Should we pass a law against twist-off tops?

[SPLASTiK]

As of July 2011, the minimum printed can order from Ball was around 135,000 cans of ONE design. I can get the prices for lids and cans out if you guys are interested. And don't forget freight for the cans and lids, storage for all those empty cans (24 pallets worth of one design) and the canning line itself which is much more expensive than a bottling line.

Maybe cheaper in the long run for an established regional brewery but canning for a small or start up brewery would kill them unless the owners have several million dollars laying around and seem to be allergic to profits.

I'm kind of interested... What's a minimum run cost? I just find it odd that a small brewery would be killed by it seeing that it's catching on with small breweries in Alaska that don't really have the greatest distribution like (and I think are only on a 10bbl system) Kenai River Brewing.

 

[BrewKnurd]

Who needs a bottle opener when you have one of these?

And less than 20% of people smoke. Granted, there are others who may carry around lighters for other reasons... but most people, in addition to not carrying a bottle opened, don't carry around a lighter either.

I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be very possible for people to get a pry top open if they wanted. but any suggestion of something else extra that a person could carry around (or better, the suggestion that someone should based their decision of what watch to buy on whether it has a bottle opener) does not negate the point that twistoffs are as easy or easier to open for any person in any situation with any assortment of accessories attached to their person. By definition, that would make them the more convenient closure.

On the can topic, around here, abita just released three of their beers in cans, I'm looking forward to giving them a try. I've never liked abita bottles for bottling. The part of the bottle that the swing cappers grab onto to push the cap down isn't as solid as on standard bottles, so a number of them broke on me while bottling. therefore, i'm happy theire putting their been in cars, because at least i can recycle the cans as opposed to throwing away the bottles.

 

[Revvy]

Actually it's THESE GUYS, who the craft brewers are going to. This is the company that has made it available to the smaller level craft brewer....

WELCOME TO CASK.COM

I'm not awake enough to find it, but they were the one's that lowered the size of the minimum buy in on cans to make it appeal to smaller breweries. It might be that cask buys them from ball in bulk and splits the orders down for smaller breweries. Kinda like when we do a bulk grain buy, we buy a minimum order and parcel it out among our brewers.

But regardless of whatever the numbers are, that's what changed in the industry, the required minimum order a brewery had to order used to be larger than entire runs of most craft breweries. Now it's not. And if it were small enough for a homebrewer, many would do it. If a canning machine cost a few hundred and you could walk into any homebrewshop and pick up a couple cases just like you can bottles, for peanuts. You'd see a lot of homebrewers joining the can revolution.

This explains what happend with Oskar Blues, the first. I think most folks who still have a bias against it, are just ignorant as to what's been going on in the industry, and are just biased. Like the folks who still think "ONLY GOOD BEER COMES IN FLIP TOPS." Which is not the case as I sowed in my list above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4vwBrJ2_Wn8#!

 

[spearko520]

But regardless of whatever the numbers are, that's what changed in the industry, the required minimum order a brewery had to order used to be larger than entire runs of most craft breweries. Now it's not. And if it were small enough for a homebrewer, many would do it. If a canning machine cost a few hundred and you could walk into any homebrewshop and pick up a couple cases just like you can bottles, for peanuts. You'd see a lot of homebrewers joining the can revolution.

heck yeah! way lighter than glass and way more compact to store and chill. I love the idea that we are getting closer to canning! i also like the capri suns, though, so...

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Maybe cheaper in the long run for an established regional brewery but canning for a small or start up brewery would kill them unless the owners have several million dollars laying around and seem to be allergic to profits.

Sure killed Surly when they first started out. Man, how I wish they were still around, they had some good beers.

 

[Revvy]

heck yeah! way lighter than glass and way more compact to store and chill. I love the idea that we are getting closer to canning! i also like the capri suns, though, so...

If you look at their website, even many Canadian Brew on Premisies are canning their customer's beers. So maybe if Homebrew shops invested in the systems, we could just go in buy the "generic" cans and then just packaged the beer at the shop.

