Single infusion --a bunch of bull ?

[Gabe]

So I don't want to go barking up the wrong tree, as I beleive in SI just as much as anyone else. I ran into an old neighbor today who was a brewer for 35 years, and now makes world class brandy and wine. I respect him as a brewer as he brewed in Germany and Ireland for sum years. I brought up the fact that all of my beers have been done with single infusion mashing and he looked at me as though I was completely crazy. He practicly through the brew book at me and said that single infusion is cutting a huge corner in brewing a good beer. I tryed my best at explaining that todays malts are modified enough so one can do a single infusion and he just laughed in disbelief. He then explained that when he would brew he would do all decoction mashing. Double for his ales and sometimes triples. He said you cant have a good beer without body and mouth feel. He then proceeded to give me a triple decocted Barley wine that had been aging for 19 years! I have NEVER had a beer such as this.---- cant explain it He told me that when the micro beer (HB) thing blew up, single infusion mashing was a poor mans way of getting beer, not good beer but just beer. I walked away with my mind running on overdrive. I am going to brew with him at a later date. Sorry about the rant but this guy is ? our beerhood! Talk to me!

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Give him one of your best beers and see what he thinks about it. If he says it's good beer, what else is there to say?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

So, you've found an opinion...and not one to take lightly, since it comes with so much experience and positive results. However, you've done your reading, and you know what other very experienced brewers have to say about single infusion mashes.

If you are satisfied with your results, there is no need to change what you're doing. If you're curious about decoction mashing, try it out! Find a good German or Belgian recipe where a decoction might be appropriate, brew one with a single infusion mash, then try it again with a decoction.

Personally, I'd like to try a decoction sometime, but I'm going to get a few more single infusion and step mashes under my belt, first.

 

[Dude]

I'd suggest NOT giving him your beer. This person has a pre-conceived notion that nothing will stack up to decoction mashed beers.

Phooey. Do single infusion and believe with the rest of us what you should be doing.

Let the old fart be stuck in his ways--you'll never change it.

 

[Gabe]

Yeah Yuri , I believe in trial an error as well. But does the extra effort of Decocting really change the final product as much as this oldtimer say's it does---? I 'll be one to try it though. I plan on taking a tried an true Pale Ale recipe of mine and do it to it. The conversation I had with him just made me wanna stop for a seconed and think--- maby I am missing the big picture here and takin a short cut through brewing with the single infusion. I think I going to write to BYO or Zymurgy on the subject.

 

[Gabe]

Here here Dude, LOL. Three cheers for us... I just don't know until I at least try to get it down. Any of you tried it B4 ?

 

[Dude]

Here here Dude, LOL. Three cheers for us... I just don't know until I at least try to get it down. Any of you tried it B4 ?

Oh man...I sense this thread is going to go downhill fast.....

This is my opinion....but I will put my beers up to ANY decocted beer of the same style. Decoction for beers but anything besides Dopplebocks, etc is a WASTE of time. If you want a maltier flavor, or more mouth feel or more red color...add adjunct malts to it.

Color? Melanoidin
Body/mouthfeel? Carapils
Malty? Victory

 

[Gabe]

Not to many decocters, thats what I thought.

 

[Orfy]

Saying single infusion brewing is a poor mans brewing method is like saying decoction is a fools way of brewing.

In years gone by it may of been necassary to use decotion methods to get the best from a malt or a beer using a single malt but today you can get all you need from a malt with a single infusion and tailor your beers flavour profile with specialty malts and adjuncts.

If you want to brew like a monk go wear a habit, shave your head and find some really under modified malt, use large open stone or wood vats then come talk to me about the need for decotion mashing.

 

[delboy]

Surely the decotion mash would add different levels of complexity to the beer? (I can't see how it wouldn't to be honest).

Im not saying for one second that im going to rush of and change from single infusion (im lazy and it makes good beer). But there is many things that used to be done in brewing history out of neseccity such as hoppping beer that in reality you don't need to do (could you imagine beer with no hops ) in the modern world because of improvements/understanding in sanitation.

