SMaSH Advice MO & Argentinian Cascade

[Revvy]

3) Do neither the toast or the caramelization, and roll with a hoppy Bitter.

All three sound delicious. How much MO you got, Revvy? Feel like doing a few half batches?

I think right now I'm just gonna do the one.....My pipeline about to get top loaded over the holidays. AND I plan on brewing at least twice over the 15 days I'm off...maybe more.

I may try a toasting/carmalization/AC second batch then, but right now I wont toast, lower the ibus and shoot for a malty body...It'll be good, I hope.

What do you guys think of the yeast (I have other stuff, including a ton of US-05, but I thought O4 would kick ass AND I will have a yeastcake to pitch on on Sunday.)

 

[hammacks]

Here is the amber spoke of

4.60 lb Amber Liquid Extract (12.5 SRM) Extract 53.5 %
2.00 lb Amber Liquid Extract (12.5 SRM) Extract 23.3 %
1.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 11.6 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.8 %
0.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.8 %
1.00 oz Argentine Cascades [3.25%] (60 min) Hops 14.5 IBU
1.50 oz Argentine Cascades [3.25%] (30 min) Hops 11.1 IBU
0.50 oz Argentine Cascades [3.25%] (5 min) Hops 1.2 IBU

1.058 and 26.8 IBUs

Now I know that doesn't sound bitter but up until it was about 6 months in the bottle, it was unbalanced, nothing to go with the sharp bitterness. Now, I guess it was the extract but it is pretty thin. I have been wanting to try this again (AG).

It is pretty good now but still leaves me looking for some more malt profile.

Edit: The more I think about it that beer was in no way 26 IBUs..I don't know if the hops had higher AA than reported (although they couldn't be that high)....I don't know

 

[Saccharomyces]

Maris Otter and S-04 are a perfect pairing IMO.

 

[mmb]

Well, when I SMaSHed Vanguard the first time around, I used US-05 and fermented at 65* so that I could see what the Vanguard tasted like.

That being said, S-04 has to be one of my very favorite yeasts.

 

[Revvy]

Hey gang, will someone run this recipe through their Beersmith for me? I think I have some setting wrong, becasue when I run

2.5 gallon batch

6 pounds British Pale (MO)

1.5 ounces of 3.2 Argentinian cascade @ 60
1.0 ounces of 3.2 Argentinian cascade @ 20
0.5 ounces of 3.2 Argentinian cascade @ 5

My beersmith is saying 20.4 IBU's???

I have a feeling that beercalculus uses a different default scale for IBU's then my beersmith does...OR I've set up the parameters for Argentinian Cascade wrong in my beersmith (IIRC I had to add the hop way back when)

HELP!!!!

I'm not brewing this til tomorrow, and I have plenty of AC's if I need to bump up the recipe's hops...But I am heading out for the MO now.

But something clearly ain't right here, and I'm betting Operator Error on Beersmith.

 

[Revvy]

Robbiex0r in chat ran it and got the same thing...WHich confirms that Beercalc runs the numbers different....So


I'm going with this for a modest 31.8 Ibu's

2.00 oz Argentine Cascade [3.20 %] (60 min) Hops
1.75 oz Argentine Cascade [3.20 %] (30 min) Hops
0.50 oz Argentine Cascade [3.20 %] (5 min) Hops

 

[Revvy]

I did the MO/Argentinian Cascade SMaSH last weekend...

I was supposed to go to a group brew that day.

But, in the Morning, while sitting on the floor grinding my grain I blew out by back....After it happened and as I was trying to stand I upended the grain onto the garbage bag I had laid out....

Then the battery died on my drill so I had to finish up by hand. Not particularly easy when you are knotted like a pretzel.

I ended up just laying on the floor for about 45 minutes. Before trying to get up again. Then ended up sitting at the computer desk just trying to get it to normalize.

Before I could leave for the brew, I needed to bottle the beer I was going to pitch my new beer onto the US04 cake onto. I also had to spritz with rum and then wrap the 47 banana breads I baked on Sat. in plastic wrap.

By the time I was even able to get up to start that it was like 1:30 and I called Jim, the guy hosting the brew and begged off.

Trouble is didn't want to waste the grain, and could see getting another chance til the weekend of more likely after Christmas, I decided to brew anyway.

