Should we pass a law against twist-off tops?

[maffewl]

Let's also stop buying wines with screw-tops. Because "everyone knows" that screw-top wines are cheap swill.

Totally agree... go for the box.

 

[Revvy]

Totally agree... go for the box.

Looks like since 2010 we can do it with out beer as well.

I just googled "beer in a box" and this popped up, how come noone's posted anything about this yet?!?

The upside of a party at your place is that you don’t have to worry about getting a ride home after a few beers. The downside is having to clean up the next morning and finding a way to dispose of all those empty beer bottles. But had you supplied the party with (or encouraged others to bring) a Kegless, this wouldn’t be a problem. Kegless is a 4L (roughly 8.5 pints) bag-in-a-box packaging concept that provides a more sustainable alternative to conventional single-serve bottle or can. It allows beer (and other carbonated beverages) to be stored and dispensed from a single container while maintaining the carbonation and freshness of the product.

Created by University of Technology Sydney, NSW, Australia, student Thomas Hussey, the collapsible design, which eliminates the need for the complex pressurized CO2 systems, has been shortlisted in the Australian Design Awards - James Dyson Awards 2010.

While we've seen the idea applied to single-serve packagessingle-serves, Hussey's design addresses large volume packages - it's simpler than existing solutions, reduces cost dramatically and has a less environmental impact throughout its life cycle.

He adds that individual containers (especially glass bottles) adds to the cost of package beer – around 50 percent - because of the large quantities of energy and raw materials consumed in their manufacture and distribution.

But beer is a carbonated beverage and hence must be stored in a pressurized container with no oxygen or UV light. In order to maintain the quality of their contents, current bulk containers use pressurized carbon dioxide systems which add complexity and cost.

Kegless uses a new way to store and dispense beer. The collapsible nature of the container allows the volume of the package to be reduced in size as the product is dispensed, maintaining the CO2 pressure while also preventing the ingress of oxygen.

Hussey says his simple design and minimal use of materials allow the package to be manufactured at up to 40 percent lower cost than conventional single serve beer packages with dramatically reduced environmental impacts. In addition, the reduced weight and size (per volume) of the package allows up to 70 percent more beer to be transported per pallet, significantly improving transport efficiencies. The package is also designed to be easily disassembled for disposal and recycling.

A large molded handle in the top of the package make it easy to handle and store. The collapsible nature of the design also uses less storage space as the product is dispensed and provides consumers with a new and more enjoyable experience.

There is potential for the package to be implemented in a range of production scales. For small production numbers the package could be filled using existing keg-filling equipment (fitted with an adapter), this would allow a low cost packaging solution for small breweries who are currently unable to sell packaged beer (due to the high costs of bottling equipment). This method could also be used for market testing and validation before significant investment is made in the automation of large scale production by larger brewers.

We think airlines, in their constant search to reduce on-board weight, might also think the Kegless is a good way to serve beer and other carbonated beverages.

PS: Did someone mention cheaper beer?

Kegless is one of the stand-out entries in more than 300 designs entered in the Australian Design Awards - James Dyson Awards.

Is this real????

 

[Revvy]

I was looking for this when I stumbled upon the other.

There’s nothing like kicking back with a cold bottle of beer on, well, any day really. But if Beverage Pouch Group LLC has its way, you may soon be sipping your favorite artisanal ale from a plastic pouch. The BeerPaQ CarboPouch line of beverage packs looks like something astronauts might use to pack their brewskies on the Interational Space Station, but the manufacturer says they are an ideal container for small craft breweries and micro brewers.

CarboPouches look similar to the juice or milk pouches currently on the market. Unlike juice or milk pouches, the CarboPounch container is strong enough, and flexible enough, to hold beer or other carbonated beverages.

Most big brewers sell their beer in glass bottles or aluminum cans. But for small craft breweries and micro brewers, bottles and cans have a few drawbacks including price and handling issues.

Bottles weigh a lot and can break easily, which makes them harder to ship. They also let in light, which damages the beer over time. The filling process for bottles leaves an airspace between the bottle cap and the beer. This air can eventually interact with the beer and affect the flavor. Most beer drinkers prefer bottles, but aluminum cans have some advantages over glass. Cans block light and are not as fragile, however the flavor-barrier lining inside beer cans can degrade over time and affect the quality of the beer. To top it off, few small brewers can afford a canning operation.

The Beverage Pouch Group says the advantages of the BeerPaQ CarboPouch include lighter weight and smaller storage size (when empty). The CarboPouch also blocks light and prevents any air from contacting the beer. The filling process does not leave any headspace so only the natural CO2 from the beer is in the pouch, which has been designed with some “give” to accommodate carbonation. CarboPouches also feature an “orangoleptic film” liner to protect the flavor of the beer.