 

[Revvy]

Sure killed Surly when they first started out. Man, how I wish they were still around, they had some good beers.

Yeah according to Cask.com the cost breaks down to 12 cents/can for the entire process.

Don 't you just loved the biased ignorance of some folks? I bet he's never bothered to read about cask.com, which we've been talking about on here for about 4-5 years since Oskar started bottling, so he's operating under the misconception that it's such huge expensive undertaking......And he's so SURE of his beliefs that it's the scourge of the industry...

All he needed to do was go to youtube....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4vwBrJ2_Wn8#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HrCJTukakr0#!

But the internet will never catch on as well, computers are just SO expensive, noone would ever have one in their homes....

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

But the internet will never catch on as well, computers are just SO expensive, noone would ever have one in their homes....

haven't you heard, 9 out of ten families that buys a computer is financially ruined. especially those young, just starting out families. add the cost of internet service, and none of it will ever catch on.

 

[ajbram]

Edit: I tried drinking champagne under water in the ocean before at an underwater 'wedding' in Cozumel (it was an unofficial wedding, they had gotten married in a real wedding before the trip). We all had scuba gear on, and we'd take out our regulator and drink from the bottle at about 25'. Didn't work so well though - it got sea water in it and tasted pretty bad. It made for good pictures though.

Pressure differential is a bitch when it comes to drinking out of bottles at depth.

 

[thatjonguy]

Yeah according to Cask.com the cost breaks down to 12 cents/can for the entire process.

Don 't you just loved the biased ignorance of some folks? I bet he's never bothered to read about cask.com, which we've been talking about on here for about 4-5 years since Oskar started bottling (canning?), so he's operating under the misconception that it's such huge expensive undertaking......And he's so SURE of his beliefs that it's the scourge of the industry...

All he needed to do was go to youtube....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4vwBrJ2_Wn8#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HrCJTukakr0#!

But the internet will never catch on as well, computers are just SO expensive, noone would ever have one in their homes....

You can disagree on my points but calling me ignorant is not cool man.

I have done a fair amount of reading on canning and canning systems in the micro brewing industry.

Based on my conversations with Jamie from Cask as well as the Cask price sheet from last year, the absolute minimum order for one can design (through Cask and Ball, standard 12oz) is 93,360 (12 pallets of 7780 cans each).

To run a small order such as 12 pallets the fee is $1500. Each can is about $0.12 plus $0.032 per lid and if you are running a small batch $0.016 extra.

I was incorrect the normal minimum is 20 pallets of 7780 cans = 156,600. Ball will keep some of the breweries cans in their warehouse until needed by the brewery at no cost, but that can add to the freight bill as filling a truck once versus taking a portion several times.

When you start getting into bottles vs cans, one needs to consider that you buy blank bottles and put a label on them. Labels are inexpensive for the most part, label applicators and bottle fillers are less expensive because there are more quality used ones floating around the industry. Canning lines are about $100k plus all the features you would want to assure quality in canning. Sure you could buy Cask's manual canner for about $15k, but I don't want to hand can 4960 cans on a 7bbl run.

Packaging the bottles or cans is another thing, but you really start splitting hairs because the cost of a paper 6 pack carrier and 6 pack rings are about the same if you use the really nice PakTech handles.

Wild Goose Engineering in Boulder has designed a canning system similar to Cask's for Upslope Brewing. The cost is almost the same as Cask once you add in all the features a good brewery would want to assure quality. Although Wild Goose quoted me $12k for an inline inkjet printer for date coding which I thought was a little too high. But even if you buy another system (even from China) you still have to acquire the cans from Ball and most likely they will want you to go through Cask. So you might as well buy everything from Cask, which makes a quality machine. As soon as the money for a canning line becomes available, we are planning to switch.

Saying canning would kill a small brewery was a bit of an exaggeration, but some of us live in BMC country where getting financing for a brewing system and all the other equipment is hard enough (oh now you want $125 to 200k to put it in cans, instead of $50k to put it in bottles?) Under-capitalization seems to be one of the top (if not the top) killer of small breweries.