Is it possible that while we know it isn't required that it may still add something to the final product!!! I think there probably is some truth in what the old timer is saying, breweries operate on LSD (pounds, shilling and pence) it probably isn't worth the effort for them, but for the enthuesatic craft/homebrewer perhaps it is, i for one wouldn't dismiss something out of hand without even having tried it at least ONCE, that seems very high handed and blinkered IMO!!

 

[the_bird]

Oh man...I sense this thread is going to go downhill fast.....

This is my opinion....but I will put my beers up to ANY decocted beer of the same style. Decoction for beers but anything besides Dopplebocks, etc is a WASTE of time. If you want a maltier flavor, or more mouth feel or more red color...add adjunct malts to it.

Color? Melanoidin
Body/mouthfeel? Carapils
Malty? Victory

Alright, I'm going to quibble with you for one second...

You said not too long ago that you wanted to (and I'm going to paraphrase here) "stretch" yourself as a brewer by getting better at adjusting things like mouthfeel/body via mash techniques. To this end, I know you're trying to get better control over things like mash thickness. Don't ask me to dig up the thread (although I will), but I know you've said words to the effect of "I'd like to be able to get away from using carapils and get the effect through my brewing techniques/"

If that's the case, and the use of a decotion can impact the variables you mentioned (plus clarity, IIRC) - why not put that in your aresenal? How is it different, theoretically, from targeting particular characteristics via mash temp, thickness, etc., versus targeting them by boiling some of your grain?

Methinks I have another nominee for the "Unresolved Issues" Papazian...

 

[zoebisch01]

I think there are several factors going on here. First off, it sounds like he knows what he is doing in the realm he is used to. Second, because he is comfortable in that realm and has been successful I think he is prone to shun some of the obvious advances in malting science. Third, if it works for you then so be it. Personally I have never attempted a decoction mash because there has been no reason to for me at least. That is not to say I don't think some beers wouldn't benefit (perhaps greatly) from it, but I personally have not come to that place as a brewer yet.

I agree though, he would probably be biased if you gave him a beer you made. The whole crook of the argument is this: If you brewed them sided by side (two identical recipes) one with the decoction mash and the other single infusion, they would most definitely produce different products. Problem is, which one is better? Just because you do the decoction mash doesn't mean it is better, but different.

One could argue that it is impossible to make a good beer without the use of Candi Sugar. There is more to what Candi Sugar provides to many of the Trappist Ales (etc) beyond flavor.

One could argue that it is impossible to make a good beer without the use of a starter.

The list goes on and on and on.

 

[EdWort]

I don't do decoction simply because I don't have the equipment to do it properly, but I don't know if I would if I could. My beers are just fine using the single infusion method, in fact the are downright tasty!

I wonder if the guys with the HERMS & RIMS rigs do it?

 

[Cheesefood]

http://brewery.org/library/DecoctFAQ.html

The traditional decoction methods are designed for very poor quality malts, as a result they often require very long mash times. (Note that for amateur brewers this is not an issue because it is almost impossible to get these poor malts.)

 

[ayrton]

I would think that any barley wine, when properly bottled and stored, would taste fantastic after 19 years. See if he has any "regular" beer, drink it, and then see if it's any better than your stuff. Some of the most fantastic beers I've ever had were from single-infusion mashes.

 

[delboy]

http://brewery.org/library/DecoctFAQ.html

The traditional decoction methods are designed for very poor quality malts, as a result they often require very long mash times. (Note that for amateur brewers this is not an issue because it is almost impossible to get these poor malts.)

Hops were used in beer for their anti-microbial properties to stop beer spoilage. With improved sanitation we no longer need them, would you advocate removing them from beer??

Just because we have access to good malts that brewers of old didn't, doesn't mean that processes that they utilised to get the best out of the malt may not be useful to aquire more specialised flavour profiles even with todays malted grain.

