temp at boil, put some ice water in the fridge then check that for your freezing temp

 

[sfgoat]

I would ask for a double crush from any lhbs. They usually set their mills at their perceived optimal gap and I've never gotten good efficiency from a single crush done at the lhbs. a mill is definitely worth the investment. Do you have a regular hydrometer you could use to be sure.

I would bring it to a boil again and add some DME to get it to gravity if your readings are accurate then you are gonna have one malty beer.

 

[kenpotf]

... if your readings are accurate then you are gonna have one malty beer.

That's one thing I'm afraid of....it's already in the fermenter though. I'll ask for a double crush next time. I'm not sure I want to mess with storing grain bags which is one reason why I haven't bought the mill yet.

 

[sfgoat]

As long as you haven't pitched yeast yet you can bring it back to a boil and boil some dme for 15-20 minutes to at least hit your target. Still might be off to the taste though. But if that reading is accurate it means your mash temp was way high so I'd double check the calibration.

 

[kenpotf]

As long as you haven't pitched yeast yet you can bring it back to a boil and boil some dme for 15-20 minutes to at least hit your target. Still might be off to the taste though. But if that reading is accurate it means your mash temp was way high so I'd double check the calibration.

I also had too much volume to put in the fermenter. I was supposed to get a 5 gallon batch, but somehow came out with about 6.25 gallons. I think that has something to do with the gravity as well....Maybe I used too much water even though Beersmith listed out 8.25 gallons of total (mash + sparge) water.

I think I have to fix my profile for equipment, but I'm having a very hard time with it. There are some options that I'm not understanding, but I think it may have something to do with the outcome aside from a possible poor crush...

 

[Doctor_M]

I also had too much volume to put in the fermenter. I was supposed to get a 5 gallon batch, but somehow came out with about 6.25 gallons. I think that has something to do with the gravity as well....Maybe I used too much water even though Beersmith listed out 8.25 gallons of total (mash + sparge) water.

I think I have to fix my profile for equipment, but I'm having a very hard time with it. There are some options that I'm not understanding, but I think it may have something to do with the outcome aside from a possible poor crush...

That would of been good to know in your first post. That has A LOT to do with your low fg.

 

[cjgenever]

Even a poor crush would give better efficiency than that.

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[cjgenever]

Is your refractometer atc?

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[sfgoat]

I also had too much volume to put in the fermenter. I was supposed to get a 5 gallon batch, but somehow came out with about 6.25 gallons. I think that has something to do with the gravity as well....Maybe I used too much water even though Beersmith listed out 8.25 gallons of total (mash + sparge) water.

I think I have to fix my profile for equipment, but I'm having a very hard time with it. There are some options that I'm not understanding, but I think it may have something to do with the outcome aside from a possible poor crush...

Yeah that is likely the culprit. Math says if you boil it down to 5 gallons you would get an sg of about 1.070.

 

[kenpotf]

That would of been good to know in your first post. That has A LOT to do with your low fg.

I didn't know about it when I first posted...I was just starting my boil. I didn't find this out until I put the wort in the fermenter and went well above my 5 gallon mark. I had to throw some out due to no headspace left in the bucket.

 

[Doctor_M]

I didn't know about it when I first posted...I was just starting my boil. I didn't find this out until I put the wort in the fermenter and went well above my 5 gallon mark. I had to throw some out due to no headspace left in the bucket.

Gotcha..... I guess it just goes to show that I take my sight glass on my kettle and hlt for granted.

 

[BigPerm]

As long as you haven't pitched yeast yet you can bring it back to a boil and boil some dme for 15-20 minutes to at least hit your target. Still might be off to the taste though. But if that reading is accurate it means your mash temp was way high so I'd double check the calibration.

I'd be more concerned about your thermometer calibration than your refractometer. 151 is a little high but not out of the ballpark for a DIPA. At any rate, assuming full conversion (1 hour in the 150s will do that), the mash temp wont give you a lower specific gravity post-fermentation (assuming you got full saccharification, if you mash too high, for example, you'll get a higher FG, but that isnt the issue here). To get that low of a gravity, your thermometer would have to be way off, ( > 10 degrees) in either direction. You won't get saccharification if the temp is higher than ~160F, and it will be very slow less that ~142F. I would guess that this, coupled with your higher volume may be the issue here. Did you do an iodine test to check for starch conversion? Was the wort cloudy?