AND do everything else on the two do list...

Since it was going to be a 2.5 gallon batch I just decided to do it on my stove...I managed to get everything done, bottling, wrapping bread, and brewing even though I was in extreme agony...

Even lifting 4 gallons of my brew pot was not fun...and I couldn't even put the 3 gallon better bottle in my "swamp cooler", but left in in the closet on one of the milk crates in there....Oh AND since IU was out of O2 I had to shake my Better Bottle to aerate it...Owie...

So the next morning I wake up and look at the beer and the airlock is full of krauzen, so I had to fall on the floor and hook up a blow off tube, which was too short to reach the bottle of sanitizer SO I ended up putting the BB on the floor, which was a struggle with my back...

Let's just say it was the WORST brewing experience I've ever had...

and it was still a heck of a lot of fun.

I have to admit, that AC's are the worst smelling hops I have ever used....Hopefully it will taste better than it smelled.

 

[FishinDave07]

Sounds good. This thread has inspired my next SMaSH to be split 3 ways:

1. Toasting grain
2. Boiling down volume to caramelize
3. Decoction

 

[Gonefishing]

Revvy, how's your back now?
I'm doing a SMaSH this weekend too. Just 2-row and Cascades.

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, how's your back now?
I'm doing a SMaSH this weekend too. Just 2-row and Cascades.

It's still noticeable...Meaning I can feel the stiffness/soreness...

I know I'm probably gonna end up being a candidate for surgery if I ever have a doctor look at it.

See, when I was 18 I blew a knee out...then 10 years later I did it again on the same knee...two surgeries on the same knee is not fun, especially when they say your patella is now razor thin.

And you know how they tell you to "lift with your knees and not your back?" Well having a bad knee I never trusted that my knee could take me heavy lifting.

And I was the guy who always helped his friends move or lift stuff. And usually too stuborn to wait for help, and do it all alone, and probably brutally...like rather than lift slowly I'd go "goddamit, bam lift" and carry. Just like, get it done, and pay for it later...

SO yeah it's catching up on me...

And being 6'6"+ I've also tended to stoop alot...so all those years of bad lifting, and stooping have caught up with me...

Thanks for asking.

 

[Gonefishing]

You're a tall one!

 

[Revvy]

Well, I bottled it last night. And I know that it is really green BUT I don't think the tastes I tasted last night is just green-ness...I think AC's may be really disappointing hops..

The first flavor I got is of intense "grassiness" for lack of a better word. There is also a strong pepperiness as well. But there is a smell and flavor the predominates all the others.

I couldn't get a handle on it at first, and it wasn't til I was is the shower this morning and thinking how unpleasant it turned out (also considering I bottled my cascade IPA last night as well, and that hydro sample was amazing.)

The smell/flavor that comes through the most, especially in the nose us a citrussy solvent taste & smell....NOT from bad or too high of fermentation temps, it was a beautiful fermentation in the low 60's so I can rule that out.

Like I said I didn't get it til this morning what it reminded me of....Citronella. You know the stuff you burn to chase the 'skeeters away?


Actually what it really reminds me of is Off Citronella Bug Spray, if you get some of it on your hands at a BBQ and you get some of it in your mouth.


Like I said I don't think it is from a bad fermentation, I thing it is the hops...if I focussed and tried to get beyond the hops I could actually pick up the really clean and bready characteristics of the Marris Otter. I'm glad I aimed for a balanced recipe and not leaned towards an IPA with it.

What it was like is getting some of the bugspray or citronella oil on your hands and then grabbing a donut, or piece of bread and getting the citronella on it and tasting both.

Hopefully carbonation and time will mellow out the hops so the MO will come through. But I don't know.

If not maybe I can peddle it as like a Jone's Soda "Picnic Flavored" pale ale....or maybe I can go into the high end men's cologne/ mosquito repellent business.

Think anyone would go for Beer and Citronella outdoor aftershave/Bug repellent?

 

[Decojuicer]

A couple of years ago, I brewed a Lemon Wheat beer. When I tapped it, it had a VERY strong licorice taste to it. The taste was so strong that the beer was actually undrinkable. I couldn't figure out what happened for the life of me. I stuck it in a corner of my garage, and promptly forgot all about it.