Now can't we all just get along and drink some beer?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Saying canning would kill a small brewery was a bit of an exaggeration, but some of us live in BMC country where getting financing for a brewing system and all the other equipment is hard enough (oh now you want $125 to 200k to put it in cans, instead of $50k to put it in bottles?) Under-capitalization seems to be one of the top (if not the top) killer of small breweries.

Now can't we all just get along and drink some beer?

Surly lives right here in MillerCoors country.



just sayin'.

 

[thatjonguy]

Surly also doesn't use a Cask system or they would never get anything done. They are also in the Twin Cities, on several interstates and right door to Wisconsin. I am sure you can attest to the wonderful craft beer scene in Minneapolis...

Some of us live in 60K towns that have a bigger BMC selection than craft.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Surly also doesn't use a Cask system or they would never get anything done. They are also in the Twin Cities, on several interstates and right door to Wisconsin. I am sure you can attest to the wonderful craft beer scene in Minneapolis...

Some of us live in 60K towns that have a bigger BMC selection than craft.

21st Amendment (fairly small brewery) uses Ball cans, at least in this area. i believe their beer is contracted through that brewery up in Cold Spring, MN (pop >60k, albeit close-ish to WI and right off I-94) who makes Cold Spring ciders and a few contracted beers.
i think the point here is that canning isn't a killer to a small brewery, so to speak. it seems more and more small breweries are canning, and i don't think they'd be doing that if it hurt their bottom line.

 

[Revvy]

Actually according to a q & A with Jamie Gordon, Surly IS using cask..

Saturday, June 12th 2010

Q & A with Jamie Gordon
(Cask Brewing Systems)

Ever had a can of Dale's Pale Ale? What about a Surly Bender or a Caldera IPA? Tell you what, name any craft beer you've ever had in a can and I bet you that Jamie Gordon, and the company he works for, have had something to do with it.

Jamie is a Technical Sales Representative with Cask Brewing Systems, based in Calgary, Alberta. These are the guys that design, build and set-up the canning systems/lines that put all your favorite craft beers in those nice, neat little aluminum packages.

It wasn't that long ago that the idea of a small canning line would have been laughed at (quite loudly) but my how things have changed. Nowadays business is booming and Jamie is a super busy guy.

He is currently helping the folks at Milwaukee Brewing Company set up their new canning line, which they'll be using to put two of their brews into 16 oz. cans. He was nice enough to take some time to answer a few questions of mine. Thanks so much Jamie! I know you are very busy so I really appreciate it.

Here we go...

(CC) Briefly tell us a little bit about yourself and how long you've been with Cask Brewing Systems.

(JG) I’ve been with Cask Brewing Systems for over 25 years and got my start in the brewing business as a homebrewer and then a homebrew supply shop owner in Montreal which I opened in 1983.



(CC) How many US/Canadian craft breweries to date has Cask Brewing Systems supplied canning equipment to?

(JG) I’ve lost track of the total. (CraftCans - we'll say around 100 - or pretty much ALL of them!)


(CC) You told me before that an absolutely astounding 96% of all craft breweries canning their beer do so with Cask Brewing Systems equipment. That is an incredible percentage. To what do you guys attribute this? Who is your "competition"?

(JG) Basically nobody ever thought about building “micro” sized canning machines until we stumbled on the idea back in 2000. At the time we were building them to solve another problem: the horrendous packaging issues that our BOP (U-Brew) customers were suffering through. Their shelf life sucked and it was directly attributable to the fact that their customers were responsible for washing and reusing their bottles. So we though the best way to eliminate the problem was to use a single use disposable package. After we sold about 70 of those manual systems to BOP’s we started getting calls from small breweries and that’s when it hit us: maybe there was a market for this in the craft brewing industry.

