serve and ferment from keg?

[greywolf]

I'm prepping my next brew and I want to serve out of the fermenting keg. I've trimmed the diptube 1". Built a spunding valve. What pressure do I set it at? Not doing a dry hop. Will use fermcap. I'm sure that there are things I don't know yet, but educate me. I like the sound of less labor from fermenter to kegerator. Planning for 4.5 gal in keg.

 

[greywolf]

Fermenting went perfectly. Transferred in keezer and hooked up gas Tried to sneak a sample and plugged everything up. opened keg and put a floating dip tub setup in( plan ahead and don't do it this way ). Sealed it all up and purged 10 times. Now pours perfectly. Great hops aroma and flavor. Kept the spunding valve at 15lbs.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Nice! Beer looks great!
My past 20 or so batches have been fermented in kegs, and I always sneak a few pints off each one before transferring to a serving keg. It's always really tasty beer. For most of my American style ales (cleaners, not wanting yeast flavours) I start the ferment open (PRV propped open), then set spunding to 10psi for the bulk of the ferment, closing to 20psi towards the end. This seems to give about the right carbonation by the time it's transferred to serving keg, but may be a little over if serving straight from the fermenting keg.
The only time I've had it plug up was a dry-hopped APA. I normally rack off all of the break material and hop residue though, so the wort into the fermenting vessel is clean and clear (mainly because I reuse yeast cake).

 

[greywolf]

Thanks for the tips. Im impressed with how simple the process and fresh tasting the beer is. Starting another one tomorrow.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

It definitely tastes fresher - no way for oxygen to get in after the start of fermentation. It has been one of the biggest improvements to my beer quality in years - probably next after fermentation temp control.

 

[TechFanMD]

So you literally served out of the fermenting keg - as in the trub/yeast/etc is still in there at the bottom? (not speaking against this - just asking)

 

[McKnuckle]

Here’s a pic of my latest Pilsner fermented in and served from the same keg. I’ve got a Clear Beer Draught System installed. Thing of beauty!

 

[carvetop]

I recently switched to 4.5G batches fermented in a keg using the clear beer draught system. Absolutely loving it. IPAs are brewed and served out of the same keg. Best I’ve made in 6 years of brewing.

 

[day_trippr]

The cbds is attractive, but how does one deal with the concept when one has 16 kegs in rotation with six on tap at any time?
Being O2 phobic I can't see opening a keg post-fermentation to install the cbds, so does that mean I'm looking at buying 16 of the things?

Cheers!

 

[applescrap]

Awesome, subscribed. I have been pondering this method for a while. Any tips on spunding valve build.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Awesome, subscribed. I have been pondering this method for a while. Any tips on spunding valve build.

Try one of these if you can get hold of it. Only $15 in in Australia
https://www.kegland.com.au/blowtie-diaphragm-spunding-valve-adjustable-pressure-relief-valve.html
but I'm not sure if you can get them over there. They are cheap and work perfectly.

 

[McKnuckle]

Being O2 phobic I can't see opening a keg post-fermentation to install the cbds, so does that mean I'm looking at buying 16 of the things?

I would think just 6, enough for the kegs on tap - but if you typically have other filled kegs waiting in the wings, then perhaps more.

Depending on what you brew, some don’t warrant them as much - like cloudy wheats or dark beers that will age (and clear, as much as they do) before serving.

No harm buying just a couple and testing ‘em out before making that decision.

 

[ghohn]

Simple is as simple does. This is the best 5 dollars I've ever spent on brewing. It's already set at 10 psi so there's no tinkering or guess work with a coarsely threaded spunding valve. 10psi will get you about half of your carbonation. Otherwise, with this in-line regulator submerged in water, pull the valve off entirely when you trickle down to a bubble every 3 seconds and you'll end up with nearly full carbonated beer.

In line check valve

 

[BeerFst]

Nice! Beer looks great!
My past 20 or so batches have been fermented in kegs, and I always sneak a few pints off each one before transferring to a serving keg. It's always really tasty beer. For most of my American style ales (cleaners, not wanting yeast flavours) I start the ferment open (PRV propped open), then set spunding to 10psi for the bulk of the ferment, closing to 20psi towards the end. This seems to give about the right carbonation by the time it's transferred to serving keg, but may be a little over if serving straight from the fermenting keg.
The only time I've had it plug up was a dry-hopped APA. I normally rack off all of the break material and hop residue though, so the wort into the fermenting vessel is clean and clear (mainly because I reuse yeast cake).

What are you doing for beers with yeast flavors? Leaving spund off entirely?

I do the same thing as you, start with blowoff and then spund towards the end. If I’m doing an neipa I will spund when I put the first dry hops in around 48-72 hours. The only time I’ve had poor ester expression was with voss kviek, that thing seemed to tear thru the wort in 12 hours, so I added the spund but didn’t get as much orange as I wanted from the yeast. I did underpitch that one but not as small as Lars suggests

 

[whovous]

Delete

 

[whovous]

Try one of these if you can get hold of it. Only $15 in in Australia
https://www.kegland.com.au/blowtie-diaphragm-spunding-valve-adjustable-pressure-relief-valve.html
but I'm not sure if you can get them over there. They are cheap and work perfectly.