 

[cweston]

Hops were used in beer for their anti-microbial properties to stop beer spoilage. With improved sanitation we no longer need them, would you advocate removing them from beer??

Just because we have access to good malts that brewers of old didn't, doesn't mean that processes that they utilised to get the best out of the malt may not be useful to aquire more specialised flavour profiles even with todays malted grain.

That wasn't really what I infered the point to be: I think it's more like that the oldtimer in question learned his craft at a time when decoction/multi-step mashing may have been necessary to brewing good beer.

There may or may not be reasons to decoct/step various beers, but it is almost never necessary when making barley beers from modern malts.

 

[rdwj]

Personally, I'd want to learn what he knows. But after listening to what he says and trying his method, why not do a blind taste test with the same recipe between a single and decoction mash?

No matter what happens, both of you will be better brewers from the experience.

 

[the_bird]

I watched Kai do a decotion a couple weeks ago, and the process itself looks a lot simpler than I was expecting. Basically, yeah, you need a smallish pot (I have a 5-gallon from my extract days that I use to heat sparge water now) and a slotted spoon. Nothing else. I'm a little worried about the logistics of when I'll be boiling the mash and when I need to start getting sparge water heated up, but it's manageable, I think...

 

[Evan!]

Your neighbor sounds like a pompous bastard...and, in my opinion, the last thing homebrewing needs is pompous bastards who are 100% sure that their way is the best way.

What WOULD be funny is to learn how to do a good decoction mash. Then brew 4 similarly-styled beers. 2 decoction, 2 SI. Bring him an unmarked bottle of each one. I'd bet that he can't blindly pick out the decoction batches.

 

[jdoiv]

Several years ago, I had the opportunity to go to a beer dinner with the head brewmaster for Sam Adams. Very nice gentleman who had spent years brewing in Germany. He helped Jim Koch perfect the recipe for the Lager when Sam Adams first started. I asked him about whether they did single infusion or decoction mashes. He said that he only did decoction mashes as he wanted to have complete control over the grain. Basically he said the less the malter did to the grain the better as far as he was concerned. He wanted to be the one that controlled how the grain was modified and the end product. He said that it allowed him to get the end result he wanted on a consistent basis which is what a large brewery needs, consistency. It also allowed them to get over 90% effciency which is another major concern for a commercial brewer. He said for home brewing and with the quality of the malts out these days that single infusion was fine for most beer styles the home brewer would try. And great beers could be made by using single infusion. But there isn't that much in common with what the home brewer does and a large commercial brewery. It's a little like comparing apples to oranges (or ale to lager).

 

[delboy]

Your neighbor sounds like a pompous bastard...and, in my opinion, the last thing homebrewing needs is pompous bastards who are 100% sure that their way is the best way.

What WOULD be funny is to learn how to do a good decoction mash. Then brew 4 similarly-styled beers. 2 decoction, 2 SI. Bring him an unmarked bottle of each one. I'd bet that he can't blindly pick out the decoction batches.

By instantly dismissing decoction mashing without having tried it would we not be guilty of the same crime
Not that im calling anybodys legitimacy and parentage into question (SI or decoction mashing just doesn't move me in that way ).

 

[Cheesefood]

Jdoiv: was it the bearded brewmaster from the commercials? He looks like a cool guy.

As for the original argument, it's hard to say that any of us are going to beat a guy with 35 years of experience. No matter what he does or how he does it, cances are it'll be better. So if decoction is how he cut his teeth, then let him have it. Perhaps in 33 years, I'll be all about decoction too. However, in the mean time I'd like to master single infusion before I get into trick brewing.

 

[jdoiv]

Jdoiv: was it the bearded brewmaster from the commercials? He looks like a cool guy.

No, he isn't the head brewer I'm speaking of. My best friend's girlfriend runs the Sam Adams brewery in Boston. They mostly do R&D work at that brewery. From what she and my friend say, the bearded guy is really cool and home brews as well.

The gentleman I'm speaking of had to be in his early 60's when I met him back in 2000 or 2001. I had just started home brewing and my friend was a sales rep for Sam Adams. He put on the beer dinner for some of his clients at a restaurant in Burbank and had the brewer fly out for the dinner. I got a ticket and went. Lots of fun.

 

[Dude]

Alright, I'm going to quibble with you for one second...

You said not too long ago that you wanted to (and I'm going to paraphrase here) "stretch" yourself as a brewer by getting better at adjusting things like mouthfeel/body via mash techniques. To this end, I know you're trying to get better control over things like mash thickness. Don't ask me to dig up the thread (although I will), but I know you've said words to the effect of "I'd like to be able to get away from using carapils and get the effect through my brewing techniques/"

If that's the case, and the use of a decotion can impact the variables you mentioned (plus clarity, IIRC) - why not put that in your aresenal? How is it different, theoretically, from targeting particular characteristics via mash temp, thickness, etc., versus targeting them by boiling some of your grain?

Methinks I have another nominee for the "Unresolved Issues" Papazian...

Quibble on young padawan.

I can still do all of those things without decocting. Mouthfeel is easy. Find the right mix of mash thickness and mash temperature. Easy with some experimenting. Notice I never mentiond removing some of the mash and playing with it? You are barking up the wrong tree here.

I'm not going to decoct because I don't have to. What is so difficult for you guys to understand that you don't need to do it because of the availability of higher modified malts? The 0old timers decocted for that reason--better efficiency. It just so happened that they may have noticed the beers tasted better afterwards. Hmmm...I wonder why?

Let me ask this. How many pro brewers do you think do decoction mashes? They don't, or a VERY large percentage don't. It is a huge waste of time when they can add some melanoidin or aromatic or cara-pils to a big single infusion mash and be done with it. Obviously that = great beer.

I'm not putting down decoctions--there is a purpose for it in some styles. I respect the crap out of Kai because he actually brews like a German brewer. He enjoys the hell out of it. His beers rock. He also brews traditional German styles that might require the extra attention.

But for the rest of the homebrewers that think it is a requirement for every other style because they think it adds something, well, I'll disagree. I said this long ago...it is the "flavor of the week" in homebrewing. For those brewers that decocted their pale ale or their ESB last week--I'll put mine up against yours with the extra doillar I spent on a half pound of aromatic and melanoidin added to the mash.

 

[EdWort]

Your neighbor sounds like a pompous bastard...and, in my opinion, the last thing homebrewing needs is pompous bastards who are 100% sure that their way is the best way.

LOL! Sounds like an EAC to me.

 

[casebrew]

snip..,.It also allowed them to get over 90% effciency which is another major concern for a commercial brewer. He said for home brewing and with the quality of the malts out these days that single infusion was fine for most beer styles the home brewer would try. snip .

Our Elder God of Homebrewing, Charlie, said the same thing. 3-4 steps gained 3% in sugars. Maybe important to huge commercial operation, not to me. But I did try it once, about my 3rd batch. I was so un-sophisicated then that I didn't see any point. Same today, I'll bet.

 

[Willsellout]

ask him what he thinks about batch sparging...



Dan

 

[Cheesefood]

Not to keep poking you, Dude, but is it possible that some brewers might do it as a cost saving measure over keeping additional malts on hand? Especially brewers that source their own grain may decide it's cheaper to decoct than to source and store specialty malts. If one were brewing for consistancy, I'd think that they'd choose process over ingredients since it's easier to reproduce a process than to find consistant ingredients.

 

[david_42]

I've done one decoction, on Poor Richard's Ale and only because I was running out of room in the cooler to add hot water. I can't address what if anything it did to the flavor, having never made an ale with a pile of corn before.

I see similar attitudes on rv.net, where old guys are arguing about the current merits of vehicles based on their experiences of 40 & 50 years ago. Ditto, anti-diesel. Ditto, anti-whatever. It's amusing in small quantities.

I know a few pro brewers who have done decoctions, but not as a rule, just for a seasonal. One big problem is the amount of time it takes. More work and one mash run instead of two for the day.