The CarboPouch does not require a bottling line or canning line apparatus. Filling can be done manually or using automated equipment to accommodate the scale of the brewing operation. Unlike bottles and cans however, storage and shelf-life does require refrigeration.

CarboPouches pack small when they are empty for easier storage at the brewing plant, and for easier clean up on a picnic or at a sporting event. CarboPouches won’t shatter like glass, which is another advantage at sporting events or other public occasions.

BeerPaQ CarboPouches are available in three capacities: the Single25 holds 8oz (.24l), the Single45 holds 16oz (.47l), and the StandUp Multi64 holds 64oz (1.8l ).

For pricing and other information visit Beverage Pouch Group LLC.

 

[SPLASTiK]

all the Alaskan Brewery beers have twist-offs

Just the 12oz bottles... but this week they announced to be making the switch to pry off!

 

[spearko520]

i just put mine in sandwich bags and tie those little tiny knots that i can never ever untie...

 

[DGibb]

This is a semi sarcastic post but since I started brewing I have stopped drinking beers that have twist off tops on them. Seems like such a waste now.
Anybody else have this affliction?

No way! I get a dime a bottle (I live in Michigan), and it gives me some extra cash to get the good beer that I can drink, strip, then use for bottling!

 

[aubiecat]

No way! I get a dime a bottle (I live in Michigan), and it gives me some extra cash to get the good beer that I can drink, strip, then use for bottling!

We don't have bottle deposit down here.

 

[spearko520]

We don't have bottle deposit down here.

around here, - no one wants the hassle of returnables anymore either, and no one has them to buy for the deposit...

 

[ajbram]

I have nothing against twist-offs; I use them for 95% or more of my bottles.

Having said that, I carry a bottle opener with me at all times--to SWMBO's chagrin!

I have one of these too. The fact that it's titanium means it won't get scratched by the cap, and SWMBO doesn't have to worry.

 

[metaltim]

The one statement made in this thread that I thought was funny was saying people don't want to have to carry around a bottle openers. The watch band with the bottle opener kind of blew that one away.

hah laughable.. so everyone is going to wear the same watch?

What about those of us that wear a, you know, professional looking one

and the fact that I have had numerous chipped, cracked or improperly sealed twisties, but never a problem with a pry-off (although that's probably more of a brewery problem than an inherent bottle problem).

I'm the opposite, i've never had a problem with a twisty, but have had the neck break on pry offs.

anyway, I use my college ring. Never have to worry about it. But I'm definitely not 'above' drinking a twist off (I come across many craft brews that are twist off, you can plainly see once you open the first one), and I think the idea of 'banning' them is kind of silly. Ban them for what? You can use an opener on a twisty, so it shouldn't affect you anyway.
If you're really in a pinch.. take a look around, a piece of paper is all you need.

 

[ajbram]

hah laughable.. so everyone is going to wear the same watch?

What about those of us that wear a, you know, professional looking one

I guess you guys don't get to go SCUBA diving for a living .... bummer

 

[metaltim]

Conveniently the watch isn't permanently attached to the wrist.

 

[aubiecat]

hah laughable.. so everyone is going to wear the same watch?

What about those of us that wear a, you know, professional looking one

That watch band was just an example and I don't even wear a watch. We are pretty much surrounded by bottle openers.

I'm the opposite, i've never had a problem with a twisty, but have had the neck break on pry offs.

anyway, I use my college ring. Never have to worry about it. But I'm definitely not 'above' drinking a twist off (I come across many craft brews that are twist off, you can plainly see once you open the first one), and I think the idea of 'banning' them is kind of silly. Ban them for what? You can use an opener on a twisty, so it shouldn't affect you anyway.
If you're really in a pinch.. take a look around, a piece of paper is all you need.

The point of the thread wasn't about banning twist offs. It was a sarcastic take on my state of mind right now due to the fact that I need more bottles.
I am only drinking beer that comes in pry off bottles till I get enough bottles.
I don't have a problem with twist offs.

 

[maffewl]

Pry-offs > Twist-offs

Bring it. :cross:

 

[aubiecat]

I guess you guys don't get to go SCUBA diving for a living .... bummer

Ha Ha, you just reminded me that my scuba knife has a bottle opener on it. :rockin:

 

[ajbram]

Ha Ha, you just reminded me that my scuba knife has a bottle opener on it. :rockin:

On the last day I was in the field in Biscayne National Park (FL) we filled up Camelbaks with beer and took them down under our BCs. The pressure at 40ft. is enough to keep it from foaming up a whole lot, but not so much to push it out through the bite valve. Ice cold beer underwater with reef scenery all around when the water is 85 and the air temp is 95+ is a beautiful thing. My dive knife also has a bottle opener on it.