$15 in the US as well. I know nothing about the vendor. https://www.williamsbrewing.com/BlowTie-Diaphragm-Spunding-Valve-P4686.aspx

 

[McKnuckle]

Otherwise, with this in-line regulator submerged in water, pull the valve off entirely when you trickle down to a bubble every 3 seconds and you'll end up with nearly full carbonated beer.

So you just hook this up to your blow-off tube at the far end, and place the check valve physically in your water/Star-San? Then when it slows down to roughly the rate you state, remove the blow-off and she's good to go?

 

[Veets]

Simple is as simple does. This is the best 5 dollars I've ever spent on brewing. It's already set at 10 psi so there's no tinkering or guess work with a coarsely threaded spunding valve. 10psi will get you about half of your carbonation. Otherwise, with this in-line regulator submerged in water, pull the valve off entirely when you trickle down to a bubble every 3 seconds and you'll end up with nearly full carbonated beer.

That's intriguing. How many batches have you used it on? Or is this just theoretical right now and you plan to use it?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

What are you doing for beers with yeast flavors? Leaving spund off entirely?

Leave spund off until the ferment is about 4 to 8 points from finished.

 

[WBB]

Ok, I’m still drawing a blank. Somebody explain this process.

So I make my wort and cool to pitching temp and transfer to sanitized 5 gallon corny keg. Pitch yeast, seal it up, pop the PRV to always open and put a sounding valve on the gas in post. Ferment as normal. How do you take a gravity reading? Least of my confusion. Fermentation is done, close PRV, keep sounding valve on and cold crash? What about all the trub? Isn’t that going to get sucked up and clog the liquid out tube and post resulting in having to open the keg and introducing O2?

What am I missing?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

So I make my wort and cool to pitching temp and transfer to sanitized 5 gallon corny keg.

Yep.

Pitch yeast, seal it up, pop the PRV to always open and put a sounding valve on the gas in post.

There's no point having the PRV open and a spunding valve on (I'm assuming 'spunding' is autocorrecting to 'sounding'). Use a spunding valve to ferment under pressure, or PRV open for non pressure ferment. Either way, you need to spunding valve with PRV closed for at least the last few points of gravity to get carbonation.

Ferment as normal. How do you take a gravity reading?

If the ferment is under pressure, you connect a tap to the liquid out, as per serving beer from a keg.

Fermentation is done, close PRV, keep sounding valve on and cold crash?

As previous, PRV needs to be closed before fermentation is done. Cold crash whenever you're ready to.

What about all the trub? Isn’t that going to get sucked up and clog the liquid out tube and post resulting in having to open the keg and introducing O2?

You can cut/bend the liquid tube to leave behind the bottom litre or two in the keg, avoiding most of the trub, or just suck up trub accepting that the first pint or three will be trub-ey. It doesn't clog the dip tube unless there's hop residue (which gets stuck in the poppet).

 

[applescrap]

Simple is as simple does. This is the best 5 dollars I've ever spent on brewing. It's already set at 10 psi so there's no tinkering or guess work with a coarsely threaded spunding valve. 10psi will get you about half of your carbonation. Otherwise, with this in-line regulator submerged in water, pull the valve off entirely when you trickle down to a bubble every 3 seconds and you'll end up with nearly full carbonated beer.

In line check valve

View attachment 615265

Thanks so much. Seems perfect.

 

[applescrap]

Try one of these if you can get hold of it. Only $15 in in Australia
https://www.kegland.com.au/blowtie-diaphragm-spunding-valve-adjustable-pressure-relief-valve.html
but I'm not sure if you can get them over there. They are cheap and work perfectly.

Thanks. I will check it out.

 

[applescrap]

Ok, I’m still drawing a blank. Somebody explain this process.

So I make my wort and cool to pitching temp and transfer to sanitized 5 gallon corny keg. Pitch yeast, seal it up, pop the PRV to always open and put a sounding valve on the gas in post. Ferment as normal. How do you take a gravity reading? Least of my confusion. Fermentation is done, close PRV, keep sounding valve on and cold crash? What about all the trub? Isn’t that going to get sucked up and clog the liquid out tube and post resulting in having to open the keg and introducing O2?

What am I missing?

I know its awesome right. What you are missing is and I dont know actually but I trust who I heard this from, you bend the tube up or nip it. The idea I assume is lower oxyen ingress and natural carbonation. My interest is for oxygen reasons.

 

[greywolf]

I tried this as a way to minimize oxygen exposure. The carbonation is a bonus at no cost. Less work,too. Win all around. So far impressed. I'm already planning convert the remaining kegs to floating dip tubes.

 

[day_trippr]

I would think just 6, enough for the kegs on tap - but if you typically have other filled kegs waiting in the wings, then perhaps more.

Depending on what you brew, some don’t warrant them as much - like cloudy wheats or dark beers that will age (and clear, as much as they do) before serving.