About a year later, I was cleaning out the garage and ran across this full keg that I had forgotten about. I didn't even know what was in it. I took it in the house and tapped it, and it turned out to be one of the best beers that I ever brewed. We had a party at our house that weekend for my son's 4th birthday, and my relatives drained that keg before they left.

My point to this long diatribe is, RDWHAHB. Some times weird flavors show up when the beer is really green, then go away and we never do understand what caused them. It might end up being the best beer that you've ever made.

 

[Revvy]

My point to this long diatribe is, RDWHAHB. Some times weird flavors show up when the beer is really green, then go away and we never do understand what caused them. It might end up being the best beer that you've ever made.

Yeah...I'm relaxed about it...I'm sort of the king of that around here...Remember the sixer of my crappy too high temp amber ale that we found in the bottom of your keezer and everybody raved about ?(Oh maybe not, I think you might have been passed out by them )

That's been the impetus of my don't dump the beer crusade on here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/



But like they say, if life gives you lemons, make lemonade, I'm already working on the Label for it...

I just gotta come up for the right marketing lingo to make something that tastes like bugspray sound "refrshing."

 

[Decojuicer]

Yeah...I'm relaxed about it...I'm sort of the king of that around here...Remember the sixer of my crappy too high temp amber ale that we found in the bottom of your keezer and everybody raved about ?(Oh maybe not, I think you might have been passed out by them )

I think that I remember something about that. Most of that night is a blur to me. I know that there were 2 left, and I took them up to a seminar that I went to in West Branch and enjoyed one of them while hanging out in my room. There is another still hanging out in my fridge that I was just eyeballing last night. I think that I'm going to drink it tonight.

I know your feelings on not dumping. My point was that beer is a funny thing. Those flavors probably won't even be there in a month or 2.

 

[mmb]

Dunno Revvy.

I've never heard anything good about Argentinian Cascades to make me want to try them and you're not doing them any favors.

 

[Revvy]

Dunno Revvy.

I've never heard anything good about Argentinian Cascades to make me want to try them and you're not doing them any favors.

Yeah, that was sort of the point of me doing it...if you search here or online you don't get a lot of people using them, and a lot of people (or you did when they hit the market) buying them and realizing they weren't cascade and asking about them..

So I thought I'd take a bullet for the team and see if I could come up with some definitive answers...

And you're right, it may not be promising...But we'll see...

When they're carbed and conditioned I'll taste them, and write something up, and maybe have decojuicer do the same...then stash a few aside and see if months are needed to tame them...or not.

 

[Chriso]

+1 from everything others have said, and now what you've said, and what I smelled in the bag that I used......

I think Arg. Cascades are the first hop that I'm going to put on my "ban" list. BANNED. Citronella isn't exactly what I'd call an appetizing flavor.

And this is coming from the "Guru of Weirdness" too. How often do you see a dude who will brew with mint tea, catnip, pecans, apple juice concentrate, yadda yadda anything that will ferment or flavor --- but he gets all miffed about a certain HOP?!?!?




Now if I could just come to a consensus on these dagnabbed Pac Gem's. One of these batches will come out non-infected. I swear.

(Maybe tonight I'll rip out the carpet in the brew room, and start dousing the walls in diluted bleach solution. If I don't brew soon, I'm worried BierMuncher might ride into town on his 'cycle, and give me a barley beat-down!)

 

[Revvy]

+1 from everything others have said, and now what you've said, and what I smelled in the bag that I used......

I think Arg. Cascades are the first hop that I'm going to put on my "ban" list. BANNED. Citronella isn't exactly what I'd call an appetizing flavor.

And this is coming from the "Guru of Weirdness" too. How often do you see a dude who will brew with mint tea, catnip, pecans, apple juice concentrate, yadda yadda anything that will ferment or flavor --- but he gets all miffed about a certain HOP?!?!?

Catnip would prolly taste better than this...

I'llstick a bottle of it in your care package as well, not as punishment or anything, but so you can make notes as well (just don't look at it as a reflection of the brewer...K?)....I'll make it up to you by sending one of my Oaked browns as well....

It'll probably be in Early February after I get out from under the post x-mas bills.

 

[Chriso]

Word, I'll give it the ol' college try.
(Oaked brown sounds downright delish!)

 

[Revvy]

Double freaking post...read below

 

[Revvy]

Update

I decided I want to get a handle on this beer through the conditioning process so I thought I'd jump the gun on my usual "wait three weeks" and start tasting at this point.

Week two in the bottle.

Surprisingly nice head and even lacing, yet very few bubbles yet in solution...not quite fully carbed, obviously but well on it's way...may be fully carbed by next week.

The color is a bright amber/orange. Slightly cloudy.

Aroma is a combination of a bright floral smell that rapidly degrade into a chemical smell...somewhat less than the bug spray at bottling, but still not what I call pleasant in any way...After awhile, as the beer sits in the galls, the medicinal smell degrades somewhat.

But there is still something artifical/chemical about it.

Mouthfeel....It is very effervescent (even at this stage of carbonation) like any ipa should be, with a hop bite that cuts the tongue like a razorblade, even though I was shooting for a balanced beer...If this were made with any other hop this would be a CLASSIC IPA BITE! Maybe this is the best feature of the beer so far.

Flavor.....Well....

I am 99% sure that I am NOT tasting a green beer, I've tasted enough of it to discern the difference....This is still not a pleasant beer to taste. It starts out sweet, but the taste goes south rapidly and turns into a lemon/medicinal/ cleaning solution flavor, with a bitter lemony aftertaste. It's almost soapy...like a cheap knockoff of lemon pledge....not the original Lemon Pledge, but the cheap generic knockoff from walmart.

If there is ANY breadiness under it from the Marris Otter, it is lost in the Argentinian cascades...The nastiness of the hops are just too overwhelming.

This is the beer that brewing dominatrices use to wash the mouths of bad brewers who drink beer too early....Right Yoop?

My only hope for this is that overtime, like with so many ipas, the hops dissipate a bit...

I'll update again next week for week three...and then again, who knows when, I'll taste it every couple weeks..hopefully it will become palatable....Or I will run out of the case of it I brewed.

So once again, this is not a commercial for the wonderful new hop on the market

I'm forced to wash my mouth out with a still green all cascade IPA...

The sacrifices I make in pursuit of beer knowledge.

 

[Ben25]

Well I recently got 6 oz of Argentine Cascade, so I decided to use them all in one test batch to see how it came out.

7.00 lb Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 77.78 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 11.11 %
0.50 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 5.56 %
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 5.56 %
1.00 oz Argentine Cascade [3.70 %] (60 min) Hops 13.0 IBU
1.00 oz Argentine Cascade [3.70 %] (60 min) Hops 13.0 IBU
1.00 oz Argentine Cascade [3.70 %] (60 min) Hops 13.0 IBU
1.00 oz Argentine Cascade [3.70 %] (5 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
1.00 oz Argentine Cascade [3.70 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Argentine Cascade (Dry hop) [3.70 %] (0 min) Hops -
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.000 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.000 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.78 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 41.5 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint


I'll update when I taste it!

 

[conpewter]

Was reading another thread referencing this one. Glad you only made 2.5 gallons! Any updates on tasting after it was fully carbed and aged?

 

[Crash]

I just kegged the following recipe (I know it's an extract in the all grain section) that I threw together using some extra extract I had lying around that included Argintina Cascade. After 3 1/2 weeks in primary it's surprisingly good -- a coppery, very light Sierra Nevada tasting ale with a nice 6.5% ABV. Great Spring/Summer brew.
Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Extract (Lbs): 8.00
Anticipated OG: 1.065 Plato: 16.01
Anticipated SRM: 5.7
Anticipated IBU: 18.8
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.47 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.056 SG 13.72 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Garetz

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
37.5 3.00 lbs. Briess DME- Gold America 1.046 8
37.5 3.00 lbs. Muntons DME - Light England 1.046 5
25.0 2.00 lbs. Honey 1.042 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Amarillo Gold Pellet 10.00 13.9 60 min.
0.50 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 4.4 30 min.
0.50 oz. Argentina Cascade Pellet 3.25 0.5 15 min.


Yeast
-----

Danstar Nottingham

 

[Revvy]

Was reading another thread referencing this one. Glad you only made 2.5 gallons! Any updates on tasting after it was fully carbed and aged?