Our only competition at the moment tends to come from the European or Chinese manufacturers of much larger systems. Nobody builds units as compact as ours and at a cost that suits the 500 bbl to 50,000 bbl breweries.



(CC) Who was your very first client and when was that? Whose been your most recent client(s)?

(JG) Our first customers were Canadian BOP’s (Brew on Premise) – our first craft brewery customer was Yukon Brewing way up in northern Canada. Our first U.S. customer was Oskar Blues' in Lyons (Colorado) – and we all know how well Dale did with that...


(CC) I seem to read a lot about the initial costs for brewers wanting to invest in canning equipment and that it can be a deterrent for small breweries. Is that true? Can we expect the costs to go down in the future?

(JG) Our manual systems are $15,000 – our automated lines start at $81,500. So even 500 bbl breweries can afford to get started with a table top manual unit.



(CC) What do you see as the most positive benefits of putting beer in cans over bottles?

(JG) Depends on your perspective: from the environmentalists point of view it’s the shipping weight of the finished product (almost half of what it is in glass bottles) and the infinite recyclability. From the brewer’s point of view it’s the protection of the flavour of his product until it arrives in the hand of his customer – total UV light protection, impermeability, low air, etc... from the customers point of view it’s just the convenience: I can take a good craft beer anywhere I go now without having to worry about breakage.



(CC) As craft beer drinkers are becoming more widely accepting of good beer in cans where might this "trend" take us?

(JG) SO far we’ve only seen the 12 and 16 oz (and a few 500 ml European) can formats used by craft breweries. I think we are going to start to see other formats (8 oz for special high alcohol barrel aged products, 24 oz...) used over the next year...who knows...maybe even some newer formats altogether.

In fact according to this PDF, Canvantages, Cask/Surly won an award for a beer.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Actually according to a q & A with Jamie Gordon, Surly IS using cask..

nice! that $81k totally killed Surly, they've had to open a pub here in NE to keep from going under.

In fact according to this PDF, Canvantages, Cask/Surly won an award for a beer.

no way, Surly went bust when they started canning. where do you get your information, sir? besides, all those beers on that PDF are swill, especially the Oskar Blues brews, canned swill, not even worthy of a twist off bottle.

 

[thatjonguy]

Actually according to a q & A with Jamie Gordon, Surly IS using cask...

Well no wonder they can't keep up with demand.

It would be a wonderful world in which brewers and breweries have a surplus of money upon opening. It would be great if all breweries canned. However, canning is one of the things on our chopping block...can't fully finance? Canning goes and we bottle until we can show the bank or our investors that we are making money and need to install upgrades for canning.

I also think that canning in BMC country is a great marketing tool for outdoor activities where BMC is sometimes the only choice for pools, golf courses (depending on your area of the country).

My other point was breweries that may look at over extending themselves for the sake of canning because it is the cool new thing instead of watching the bottom line may be setting themselves up to fail...which is sad because we need as many craft breweries as we can handle. The point is that bottling is still less expensive for breweries than cans, although the gap is closing and used Cask systems are starting to show up in greater frequency. I am sorry if I confused you...I still had a few imperial stouts in when I wrote my first post.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Well no wonder they can't keep up with demand.

right, it's the cans that are keeping them from keeping up with demand. or maybe it's the dreaded BMC monster eating half their batch after it's canned. maybe you're just wrong and it hurts your little ego too much to admit it..... .are you serious, dude?

It would be a wonderful world in which brewers and breweries have a surplus of money upon opening. It would be great if all breweries canned. However, canning is one of the things on our chopping block...can't fully finance? Canning goes and we bottle until we can show the bank or our investors that we are making money and need to install upgrades for canning.

like i said, you're ego's butt hurt. hopefully your above statement kisses it and makes it all better. if i had a nickel for every time somebody used that claim as their 14th fallback point on these forums, i'd own a brewery and work in the field as well.

I also think that canning in BMC country is a great marketing tool for outdoor activities where BMC is sometimes the only choice for pools, golf courses (depending on your area of the country).

what is this BMC country you keep referring to? last i checked, AB and MillerCoors had the lions share of the global beer market. must be the one of those crazy rumors i've heard.