You mentioned stirring as a factor. Are you batch sparging? in my experience, the most important step is to get the most liquid that you can out of the first runnings (particularly for high gravity beers), then add your sparge water and stir well to get the most out of the second runnings. I let my first sparge sit for at least 10 minutes to let some of the sugar leash out of the grain.

 

[kenpotf]

This has something to do with my equipment profile in Beersmith. I've been playing around with numbers tonight and I simply can't get this thing to work. I'm about to give up on it.

My original recipe called for 21.11 quarts of water and mash in at 162. The sparge water was 3.5 gallons and to do it in 4 steps for whatever reason.

I used 5.5 gallons for the strike water and then 3.5 for sparge. That's 9 gallons of water and BS is showing 8.72 total gallons needed. It's showing my boil volume should have been 6.52 gallons, but I'm pretty sure I was around 7.5 gallons. I'm trying to figure out why BS is saying that total water is almost 9 gallons, but my boil volume is supposed to be around 6.5? Where is the other 1.5 gallons going? Is the boil volume your preboil?

There are a few options that I can't wrap my head around:

Tun deadspace - how do you measure this? I have a braid setup with a 10 gallon cooler
Boil off - How is this calculated?
Cooling shrinkage - same as boil off....

I'm getting some random calculations when I try to change some of this stuff....

 

[kenpotf]

I'd be more concerned about your thermometer calibration than your refractometer. 151 is a little high but not out of the ballpark for a DIPA. At any rate, assuming full conversion (1 hour in the 150s will do that), the mash temp wont give you a lower specific gravity post-fermentation (assuming you got full saccharification, if you mash too high, for example, you'll get a higher FG, but that isnt the issue here). To get that low of a gravity, your thermometer would have to be way off, ( > 10 degrees) in either direction. You won't get saccharification if the temp is higher than ~160F, and it will be very slow less that ~142F. I would guess that this, coupled with your higher volume may be the issue here. Did you do an iodine test to check for starch conversion? Was the wort cloudy?

You mentioned stirring as a factor. Are you batch sparging? in my experience, the most important step is to get the most liquid that you can out of the first runnings (particularly for high gravity beers), then add your sparge water and stir well to get the most out of the second runnings. I let my first sparge sit for at least 10 minutes to let some of the sugar leash out of the grain.

I am batch sparging, and the wort was not cloudy at all. I have this thermometer:

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/low_cost/rt600b.html

I'm not sure I can calibrate it, but if I can, how do I do it?

 

[cjgenever]

Dead space is minimal with your setup. The extra water is held up in the spent grain... it goes in dry and comes out wet

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[BigPerm]

You'll stick your thermometer in a boiling water bath, and be sure it reads 212F. Then, you'll stick it in an ice water bath and be sure it reads 32F (it might be a couple of degrees higher, but be in the ballpark. That way you'll know if its reading properly. If its off, you'll simply adjust your temperature by that factor.

 

[cjgenever]

If you collected 6.25 gal@ 1.046 that's 5 [email protected]... still pretty low

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[cjgenever]

I didn't know about it when I first posted...I was just starting my boil. I didn't find this out until I put the wort in the fermenter and went well above my 5 gallon mark. I had to throw some out due to no headspace left in the bucket.

It's a iipa. I would have dumped it back in the kettle rather than dump wort. Just add more late hops when boiled down.


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[cjgenever]

I am batch sparging, and the wort was not cloudy at all. I have this thermometer:

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/low_cost/rt600b.html

I'm not sure I can calibrate it, but if I can, how do I do it?

Can't calibrate most cheap thermometers. (That's why I went with cdn, because with those you can). The best you can do is check them at freezing and boiling. Note the readings and adjust future readings accordingly. Don't forget atmospheric pressure when checking boiling temp

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[cjgenever]

Is your refractometer atc?

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?

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[MindenMan]

I too have tried Beer Smith, the free version, and I got confused too. I kept trying out different free brewing software packages. Even though I have QBrew, Brewtarget, and Brew Mate, Brew mate is my favorite. There are pages for brew notes, 8 different calculators, ie. gravity calculator, boil off, etc., and IMHO, it isn't as confusing to use.