Second all grain batch today

[Texas_Red]

So I have been brewing for a little over a year. I finally got a mash tun built and a new brew pot so I jumped into all grain a few weeks ago. My first batch (IPA) is still in the bottles carbing but pre bottling taste was very good.

My OG on my first batch was a little lower than the recipe said, but I know where I screwed up on that. So this time around it went in the opposite direction. Recipe said OG should be 1.054 and I ended up with 1.060. Here is the grain bill.

10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 77.28 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 7.73 %
10.6 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.10 %
8.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3.86 %
7.2 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3.48 %
5.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.55 %

Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
45 min Mash In Add 16.18 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F

Batch Sparge Round 1: Sparge with 0.66 gal of 168.0 F water
Batch Sparge Round 2: Sparge with 3.15 gal of 168.0 F water


So I ended up with a little more than 5 gallons (Recipe was for 5 gallons), maybe 5.25 after the boil, and an OG of 1.060. Does that mean my efficiency was above normal. Im still very new to all grain so still figuring things out.

 

[chickypad]

"Normal" when it comes to efficiency is a relative term. But you've got about 13 lb of grain there so 1.060 doesn't sound high, in fact probably a little lower than I would expect. Not sure what you had the software set to but 1.054 sounds really low.

 

[Stillraining]

I agree...My last batch was 1.051 on 9 lbs of grain.

 

[doug293cz]

So I have been brewing for a little over a year. I finally got a mash tun built and a new brew pot so I jumped into all grain a few weeks ago. My first batch (IPA) is still in the bottles carbing but pre bottling taste was very good.

My OG on my first batch was a little lower than the recipe said, but I know where I screwed up on that. So this time around it went in the opposite direction. Recipe said OG should be 1.054 and I ended up with 1.060. Here is the grain bill.

10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 77.28 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 7.73 %
10.6 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.10 %
8.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3.86 %
7.2 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3.48 %
5.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.55 %

Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
45 min Mash In Add 16.18 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F

Batch Sparge Round 1: Sparge with 0.66 gal of 168.0 F water
Batch Sparge Round 2: Sparge with 3.15 gal of 168.0 F water


So I ended up with a little more than 5 gallons (Recipe was for 5 gallons), maybe 5.25 after the boil, and an OG of 1.060. Does that mean my efficiency was above normal. Im still very new to all grain so still figuring things out.

With that grain bill and strike/sparge volumes, you could have maxed out at 1.070 - 1.072. That would have required your conversion efficiency to be better than 95%, and your lauter efficiency to be 83 - 84% for a mash efficiency of 79 - 83% (mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency.) Assuming you stirred well prior to each run off, your lauter efficiency should be close to the predicted. So, in order to get an OG of 1.060, your conversion efficiency works out to about 81%, and a mash efficiency of about 68%. This is quite low, as conversions better than 95% are routinely achieved by homebrewers. The preceding analysis assumes there were no trub losses to get you to your 5.5 post-boil volume, and the analysis indicates that there couldn't have been much.

Brew on

 

[Texas_Red]

So I guess I still have some work to do. So what tips can I use to raise my efficiency? I will go through my steps.

Preheated my mash tun.

Added 4 gallons 170 deg water to mash tun.

Added grains while wife stirred.

Checked temp of mash and it was at 157.

Mashed for 45 min.

Sparged with 168 deg water until I had about 6.25 gallons. (Wort was not clear at this point but stopped as I didnt want to have too much volume before boil)

 

[doug293cz]

So I guess I still have some work to do. So what tips can I use to raise my efficiency? I will go through my steps.

Preheated my mash tun.

Added 4 gallons 170 deg water to mash tun.

Added grains while wife stirred.

Checked temp of mash and it was at 157.

Mashed for 45 min.

Sparged with 168 deg water until I had about 6.25 gallons. (Wort was not clear at this point but stopped as I didnt want to have too much volume before boil)

First two things to try are crushing finer, and/or mashing longer. The limiting step in saccharification (starch to sugar conversion) is gelatinization (the starch absorbing lots of water and becoming soluble.) Gelatinization proceeds from the surface of the grits towards the center. The larger the grits, the longer gelatinization takes. You cannot get complete conversion until all the starch is completely gelatinized. With very fine crushes, conversion can be complete in much less than 30 minutes, but this requires grits of corn meal size or smaller. So, if you can't crush finer, then longer mashes are your only realistic option. Longer times may not be a complete solution, as if too many of the enzymes get denatured prior to completion, more time will not give more conversion.

Brew on

 

[pricelessbrewing]

First two things to try are crushing finer, and/or mashing longer. The limiting step in saccharification (starch to sugar conversion) is gelatinization (the starch absorbing lots of water and becoming soluble.) Gelatinization proceeds from the surface of the grits towards the center. The larger the grits, the longer gelatinization takes. You cannot get complete conversion until all the starch is completely gelatinized. With very fine crushes, conversion can be complete in much less than 30 minutes, but this requires grits of corn meal size or smaller. So, if you can't crush finer, then longer mashes are your only realistic option. Longer times may not be a complete solution, as if too many of the enzymes get denatured prior to completion, more time will not give more conversion.

Brew on

Great reply, very well phrased doug. Going to add that post as a reference to my article. I've always found gelatinization to be the limiting factor on conversion rate as well, and have not been a fan of the enzyme concentration model.

For more info texas, you can read my blog post on the subject. In particular check the useful measurements section so that by obtaining three sets of data you can completely calculate your system and all of it's variables so that you can consistently hit your volumes, and gravities every time (+- 2 % or so IME)

 

[kombat]

OP, where did you get this recipe from? Is this supposed to be another IPA, and if not, what style is it supposed to be? What was your hopping schedule? What yeast pitching protocol did you follow?

 

[Texas_Red]

It is supposed to be an Amber Ale. I found it on line but dont remember exactly where. I copied the text to a local doc. I did plug the numbers into a spreadsheet calculator and I can definitely see that the OG number in the recipe was way off.

Hop schedule:
60 min 0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops
20 min 1.25 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (20 min) Hops

Yeast starter made with WLP036

I noticed something else that may have affected this. With the recipe plugged into the BrewCipher spreadsheet, it says to sparge with 177F water. I sparged with 168F water. Do I need to sparge with the higher temp sparge water to bring the temp of the mash up to 168F? I also read that I probably sparged too quickly, I should have taken at least 30 min to sparge.

 

[chickypad]

If you are batch sparging the temp of the water doesn't really matter, and you can drain the runnings as fast as it will go, it won't affect your efficiency. The slow sparge is specifically for fly sparging. I would look elsewhere as doug laid out to target your efficiency issues.

Edit: I was going off the first post which said batch, but looks like you were actually fly sparging. You do want to watch out for channeling and going too fast then. braukaiser has stuff on troubleshooting efficiency and figuring out if it's a mash or lauter problem, and sounds like maybe priceless on his blog too.