My other point was breweries that may look at over extending themselves for the sake of canning because it is the cool new thing instead of watching the bottom line may be setting themselves up to fail...which is sad because we need as many craft breweries as we can handle. The point is that bottling is still less expensive for breweries than cans, although the gap is closing and used Cask systems are starting to show up in greater frequency. I am sorry if I confused you...I still had a few imperial stouts in when I wrote my first post.

again..........

so, do you have a point, or are you just arguing for the sake of it? you've tried to prove your point with nothing but false statements and claims. each one further discounting your previous stance. i'm waiting for the next reason that twist offs are evil and cans cause brain damage from leeching. should be easier to prove wrong than the last several. so, what's the point you're trying to make here? oh, wait, all this was cuz you had a few drinks and became argumentative. again, are you serious, dude?

 

[Revvy]

Well no wonder they can't keep up with demand.

Dude, no offense meant, but you're so full of poop that this thread needs an enema.

Just admit you're a snob against cans and be done with it. Don't keep making up a bunch of pseudo facts to back up your argument, that are easily googlizised, THEN when proven wrong, come up with some other BS....just admit you don't like cans, of twist off bottles, or whatever for a purely illogical/irrational or emotional reasonand be done with it....

Why rather than just admitting that they have an "emotional" reason against something, and leaving it as that...do folks think they have to justify it, with "facts."

I hadn't written my "opinion" on cans yet, but here it is- the process and cost would have to be really easy and cheap for me to give up bottling.

Because I have an EMOTIONAL attachment to bottles & labels. That goes back to the history of brewing. I love bottles, especially when they come in different shapes than the standard industry 12 ouncers. I love bud american ale's bottles, and hoegaarden and the stubbies from some of the craft brewers or sierra nevada, and Leffe, and big assed belgian ones and I especially love old bottles.

Like those found in garage sales from defunct regional breweries which etchings on it. I have some thick walled pints from the 1970s that I covet, that use for historical recipes. They're awesome because they are back from the days when bottles WERE re-filled on bottling lines, and they have the marks to show them....

I love that stuff, and despite the fact that cans MAY be better for the beer, MAY be cheaper, can take up less space (a case of beer in cans has less of a footprint) and if they are recyclable, even they take up less space in a box or a garbage can especially crushed than the thousands of bottles I have all over the place, it's hard to consider making the switch.

Unless it were dirt cheap and easier than my bottling system is.

BUT I haven't start throwing out a buncha pseudo facts to back me up...Like "no good beers come in twist offs" or "Cans affect the flavor or beer" or "The liners leech (if it can be proven other wise,) or "Surly doesn't use that can system, and now that I'm proving wrong, I'll blame it on that."

I just admit my preference is PURELY an emotional one and has no basis in any "Facts" pseudo or otherwise....That's all you need to do.

Just admit there's no RATIONAL reason for hating them, and let that be that. No one's gonna disrespect your feelings about it. We all have opinions/beliefs...it's just that most folks can't/won't admit the reasons behind them.

It's just when folks throw what they think are "facts" that are usually outdated, or just plain false that it irks me. Especially when it can take 5 seconds to find the TRUTH about something, anyone may be saying....

This thread would have been done a long time ago if you didn't throw out a bunch of stuff that tool 5 seconds on google to disprove.

 

[SPLASTiK]

You might not want to can 7bbl by hand... but I know breweries who would/do/did!

If there's a will, there's a way. Bootleggers in Orange County used a few guys with Blichmann beerguns until they picked up a used Meheen a couple weeks ago to bottle. They said they've used them for over 150,000 22oz bottles over the last 4 years and they're all over in SoCal, even Whole Foods.

 

[thatjonguy]

Dude, no offense meant, but you're so full of poop that this thread needs an enema.

Just admit you're a snob against cans and be done with it....

