single tier brew sculpture questions

[chainsawbrewing]

i'm really tired of lugging around, lifting hot water, heavy mash tuns full of grain up in the air, etc. and want to build myself some sort of brew sculpture.


at first i was thinking a three tier gravity fed system, but i don't like the idea of an HLT way up in the air, for safety reasons, and also don't like having to lift it up there, or fill it up on a ladder, etc. and the space/heighth issues suck too.

so then i got to thinking about a single tier system. a little about my brewing, i batch sparge, i only do 5gallon batches thus far, and i don't do any "fancy" stuff like step mashing, etc. and don't really plan to. i use a 10gallon cooler with a stainless steel braid in it and a ball valve for my mash tun, i have a 8 gallon stainless steel kettle for my brew kettle,no ports or valves on it, i just lift it up after it's cooled (using a small imersion chiller) and pour it into a funnel with a filter into my carboy, and i currently use a 5gallon cooler for my HLT. i also have a sanke keg that i've cut the top out of for down the road, but that's it so far.

first question, is it possible to have only one pump, with two inlets, and two outlets on it via a T and ball valves on it, so i can open and close each of the four lines, and use that one pump for moving water from the HLT to the mash tun, and also move the wort from the mash tun to the brew kettle? i've never seen it done that way. i've seen people use quick disconnects, and also just pull off one hose, and put on another, but not what i'm thinking. i'm thinking using one sanke keg for my brew kettle, my 10gallon cooler in the middle for my mash tun, and another sanke keg for my HLT.

also, if i ever wanted to do step mashing or anything, and i had another burner in the middle, and used another sanke keg instead of my cooler, can you direct fire a mash without recurculating, and using a stainless braid instead of a false bottom? like maybe heat up all your water in it first, then kill the heat, add the grains, and put a lid on it or something and maybe just baby the burner a bit to keep the temp up, or would it be useless, and/or scorch the grains?


i don't have a ton of money to spend on this, but i do brew a lot, like almost every other weekend, and would love to streamline my process, save my back, not scald myself to death, and not take up the entire garage with a three tier gravity system.

 

[Bobby_M]

i'm really tired of lugging around, lifting hot water, heavy mash tuns full of grain up in the air, etc. and want to build myself some sort of brew sculpture.
at first i was thinking a three tier gravity fed system, but i don't like the idea of an HLT way up in the air, for safety reasons, and also don't like having to lift it up there, or fill it up on a ladder, etc. and the space/heighth issues suck too.

The thing about HLTs is that you should never have to look inside, or climb up to fill, or any of that stuff. Granted, if you haul your water over to your brewing area in buckets, maybe you have a point. Assuming you have at least one pump in the system, you could dump the water in your BK and pump it up to your HLT.

so then i got to thinking about a single tier system. a little about my brewing, i batch sparge, i only do 5gallon batches thus far, and i don't do any "fancy" stuff like step mashing, etc. and don't really plan to. i use a 10gallon cooler with a stainless steel braid in it and a ball valve for my mash tun, i have a 8 gallon stainless steel kettle for my brew kettle,no ports or valves on it, i just lift it up after it's cooled (using a small imersion chiller) and pour it into a funnel with a filter into my carboy, and i currently use a 5gallon cooler for my HLT. i also have a sanke keg that i've cut the top out of for down the road, but that's it so far.

first question, is it possible to have only one pump, with two inlets, and two outlets on it via a T and ball valves on it, so i can open and close each of the four lines, and use that one pump for moving water from the HLT to the mash tun, and also move the wort from the mash tun to the brew kettle? i've never seen it done that way. i've seen people use quick disconnects, and also just pull off one hose, and put on another, but not what i'm thinking. i'm thinking using one sanke keg for my brew kettle, my 10gallon cooler in the middle for my mash tun, and another sanke keg for my HLT.

also, if i ever wanted to do step mashing or anything, and i had another burner in the middle, and used another sanke keg instead of my cooler, can you direct fire a mash without recurculating, and using a stainless braid instead of a false bottom? like maybe heat up all your water in it first, then kill the heat, add the grains, and put a lid on it or something and maybe just baby the burner a bit to keep the temp up, or would it be useless, and/or scorch the grains?


i don't have a ton of money to spend on this, but i do brew a lot, like almost every other weekend, and would love to streamline my process, save my back, not scald myself to death, and not take up the entire garage with a three tier gravity system.

What you can do easily is use your sanke as a hot liquor heater and boil kettle. If you do a two tier: BK low, MLT low, and put a another cooler up on the second tier for your HLT.

Heat strike water in the BK, pump over to MLT and mash. While mashing, heat sparge water in the BK and right before you're ready to sparge, pump it up to the HLT. Pump runnings from MLT to BK, gravity drain the sparge into the MLT, pump runnings to BK. If you want to eventually try fly sparging, you're already setup for it with a simple manifold or false bottom upgrade.

You can create a complex matrix of manifolds and valves to keep from using quick disconnects but you'll pay more for valves than the QDs cost. In my example above, you'll have pump inputs of BK and MLT and pump outputs of BK and HLT. I believe that's 5 valves. I have no idea what challenges you'd run into trying to prime the pump like that.

 

[chainsawbrewing]

The thing about HLTs is that you should never have to look inside, or climb up to fill, or any of that stuff. Granted, if you haul your water over to your brewing area in buckets, maybe you have a point. Assuming you have at least one pump in the system, you could dump the water in your BK and pump it up to your HLT.



What you can do easily is use your sanke as a hot liquor heater and boil kettle. If you do a two tier: BK low, MLT low, and put a another cooler up on the second tier for your HLT.

Heat strike water in the BK, pump over to MLT and mash. While mashing, heat sparge water in the BK and right before you're ready to sparge, pump it up to the HLT. Pump runnings from MLT to BK, gravity drain the sparge into the MLT, pump runnings to BK. If you want to eventually try fly sparging, you're already setup for it with a simple manifold or false bottom upgrade.

You can create a complex matrix of manifolds and valves to keep from using quick disconnects but you'll pay more for valves than the QDs cost. In my example above, you'll have pump inputs of BK and MLT and pump outputs of BK and HLT. I believe that's 5 valves. I have no idea what challenges you'd run into trying to prime the pump like that.

bobby i'm glad you were the one to chime in on this thread. i appreciate your input greatly. i understand your concept, and it makes great sense to me, and seems like the cheapest option, as i will only need one burner, and one sanke. having not ever dealt with a pump before, i do not understand the priming challenges you're talking about though. i thought that as long as the pump was positioned lower than the lowest brewing vessel, there wouldn't be any issues with priming.

also, instead of having two valves per vessel, couldn't i just have for example, using your build thoughts you already mentioned, have an outlet from my hot liquor heater/brew kettle, and that outlet has a hose that runs to the inlet of the pump, and then a hose coming out of the outlet of the pump, and instead of having that hose go to an inlet valve up on the upper tier HLT, just stick the end of the hose into the top of the cooler to fill it up? and likewise, instead of having an inlet in the brew kettle, just plug a hose into the outlet of the mash tun into the inlet of the pump, and then a hose in the outlet of the pump that i just stick into the top of the brew kettle and drain my wort into the top of it?


i don't want my set up to be "ghetto", but i don't need any extra bells and whistles just for the sake of having them when the cost outweighs the benefits.
thanks again.

 

[Bobby_M]

You're right, the pump output can easily have a clamped on hose (after one ball valve to throttle flow) that you just drape over the receiving vessel's top. For the input though, it makes a lot of sense to make the end of your hose have a female quick disconnect and have your BK and MLT have a male QD. It's cheap enough and plenty intuitive.

It would be great for someone with more "hard piped" systems to chime in since I've never tried it.

 

[chainsawbrewing]

so the pump alone i assume pumps way too fast, too many gpm, so you put on a ball valve and barely open it to restrict the flow it sounds like. i would also assume that the pump has a sort of clutch or something for backflow so that restricting the flow with a ball valve won't wear out the pump prematurley.

also, i know that it can create some off flavors if you slosh around your wort pre boil, does draping a hose, or having an inlet valve create "sloshing" one more than another i wonder?

also about the priming issues, am i correct that as long as the pump is lower than the bottom of the two vessels on the lower tier there shouldn't be any issues?