No harm buying just a couple and testing ‘em out before making that decision.

Well, the week before Thanksgiving I had all 16 kegs with beer in them - 6 on tap, 6 fully carbed, and four starting the cold-carb conditioning. That's been a thing for the last ~5 years to keep up with the boys and their spousal units and extended family and friends when everyone converges here over the holidays.

But...three of those were my big ass stout, two were kolsches and two were 'Murrican wheats - none hopped post-pitch, so it's possible I could get away with maybe shortened Out dip tubes for those. $10 vs $40 is compelling

The rest were neipas, and I reckon those would be the ones for the cbds. Even then I'm looking at almost $400

Cheers!

 

[greywolf]

I rigged my own DIY float system. Swapped out the dip tube for gas tube, silicone tubing, wine filter on the end, and zip tied a ss float to the filter. Spent maybe 5-6 bucks.

 

[BeerFst]

I know its awesome right. What you are missing is and I dont know actually but I trust who I heard this from, you bend the tube up or nip it. The idea I assume is lower oxyen ingress and natural carbonation. My interest is for oxygen reasons.

If you have the bent corny dip tube you can also use a straight “firestone” one cut down ever so slightly. This also lets you use the Utah bio diesel 300um filter from janish on the dip tube.

 

[ghohn]

That's intriguing. How many batches have you used it on? Or is this just theoretical right now and you plan to use it?

I've been doing this for years on my non-big beers. I see absolutely no reason to go back to 'regular' fermenters.

So you just hook this up to your blow-off tube at the far end, and place the check valve physically in your water/Star-San? Then when it slows down to roughly the rate you state, remove the blow-off and she's good to go?

Correct. Putting the in-line valve in water serves as a better read on the ferment than just a solid 'hiss'. The only thing I would advise is underfilling your keg slightly. Using fermcap-s under pressure helps out quite a bit to keep the krausen down. I've even pulled the short gas stubby and went with a square style dip tube o-ring to give me that extra inch of headspace. All bets are off when dealing with London Ale 3 or German Ale yeast. Give them a wide berth!

 

[greywolf]

So why leave the spunding valve off for the majority of fermentation. I just did this with it set at 10 lbs. raised to 15 for last week. Seems well done. Am I missing something? Had no blowoff and was pretty well carbed at end.

 

[BeerFst]

So why leave the spunding valve off for the majority of fermentation. I just did this with it set at 10 lbs. raised to 15 for last week. Seems well done. Am I missing something? Had no blowoff and was pretty well carbed at end.

You can put it on early but the main concern is what you seem to have avoided, clogging.

Second potential problem is limiting esters. This could be good in a lager of course so you might not need to ferment cold by fermenting under pressure (warm lager thread not withstanding). But could be a problem for a more expressive yeast.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

In my limited experience, and only anecdotally, I've noticed that pressurised ferments are a bit slower. They also (as BeerFst said) limit ester production. So for a pale lager, I ferment closed (spunded) from the start with a BIG pitch of yeast (I don't want esters). For an English Bitter, where I really like a fruty and minerally finish, I ferment open until the last few points. The same for a hefeweizen. For American ales, I let them get a good start then close off at the start of high-krausen.

 

[brewman !]

I rigged my own DIY float system.

Pics of your DIY float system ? I'm thinking of setting up unitanks too.

 

[greywolf]

Pretty simple design but here it is.

used a stainless screw eye to attach zipper tie to filter.

 

[brewman !]

What are the dimensions of the float ? Where did you get the filter ?


Is that PVC hose ? Is it stiff ?


I was testing floats this weekend.

 

[greywolf]

got my inspiration here-------- http://think.gusius.com/diy-keg-floating-dip-tube/--------the hole in float is too large so I rigged it differently. still works. Those are wine filters, come 10 to a pk. The tubing is silicone and is very flexible. Too flexible when you're trying to slip it onto the gas tube. You'll see what I mean. All told, the order from aliexpress took about a month to come in. You can probably beat that using amazon.

 

[brewman !]

He put the hose through the float. Why did you zip tie yours underneath ?

 

[greywolf]

I wanted to ensure the filter end of the tubing stays submerged. I didn't need to use the weights on the filter.

 

[BeerFst]

In my limited experience, and only anecdotally, I've noticed that pressurised ferments are a bit slower. They also (as BeerFst said) limit ester production. So for a pale lager, I ferment closed (spunded) from the start with a BIG pitch of yeast (I don't want esters). For an English Bitter, where I really like a fruty and minerally finish, I ferment open until the last few points. The same for a hefeweizen. For American ales, I let them get a good start then close off at the start of high-krausen.

Are you taking samples at a somewhat regular schedule or using a tilt or something like that? I will usually take a one or two looking for fg but unless I get lucky in my timing I’m either too early or too late.

 

[brewman !]

I wanted to ensure the filter end of the tubing stays submerged. I didn't need to use the weights on the filter.

Could you post a pic of your float assembly floating in water ? How low does it float such that he could put the hose through the middle instead of underneath ? How high does the float ride in water ?