I'm not a snob against cans, I think they are great. Several sitting in my fridge right now for this evening. Coffee Bender, Furious, Oasis and Halcyon among them.

BUT I haven't start throwing out a buncha pseudo facts to back me up...Like "no good beers come in twist offs" or "Cans affect the flavor or beer" or "The liners leech (if it can be proven other wise,) or "Surly doesn't use that can system, and now that I'm proving wrong, I'll blame it on that."

Kindly point out where I said that cans affect the flavor of beer or where I said that no good beers come in twist offs. I will admit that I was wrong: I thought (incorrectly) that Surly used a bigger canning line which would have made sense as they are very popular. (I am sorry to the interwebz for my mistake...I am human.)

Just admit there's no RATIONAL reason for hating them, and let that be that. No one's gonna disrespect your feelings about it. We all have opinions/beliefs...it's just that most folks can't/won't admit the reasons behind them.

I never said I hated them.

It's just when folks throw what they think are "facts" that are usually outdated, or just plain false that it irks me. Especially when it can take 5 seconds to find the TRUTH about something, anyone may be saying....

Kind of like when you said the minimum can order was 10k?

This thread would have been done a long time ago if you didn't throw out a bunch of stuff that tool 5 seconds on google to disprove.

Don't we all come here to learn something or are some of us here to be self-righteous and not learn anything from other members? I was trying to educate others that canning is not necessarily cheaper, if they did not feel inclined to Google it for themselves and/or share a little info that is not readily available on a web search.

Sorry for trying to be helpful.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

*yawn* just a side note, since we're on the topic of non pop top bottles and craft beer, i just got my March/April BYO in the mail, great cover story. :rockin:

i'm off to do some reading. this thread's been real, it's been fun, but i can't say it's been real fun.

 

[Grinnan5150]

If it is a good beer it will taste good in a can, twist off or bottle. I have had great beers in cans and twist offs and lousy ones on bottles and vice versa. Just a matter of preference. There is no right or wrong here. The only reason why I like bottles is I can use them for brewing. It has nothing to do with snobbishness.

 

[Grinnan5150]

Also, here is a double whammy if you are a beer snob. I like pretty much anything by Leinenkugels. They all have twist offs AND are owned by MillerCoors!

 

[geezerpk]

I tend to drink most of my beers straight from the bottle and I much prefer the smooth lip feel of the pry offs. If that sounds a bit kinky, so be it. ;-D

 

[Revvy]

I just realized there's something else that we can't do with bottles without skunking, that we can with cans. At least in snowy Michigan....

Chill em down.

 

[jmprdood]

^^^Nice!!!

 

[Lunchtime]

I do that with bottles here in MO but I completely bury them...I've never noticed any off-flavors.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I just realized there's something else that we can't do with bottles without skunking, that we can with cans. At least in snowy Michigan....

Chill em down.

:rockin: i was already stocked up on canned brew, couple Surly's and (*gasp*) Miller Lite. i was gonna get some TallGrass IPA, in cans, but it's been awhile since i've had Stone IPA so i got that instead.

wonder if the He'Brew is in twist offs. new brewery for me. sounds tasty! and how 'bout that John Henry snifter? freebie from the beer girl demo-ing beers from that contract brewery up in Cold Spring, ya know, the small one that must be stretched financially from canning all that 21st Amendment beer.

 

[Revvy]

I didn't realize the IPA was He'brew. Everything I've had so far has been stellar. So far all their beers I've had have been pop tops.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I didn't realize the IPA was He'brew. Everything I've had so far has been stellar. So far all their beers I've had have been pop tops.

everything i've heard about He'Brew has been great. they get great reviews and have won some comps. must be cuz they bottle in pop tops. this one sounded too good to be passed up, warrior, centennial and cascade hops, dry hopped with simcoe, cascade and cent., malts are 2-row, Munich, CaraMunich I, wheat and 'dark' crystal (from label). just took a sip from the one my wife poured, very very very nice, very hoppy amber-ish beer, i think that's the last one she's getting. :rockin: