Smokey bars

[emjay]

The argument that if someone doesnt like working there they can quit is a non-starter for me. I am not prepared to get into why, thats a whole new soap box to stand on, but I will say that decent and intelligent people sometimes have flawed logic.

This.

Anybody who makes this claim clearly has an absolute lack of perspective. It's actually such an absurd notion that it borders on delusional. It just screams belief bias, and must require an astonishing lack of empathy to seriously assert it.

 

[rycov]

on the other hand, if you started working there when it was a smoking bar, why would you expect it to change because you don't smoke? i don't like the reek of cologne coming from abercrombie, so i don't work there. i couldn't start working there and then expect them to quit spraying cologne everywhere.

don't get me wrong, i think people have the right to a healthy work environment, but i also think that if smokers want a place (and a bar owner wants to give it to them) that they can smoke inside and drink i think that should be their deal.

on the other, other hand (i can have as many as i want, they're hypothetical) i'm still glad that its becoming illegal because i recently quit, and the less people i see smoking the less i want a cigarette.

i can see both sides, its just hard to say cut and dry whats the best way to go about it.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Well I do think it is different in that part of abercrombie's business is selling the fragrance product. If you had arthritic hands, perhaps court stenographer is a poor job choice, for example. I'd agree that you wouldnt work at Nat Sherman's if you hated cigarette smoke (though their vent systems there are amazing), and I agree that if you wanted to open a bar or lounge (ie a cigar bar) for and run by smokers you should be able to get a special permit... but should one of the prereqs for making a living at any old bar or restaurant be the constant threat of illness?

 

[rycov]

nice. i like the permit idea. then everyone could get what they wanted. i'm definitely not all about catering to smokers, its not anyone elses problem if you want to fill your lunges with poison. but i do like having freedoms. allowing for a permit should satisfy most people (can't satisfy everyone). what is Nat Shermans? (i'm from a hic town in SC )

 

[Airborneguy]

That's how it is here. Private clubs and cigar bars can get permits to allow smoking. There's conditions such as proper ventilation on qualifying for the exemption.

 

[emjay]

Depends how the permit works. I mean, every place that sells alcohol already needs a license/permit, so what's stopping them all from getting a smoking one too, in effect just reversing the smoking ban?

I suppose you could limit the amount of permits issued, but that would be incredibly unfair.

Maybe make it *EXTRMELY* expensive? That would introduce a bit of balance. Much of the costs would be passed on to the customers (ie smokers), which would really just make it another sin tax.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Its a specialty tobacco shop. When I was 22 it is a lot of fun to go there and act like a cultured cigar smoker and solve the world's problems with likeminded... actually... it was a lot like hanging out here ;-). Seriously, 50 people smoking and no cloud of smoke.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Also for the record my "permits" idea is more "the way things should be" than "the way things can be practically speaking". The latter often trumps the former.

 

[Homercidal]

Smoke shops are allowed in MI. Not just a place that sells cigars, etc. It has to have a fully closed off area designated for smoking. Not sure if there is a permit required.

So a bar might be able to have a smoking section, but it would need to be separate from the bar area completely and designated to be a smoking room (club).

Since I don't smoke and don't care, I didn't bother to read the fine print, but it's out there for review.

 

[davefleck]

We (as in society, government, regulatory agencies) have an obligation to maintain reasonably save working conditions. Can't build with asbestos etc. We regulate industrial usage of harmful chemicals and require employers provide proper protection.

Tobacco is a known carcinogen.

 

[rycov]

We (as in society, government, regulatory agencies) have an obligation to maintain reasonably save working conditions. Can't build with asbestos etc. We regulate industrial usage of harmful chemicals and require employers provide proper protection.

Tobacco is a known carcinogen.

so all smoking should be illegal?

 

[emjay]

so all smoking should be illegal?

In the workplace.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Smokey bars suck. Nuff said.

 

[billtzk]

You don't need a government-mandated smoking ban to eliminate smoking in bars. All you need is a bar owner who decides not to allow it.

Coercion suks. Choice rulz. Nuff said.

 

[emjay]

You don't need a government-mandated smoking ban to eliminate smoking in bars.

Actually, history disagrees with you. There were *no* non-smoking bars around here until the laws were passed.

 

[statseeker]

Alright, I will go with the crowd that likes the smoking bans, somewhat. I dont think that smoking should be banned in all public places as the streets are public, the sidewalks are public, the parks are public. All public spaces should have no restriction on smoking. Smokers are part of the public. Like it or not.

That said, I think it's insane to draft a law against establishments like cigar bars and hookah lounges (they've done so in a couple of states). Places designed to be for smoking tobacco products should have no laws against them. Employees that would work there know what they are getting into. Patrons know what they are for.

So, tobacco bans are an on-the-fence issue for me.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Hopefully my former comments show that I'm in the statseeker camp on this. Anyone who meets me for about 20 minutes knows my obvious political leanings, they are hard for me to hide, so I am really NOT at all fond of the "I'm an 80 something in Peoria and what these kids in New York are doing is a disgrace and is immoral and they should make a law" mentality. So I am pretty shocked to hear myself agreeing with the ban.

 

[emjay]

Hopefully my former comments show that I'm in the statseeker camp on this. Anyone who meets me for about 20 minutes knows my obvious political leanings, they are hard for me to hide, so I am really NOT at all fond of the "I'm an 80 something in Peoria and what these kids in New York are doing is a disgrace and is immoral and they should make a law" mentality. So I am pretty shocked to hear myself agreeing with the ban.

Same here. It's not an issue of choice/liberty/personal responsibility for.

Heck, I think people should be able to shoot up heroin if they want to... in private. I am dead against the prohibition of any drug (not just alcohol or weed), turning drug users into criminals and filling the prisons with them. Never had a hooker, but I also strongly feel that prostitution should be legal.

And yet, I fully support banning smoking in bars and restaurants.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Oh, I do however think you do NOT have the liberty to talk about your golf game in an elevator with 1 or more uniterested parties present. If you do so, you should be levied a fine payable to the people who were held hostage while you prattled on. Im only 1/4 kidding on this one.

 

[Pappers_]

Oh, I do however think you do NOT have the liberty to talk about your golf game in an elevator with 1 or more uniterested parties present. If you do so, you should be levied a fine payable to the people who were held hostage while you prattled on. Im only 1/4 kidding on this one.

Ha! But I'm sure you'd be interested in hearing how I use my five wood whenever possible, and how I nearly had a hole-in-one, and that incredible 20 foot putt

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Papper's, that'll be $50 please. ;-)

 

[billtzk]

Actually, history disagrees with you. There were *no* non-smoking bars around here until the laws were passed.

History means nothing in a case like this. At least, not the way you imagine. A large percentage of the population used to be smokers. An even greater percentage of bar patrons were smokers too. If a bar wanted to make money, it needed to accommodate smokers. Not that there was much of a reason for a bar owner to even frame the question in his mind, since smoking was not socially frowned upon. There was virtually no demand for non-smoking establishments.

That started to change some 20 to 30 years ago as the awareness of the dangers of smoking, public advocacy against it, and public sentiment opposing second hand smoke began to grow. Today, there are enough people, including owners of bars and restaurants, who prefer eating and drinking in a smoke-free environment that many of them would require no ban to aid their decision to be smoke-free.

You don't need smoking bans. Given that non-smokers now outnumber smokers by a wide margin, simple market dynamics would serve to satisfy either preference. Or do you think that a bar or restaurant will risk alienating the non-smoking majority of its clientele by allowing indiscriminate smoking throughout its establishment?

If history tells us anything, it is that a business establishment will cater to the wishes of its clientele because that tends to increase its revenue and profits.

 

[toxick]

Smells like Freedom.

 

[cl330b]

Chewing tobacco tastes better anyway....

 

[carltjones]

Yup. Dip always goes better with a cold one. Mmm... wintergreen ale.

 

[onthekeg]

In the workplace.

What if I have my own business and my employees smoke? I don't discriminate, but I only hire smokers as well. I just can't trust anyone that won't have a smoke and a beer with me.

On another note, people blame any expense of healthcare on smoking, but I know lots of people that haven't smoked and have huge hospital bills, and guess what? They still died. Hmm, its nice in a perfect world to think no one will die or have any disease if we just put down the cigarette, but apparently the government hasn't banned disease yet. Then they can fine us when we have something.

 

[diablodawg]

Has anyone ever heard a bar employee complain about smoking? Me neither... must have forgotten how with their rediculous tips. Or, they just accept it as part of the job, just as how cops and military accept possible acute lead poisoning as part of theirs.

The issue is elimination of free choice in a free market by the government for an activity that is not inherently malicious and has easy solutions. What's next?

Even worse, is the clumsy and incompetant manner in which they are enacted- in my home state (WA) the smoking ban was enacted with no provisions for cigar or hookah bars. Thus, some irritated and misguided people basically shut down peoples' businesses for their own convenience, even though they would never patronize those places in the first place.

 

[cl330b]

Even worse, is the clumsy and incompetant manner in which they are enacted- in my home state (WA) the smoking ban was enacted with no provisions for cigar or hookah bars. Thus, some irritated and misguided people basically shut down peoples' businesses for their own convenience, even though they would never patronize those places in the first place.[/QUOTE]

That's F'd up.