I haven't tasted it in weeks, though there is some in the fridge...last time I had it it was still obnoxiously bitter and lemony...I mean I love IPA's but this was not fun for me to drink at all.

 

[Revvy]

Well I'll be damned.....

I just reached into the back of my fridge (where it's been in there at least 2 months) and grabbed what I believe is the last bottle of this beer...brewed 6 months ago....

First I have to say that it is crystal clear (prolly the clearest beer of mine I have ever poured) with absolutely NO yeast in the pour. I looked in the bottle and there is a very tight yeast cake in there, but none poured out of the bottle (I think 2 months in the fridge did that.)

It poured with a thumb sized dense and rocky head with nice lacing on the glass.

The smell is lemon/grapefruit, with only the barest hint of the citrenella bug spray I talked about before hand.....ther is also the barest hint of breadiness in the nose which I assume is from the MO.

Now the flavor up front is still insanely bitter (Conroe once told me that in his experience that the perceived bitterness of these bad boys is actually higher than it's IBU's, like by double.) But NOT as nastily as I had mentioned before....Behind that there is a surprising sweetness that comes through in the middle of the taste (Which must be the MO.)

But sadly it still ends with that nasty chemical flavor, a lot more muted the before...but still noticeable and unpleasant...In fact if that were gone, the beer, despite the front end bitterness, might still have been halfway decent and quaffable....sadly the lasting taste is that chemical lemon/grapefruit bite...

I wonder if this might have mellowed into a drinkable ale had I had one at a year old, when all the bitterness was muted with age? I dunno....

WOuld I do this again, perhaps with half the amount of hops? I'm not sure....with all the stellar hops back in the marketplace...this hop is no longer "necessary" as a replacement hop for all those that were gone during the shortage (anyone remember the hop shortage? It's sort of gone.)

I will say that an all Marris Otter IPA is on the horizon...or even a pale ale, with a hop that I actually enjoy.

The biggest "take home lesson" I can give you....if you can chill your beer down for 1-2 months after they are carbed and conditioned, you could pour a glass of your beer, hand it to a dedicated crystal clear BMC drinker....and they would swear it is a commercial filtered beer..

I swear to god I have never had a homebrew this perfectly clear and I have gotten reviews on the clarity of my HBs by Bjcp judges.....but this is amazing...commercial clear and without ANY chill haze!!!!

ANd there was no need to "pour to the shoulder" to leave the yeast behind...I upended the bottles....and NONE OF THE SEDIMENT MOVED.....

Ok...unless I discover a hidden bottle of MOAC....I have closed the books on my experimentation with Argentian Cascades.....

 

[mmb]

I swear to god I have never had a homebrew this perfectly clear and I have gotten reviews on the clarity of my HBs by Bjcp judges.....but this is amazing...commercial clear and without ANY chill haze!!!!

ANd there was no need to "pour to the shoulder" to leave the yeast behind...I upended the bottles....and NONE OF THE SEDIMENT MOVED.....

Behold, the power of S-04.

I've some year old oatmeal stouts have EXACTLY the same sediment cake. It really hardens up when aged.

 

[Poindexter]

Thanks for the update. I think I will run off a 2.5 gal batch of EdWort's Haus sometime this summer, use some of the AC pellets out of my freezer and give it a year in the cellar.

EDIT: I wonder if Argentinian brews in general feature a medicinal aftertaste. All the nationals I ever met were wine snobs.

 

[Revvy]

*bump*

So I just found a two year and 2 month old bottle of this waaaaaaaayyyyyyy in the back of my closet. And, wow. It is tasty. It is still massively bitter, both in taste and aroma, seriously it still tastes and smells of hops. As if it were a "typical
IPA I just brewed. That goes to show just how bitter is was initially, that it still has a strong hop presence 2 years later.

BUT all that lemon bug spray is gone. Now, instead I guess it could be said to be intensely grapefruity instead.

And even more surprisingly the Marris Otter still holds up and provide a nice breadiness.

It has a pleasant aroma as well, very clean and citrussy.

There is also a nice sweetness to it, as it warms up.

This reminds me of some douple IPAs I've had.

I really can't believe how "fruity" and aggressive the beer still is after all these years.

What a surprise.