 

[LTownLiquorPig]

Um, there are quite a few CRAFT brews that use, or at one time used twist offs, including about half of the bombers in the Lagunitus line, Founder's has a few 12 ouncers including Centennial Ipa, Dieu Du Ciel, Sierra Nevada (including bigfoot), Tyranena, Allagash White, Goose Island, Saint Arnold, Rahr & Sons, Sprecher, Southern Tier, Summit, Blue Point, Unibroue's 12 oz, Shipyard Pugsley's Select series 22oz bottles are twist off, Otter Creek has a couple, the Point Whole Hog Series, Boulevard's 12oz stubby bottles, everything by full sail, Péché Morte, Capital Brewery, Avery has twist off caps, at least on Maharaja, lost coast, Session Lager and all the Alaskan Brewery beers have twist-offs and that's just off the top of my head....


So what's this about "Ignorant Bmc drinkers?"

Boy, if I stopped buying beers that came in twist offs, I'd be missing out on some hellacious beers.

The 2 main craft beers in Nova Scotia sell their 341ml bottles in 6's of twist offs. They're 500ml and 650ml bottles are pop top though, and I don't complain about having to drink bigger bottles to get a bottle collection going.

Also, there is an Israeli made assault rifle, called a Galil I believe (COD Black Ops) that has, or had a built in bottle opener. They found that the militiamen/women of Israel were damaging them by prying open bottles in the field, so they incorporated a bottle opener into the design some how.

"The weapon features a bottle opener and wire cutter built into the bipod. The bottle opener feature was included to prevent damage to magazines being used to open bottles, due to the large civilian reservist components of the IDF."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil

 

[bigljd]

I guess you guys don't get to go SCUBA diving for a living .... bummer

I used to - I was a dive instructor in Grand Cayman for a year, until hurricane Ivan leveled the place and I had to move on to other things.

Edit: I tried drinking champagne under water in the ocean before at an underwater 'wedding' in Cozumel (it was an unofficial wedding, they had gotten married in a real wedding before the trip). We all had scuba gear on, and we'd take out our regulator and drink from the bottle at about 25'. Didn't work so well though - it got sea water in it and tasted pretty bad. It made for good pictures though.

Not sure what any of this has to do with twist tops, but I thought it was a fun story.

 

[BrewMU]

If anything, the latest trend is putting everything into cans. Cans are CHEAPER for the brewery and keep beer FRESHER LONGER than bottles.

So be careful what you wish for, your favorite brewery might quit using bottles all together!

They won't sell them to me. I don't buy the store-light issue - if that's what it is, why not use packaging that covers the bottles?
They are doing it only because it's cheaper, but the prices don't reflect that. It's a scam that will only work if craft beer drinkers are suckers. I'm not, so I say #%@ $10 six packs of cans. Fresher longer? My beer doesn't sit around for weeks, so I don't care if cans keep fresher longer. Besides, there was a thread a couple of weeks ago about BOTTLED beer brewed for an arctic expedition from the 1800s. Still beer. How many homebrewers put their barleywines in cans? Thus ends the rant.

 

[SPLASTiK]

How many homebrewers put their barleywines in cans?

I would if it could be done at a comparable price...

 

[Lunchtime]

They won't sell them to me. I don't buy the store-light issue - if that's what it is, why not use packaging that covers the bottles?
They are doing it only because it's cheaper, but the prices don't reflect that. It's a scam that will only work if craft beer drinkers are suckers. I'm not, so I say #%@ $10 six packs of cans. Fresher longer? My beer doesn't sit around for weeks, so I don't care if cans keep fresher longer. Besides, there was a thread a couple of weeks ago about BOTTLED beer brewed for an arctic expedition from the 1800s. Still beer. How many homebrewers put their barleywines in cans? Thus ends the rant.

Or they realize places like the beach/lakes/waterparks and other areas don't allow glass of any kind. When I go on a float-trip I love that I don't have to get cans of budweiser. I can actually bring a solid beer with me. Your rant is pure rage and no logic.

 

[Revvy]

How many homebrewers put their barleywines in cans?

If the minimum buy in for cans was reduced even further than it was for the craft beer industry, say 500 instead of 10,000 units, or even better enough for a single batch of beer at a time, AND a canning line were introduced to homebrewers for a price that didn't require a second mortgage to own, you bet your bippie homebrewers would put their barleywines and everything else in it.

That's why craft breweries started canning in the last 5 years or so, they canning companies reduced the minimum buy in of the cans from like a million units minimum, to iirc 10,000- realize that as opposed to bottles where labels are attached the entire can is the label...the artwork is put on during the manufacturing of the can, so the cannery or can company does that as well as providing the cans and the canning machines. So when they were willing to start doing smaller scale jobs, the micros have jumped on board, wholeheartedly.

We've been discussing this on here for YEARS, and the consensus is, whether you like it or not, if homebrewers could can (both keggers who bottle and bottlers) for a reasonable price, and especially if there were a way to re-use them, whether you like it or not, a LOT of homebrewers would.

And so would have Allsopps back in the 1800's if the technology and the quality of the cans were what it is now....

You can't use the argument of arctic ale, they wouldhave if they could have....

 

[spearko520]

old yogurt containers... - that's where it's at... oh and those cans the minced clams come in... anything to keep the cats out of the trash!

 

[CthulhuDreaming]

I guess I'll just go ahead and point out that not everyone wants to carry around bottle openers.

Who needs a bottle opener when you have one of these?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

The point of the thread wasn't about banning twist offs. I

actually, i believe the thread was titled 'should we pass a law against twist offs?' or something to that effect. maybe i read it wrong.

just saying'

It's a scam that will only work if craft beer drinkers are suckers. I'm not, so I say #%@ $10 six packs of cans. Fresher longer? My beer doesn't sit around for weeks, so I don't care if cans keep fresher longer.

really? that's your stance, cans are a scam for suckers?

Who needs a bottle opener when you have one of these?

no man, don't you get it? twist offs are the bane of all beer. real beer drinkers use pry offs and open them with nothing but their teeth.

from now on, i'm only drinking beer that's packaged like ^this^, marketed by half naked sales girls riding frozen steam trains, at least quintuple hops brewed, and of course, beechwood aged.

no, really, who the $%@& cares how your beer is packaged?! i thought what mattered was what hit the glass.

 

[chainsawpancake]

i like the fact that the good beer out there is pry. separates us from them

 

[CthulhuDreaming]

no man, don't you get it? twist offs are the bane of all beer. real beer drinkers use pry offs and open them with nothing but their teeth.

Meh, I shoot the tops off with my .44.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

i like the fact that the good beer out there is pry. separates us from them

you from who? i'll bite my tongue on my opinion as to the answer.

do you really think the package matters?

have you ever had 21st Amendment? or Sierra Nevada, or New Belgium? or Surly? how about Alaskan, Schell's, Summit, GI, do those ring a bell? all those are canned and/or in twist offs....

Meh, I shoot the tops off with my .44.

pu$$y, i use nothing smaller that a .50 cal for bottle opening. go big or go the f#@k home, i always say!

 

[spearko520]

i like the fact that the good beer out there is pry. separates us from them

do you mean the C.H.U.D.s?
because i was a wondrin....
(that and the cannabilism, the humanoid- ness, and the underground dwelling- it's so hard to tell these days...)

 

[thatjonguy]

If the minimum buy in for cans was reduced even further than it was for the craft beer industry, say 500 instead of 10,000 units, AND a canning line were introduced to homebrewers for a price that didn't require a second mortgage to own, you bet your bippie homebrewers would put their barleywines and everything else in it.

That's why craft breweries started canning in the last 5 years or so, they canning companies reduced the minimum buy in of the cans from like a million units minimum, to iirc 10,000- realize that as opposed to bottles where labels are attached the entire can is the label...the artwork is put on during the manufacturing of the can, so the cannery or can company does that as well as providing the cans and the canning machines. So when they were willing to start doing smaller scale jobs, the micros have jumped on board, wholeheartedly.

We've been discussing this on here for YEARS, and the consensus is, whether you like it or not, if homebrewers could can (both keggers who bottle and bottlers) for a reasonable price, and especially if there were a way to re-use them, whether you like it or not, a LOT of homebrewers would.

And so would have Allsopps back in the 1800's if the technology and the quality of the cans were what it is now....You can't use the argument of arctic ale, they wouldhave if they could have....

As of July 2011, the minimum printed can order from Ball was around 135,000 cans of ONE design. I can get the prices for lids and cans out if you guys are interested. And don't forget freight for the cans and lids, storage for all those empty cans (24 pallets worth of one design) and the canning line itself which is much more expensive than a bottling line.

Maybe cheaper in the long run for an established regional brewery but canning for a small or start up brewery would kill them unless the owners have several million dollars laying around and seem to be allergic to profits.