 

[Bobby_M]

March pumps are driven by a coupled set of magnets. If you stop the output completely, the impeller just sits still while the motor turns.

 

[Hawgbranch]

I have a similiar setup right now where my Keggle doubles as an HLT, at least for the Strike Water. I then use the smaller kettle for heating my Sparge Water. I just upgraded to a March Pump and Camlock fittings for all vessels and the CFC.

Bobby, I have watched your All Grain videos (1&2) and I have a couple of questions.

1. Is there a reason why you transfer your wort to the BK over the top and not through the valve as you do your Sparge Water? Just curious...

2. How long are your hoses?

3. Are you sucking wet grains out of your MLT with a Shopvac?

Thanks and good luck Chainsaw Brewing. We have similiar setups so I will keep up with how it goes.

 

[Bobby_M]

I transfer into the BK through the drain plenty, but I think I might have had my hop screen in place during that brew. It would probably clog it a bit. The pump input hose is about 3' long and the out is more like 4'. In the video I used the shop vac. It's a great clean in place solution if you strap it to a handtruck for hauling to your compost pile. I haven't used it since there's snow on the ground.

 

[KingKegII]

Chainsaw, I too have a setup as Bobby_M describes. I batch sparge 5 gallon batches. I built a simple wooden stand out of 2x4's and OSB plywood; took just a couple of hours to build. The HLT cooler sits in the middle and gravity drains to the MLT cooler w/ SS braid, you can see it here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/show-us-your-sculpture-brew-rig-46578/index59.html#post1719065

After missing my mash temps a few times I thought of adding a second burner, but now I plan to add a RIMS.

I use one pump, flexible hi-temp tubing and polysulfone QDs. I occasionally have pump priming problems but can get everything going with a minimal amount of fuss. They make ball valves with a bleeder so you can bleed off any air bubbles that may get into the system; I'm looking into getting one of these to replace the outlet valve on my pump. I have also added a T and another valve to the outlet of the pump so I don't have to unhook any tubing during my brew session.

 

[Hawgbranch]

I transfer into the BK through the drain plenty, but I think I might have had my hop screen in place during that brew. It would probably clog it a bit. The pump input hose is about 3' long and the out is more like 4'. In the video I used the shop vac. It's a great clean in place solution if you strap it to a handtruck for hauling to your compost pile. I haven't used it since there's snow on the ground.

Great idea with the Shopvac. I am gonna give that a try.
I asked about the hoses because I am about to cut mine to length. I believe I will set everything up and then cut, just to make sure.
I figured you had hop screen.
Do you whirlpool by chance? I bought enough hose to have a 3rd hose with no connection for whirlpooling.

 

[Bobby_M]

The pump doesn't seem to move enough volume to get a good whirlpool. Maybe I'm just lame.

 

[Hawgbranch]

That is a good point. The volume part, not the lame part. hehe
So how are all these folks whirlpooling? Just with a paddle?
May be fodder for a new thread.
Thanks bobby.

 

[Bobby_M]

There's a good chance that my quick disconnects are providing enough resistance to slow the flow down.

 

[eriktlupus]

i haven't used my current bk enough yet to know for sure but i have a piece of copper bent over to direct the outflow from the cfc into a whirlpool motion just not sure if it's working yet since i can cool my wort down to 55 in a single pass.

 

[Cape Brewing]

don't want to drive it too off topic (unless we're just talking about whirlpooling now) but I've got a hard-plumbed single teir with a 45 gal BK. My March 809 does just fine volume wise to get a decent whirlpool going. It's not a vortex that's going to suck a pirate ship down into it but if I just walk away and let it whirlpool a bit, I'll get a nice stack of hops dust, etc sitting in the middle of my bk.

It's simply 1/2 copper feeding the pot. Instead of QDs I'm using unions so I don't get any interference there... a bulkhead through the pot, a 90 degree elbow and then a length of about... I dunno... 8-10 inches of 1/2 copper that I curved so it hugs the side of the pot. I then crimped the end of the pipe slightly just to very slightly make it into a bit of a nozzel that will pump out a flatter pattern that also hugs the shape of the pot.

Seems to work pretty well.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think my issue is that I've got the return soldered to my IC so I can't remove the IC for the final cone stacking. I built it mostly for faster chilling. I'm going to try flattening the end of the tube to make it into a nozzle.

 

[Cape Brewing]

sounds likely... the way I have mine plumbed, I can click a solenoid and reroute through my plate chiller OR click another and route it straight through to the whirlpool so I'm going in a very short loop from the bottom of the pot, through the pump and right back in.

 

[Reelale]

It's simply 1/2 copper feeding the pot. Instead of QDs I'm using unions so I don't get any interference there... a bulkhead through the pot, a 90 degree elbow and then a length of about... I dunno... 8-10 inches of 1/2 copper that I curved so it hugs the side of the pot. I then crimped the end of the pipe slightly just to very slightly make it into a bit of a nozzel that will pump out a flatter pattern that also hugs the shape of the pot.

Seems to work pretty well.

I do the same thing. I think that crimping the end, as described, increases the pressure and I get a pretty good whirlpool going. Using a side pick-up, combined with the indentation at the bottom of a keggle makes for a pretty good cone of stuff not making it into the fermentor.

 

[chainsawbrewing]

ok so i was brainstorming last night, and have a couple new questions if anyone can help.

I APOLOGIZE FOR THE LONG POST, I'M NOT MEANING TO RAMBLE ON, IF ANYONE CAN TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT I THINK I ACTUALLY SPELLED EVERYTHING CORRECT, AND USED PROPER ENGLISH, SO IT SHOULDN'T BE TOO HARD OF A READ, LOL. THANK YOU!


first off, the quick disconnects people use. do they "shut off" the flow when they are disconnected, or do you still have to open/close a ball valve to start/stop flow, and the quick disconnects are there just for the ease of putting a hose onto a nipple, instead of just putting "raw" hose on and off of a hose barb?

second question is kind of hard for me to put into words properly, but the basis is this.- in a single tier set up, why would anyone ever need to spend the extra money for a second pump? it seems to me that you can just use one pump, and pull the hoses off of one vessel, and put it on the nipple of the next vessel when needed, and that doesn't seem like enough of a "hassle" to shell out the extra $150 for a second pump.

here's my idea/plans, let me know if i'm silly or missing something here.


single tier design, one sanke keggle on the left for my BK, and a burner beneath it. next to that a 10gallon igloo cooler for my MLT. on the right, a sanke keggle with a sight glass, and thermometer on it, and a burner beneath it for my HLT. a single ball valve with a "regular" nipple on all three vessels at the bottom. one march pump.

brewing would be as follows- start by heating up mash water on my direct fire hlt. once water is to mashing temps, hook up a hose on the ball valve of the hlt, into the inlet side of my pump. hose on outlet side of pump and the other end of that hose into the inlet ball valve of my MLT. open the valves on the MLT and the HLT, turn on the pump, and drain pump some water into the MLT, add some grains, shut off the ball valve to stop the flow, mix the water and grains, open the valve again, add more water, more grains, and reapeat the process untill i've gotten the correct amount of water in my MLT, which i can gauge by the sight glass on the HLT, with all the grains and then shut off the pump. close the lid on the cooler and begin my mash.

step two, with 10 or so minutes left in the mash, fire up the burner beneath my HLT to heat the remaining water to my sparge temperature. then when the mash is complete, take the hose off of my MLT outlet, that the other end is on the out side of the pump, and put it on the ball valve of my BK, and take the hose off of the ball valve of the HLT that the other end is on the in side of the pump, and put it on the ball valve of the MLT, then open the MLT and the BK valves, turn on the pump, and pump the first runnings from the MLT to the BK.

step three, put the pump in hose back on the HLT, and the pump out hose back on the MLT, and turn on the pump, and pump my sparge water from my HLT to my MLT. then give it the 10 or 20 minutes for my batch sparge.

step four, put the hoses back the OTHER way, and turn on the pump, open the ball valves, and pump my second runnings from my MLT to the BK.

step five, fire up the burner underneath the BK and brew as normal.

step six, put in my imerssion chiller, chill the beer as normal, open up the ball valve on my BK, and use gravity to drain the chilled beer into my fermenting vessel.

Basically in this set up, i don't see why anyone would ever need to shell out any "extra" money for a second pump, or for quick disconnects.

sorry for the long post, but i don't see why this would be a problem, and to me, it seems to make the most sense to go this way. single tier equals no elevated kegs/vessels, no hot liquid up high in the air, only takes two burners, and one pump. less money spent on steel to build a single tier system, and no need for a second expensive pump. i know that technically, i wouldn't even really need the second burner for the HLT, but doing it this way i don't have to spend the time heating up my strike and sparge water in my BK and having to pump it over to my HLT.

am i missing something?

thanks,

brian

 

[Bobby_M]

You've got it right. Single tiers with one pump can batch sparge all day. If you ever wanted to fly sparge you either have to rig up an additional vessel to shuttle either water or wort via gravity or use a second pump.

Be sure to build heat shields for the MLT into the design. You may want to move the MLT to either end of the triplets so that you only need one shield and so you're not heating it from both sides. In other words, there's no real reason to put the MLT in the middle of two infernos.

 

[bohdan987]

hi.
if you are not doing H.E.R.M.S system that one pump is fine.
curently iam working on single tie 10g H.E.R.M.S system and with one pump i think its inpossible to do because i fly sparge.
example:
pump1 pump2
mlt ---> bk bk ---> heat exchanger. i be using bk as my hlt also

i don't use quick disconnects i use a garden hose fittings, also don't forget to put a ball valve with a T, on the line next to a pump, lower as possible so you can drain lines when you done cleaning your rig.

 

[chainsawbrewing]

thanks guys for the replies. i've done about three years worth of all grain brewing, done around two 5 gallon batches a month for those three years, and all the beers i've done, i've batch sparged, had just fine efficiency, and i've never had to change the temp of my mash or anything, and been fine, so i don't see myself ever needing to go to fly sparging, and i completely honestly don't understand enough about rims and herms to even understand why i would ever need a system like that for the beers i brew and drink.

in your opinions, am i missing the boat there? will i kick myself down the road for not going with a rims or herms set up? once again, i don't even know enought about either system to know why i would kick myself, just looking for opinions from personal experience.

also thanks bobby about the advice of moving the cooler MLT on the end, instead of the middle, in between both burners. makes good sense, and i honestly didn't think of that potential flaming plastic issue, lol.


what about my question on the quick disconnects? do they automatically "shut off" and stop the flow after you disconnect them? i've seen photos of people using Q.D.'s , and looks to me like they are still using ball valves on their vessels, which makes me wonder why anyone would need to shell out extra money for Q.D.'s when all the brewing ball valve set ups come with hose barb nipples already on them, and it seems just as easy to me to just push on a hose, and pull a hose off, and not have to spend the money on Q.D.'s

 

[Bobby_M]

There are a few disconnect types that shut off on either the female coupler, the male nipple end or both but you really don't want them. They restrict flow quite a bit.

Not everyone is buying ball valves systems with included nipples. Even so, you'll wear out your hose if you constantly push and pull them off the barbs. They'll leak if you don't clamp the hose onto the barb so that's a huge pain in the butt.

If you leave it unclamped on the pump input side, it will suck air and kill your pump prime. If you leave it unclamped on the pump output side, it will leak liquid.

 

[chainsawbrewing]

There are a few disconnect types that shut off on either the female coupler, the male nipple end or both but you really don't want them. They restrict flow quite a bit.

Not everyone is buying ball valves systems with included nipples. Even so, you'll wear out your hose if you constantly push and pull them off the barbs. They'll leak if you don't clamp the hose onto the barb so that's a huge pain in the butt.

ok cool. so with the Q.D.'s that you're recommending, they don't actually shut off the flow on either end, and you still control the flow with the ball valve, correct? and the main reason for using them is to extend the life of the hose, prevent a leak from a wallered out hose, and the ease of one hand connecting/disconnecting, and not having to mess with shoving a raw hose on a nipple, and then having to mess with taking it off, correct?

do you have a link or brandname you'd reccomend for the Q.D.'s?

lastly, (thank you again for all the help, lol) the reason in my ideas/plans i mentioned feeding the MLT and the BK with water and wort through the bottom/outlet ball valve of each vessel versus just draping the hose up on the top of the vessel and letting the liquid "fall into" the vessel, was because of sloshing the wort pre boil. is there any issues you forsee with doing it this way?