Scottish ale and wort caramelization?

[the_ale_scale]

Is wort caramelization just a longer boil time? I've been trying to look it up but haven't really found a clear answer. Plz help

 

[SnakeRidge]

There is a lot of debate about how much 'caramelization' you can get in a large volume of wort. The best method I've used, is to catch the first 2qts-1gallon of first runnings in a pot and boil this separately. That way you can boil down quite a bit to get caramelization and then add back to the main wort.

Here's a little reading;

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/02/90-shilling-scottish-stout-recipe.html

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=181322

 

[Oginme]

To truly get kettle carmelization, you need to get the concentrated sugars at a temperature far above that of boiling wort. Like SnakeRidge said above, take a couple of quarts of your first runnings and boil that down to a syrup and your will get a good 'carmelization' effect. To me, it gives a certain mouth feel that you can't get otherwise.

 

[the_ale_scale]

Thx guys

 

[Qhrumphf]

While taking a few quarts and boiling down to a syrup is definitely the most effective way, what I like to do is simply collect my first runnings separate from the rest of the runnings, and boil them separately. The sparge runnings get boiled normally, but I boil the first runnings for several hours, reducing maybe 50-75% of the volume. Still gets a rich maltiness and impacts the mouthfeel, and also decreases the fermentability a little bit.

 

[ZebulonBrewer]

The wort carmelization you're looking for are actually maillard reactions in the wort, which is similar, but happens at our nice boiling temperature of ~212 degrees F. An interesting article I read on the effects can be found at this link http://www.homebrewdad.com/index.php?blogid=109

It's kind of an extreme example because its a) barleywine and b) more time than any of us really want to do. Realistically it's easier to do it like the guys mentioned above. I haven't done it myself, but I'll probably make a wee heavy or a strong scotch ale for the winter with the technique.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The wort carmelization you're looking for are actually maillard reactions in the wort, which is similar, but happens at our nice boiling temperature of ~212 degrees F. An interesting article I read on the effects can be found at this link http://www.homebrewdad.com/index.php?blogid=109

It's kind of an extreme example because its a) barleywine and b) more time than any of us really want to do. Realistically it's easier to do it like the guys mentioned above. I haven't done it myself, but I'll probably make a wee heavy or a strong scotch ale for the winter with the technique.

Long boils will lend maillard reactions. However, once you take wort and boil it down into a syrup as suggested above, the temperature can actually reach levels of caramelization.

 

[ZebulonBrewer]

Long boils will lend maillard reactions. However, once you take wort and boil it down into a syrup as suggested above, the temperature can actually reach levels of caramelization.

I was under the understanding that boiling it down just accelerated the reactions, and that carmelization temperatures weren't reached. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just not sure myself. If you are pretty certain of it, then I'll buy it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization

According to wikipedia, maltose begins to carmelize at 180C. I'd be interested in seeing temperature tracked as the wort is boiled down for a scottish ale/wee heavy.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I was under the understanding that boiling it down just accelerated the reactions, and that carmelization temperatures weren't reached. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just not sure myself. If you are pretty certain of it, then I'll buy it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization

According to wikipedia, maltose begins to carmelize at 180C. I'd be interested in seeing temperature tracked as the wort is boiled down for a scottish ale/wee heavy.

I would assume it all depends on how thick you boil. At the level of average wort, won't get even close. But as the wort gets thicker, the boiling point goes up. At normal gravities it's a fraction of a degree. At thick concentration, it goes up substantially.

Whether or not boiling a gallon of first runnings (1.080 or so assuming a normal water to grist ratio in the mash) boiled down to a quart (ie a gravity of 1.320) would be high enough I don't know. But if you were to keep going, eventually the temperature would get high enough to form actual caramel (not suggesting anyone goes that far). I'd be curious to see actual temperature too, but I'd bet you can make caramel out of LME if you want. Not suggesting anyone go that far, but the point is once you concentrate and the temp goes up, it's likely more than just the typical boiling maillard reactions happening. It's probably a range of both maillard and caramelization.

 

[djonesax]

Perhaps off-top but interesting. A friend of mine visited a brewery in Germany where they would toss extremely hot rocks into the wort, caramelizing the sugars. They later used the same rocks in a restaurant where patrons would cook pieces of steak on the rocks with the caramelized sugar residue. Bake some rocks to 500 degrees and toss them in

 

[Qhrumphf]

Perhaps off-top but interesting. A friend of mine visited a brewery in Germany where they would toss extremely hot rocks into the wort, caramelizing the sugars. They later used the same rocks in a restaurant where patrons would cook pieces of steak on the rocks with the caramelized sugar residue. Bake some rocks to 500 degrees and toss them in

I have heard of this Steinbier. I'd be curious to try some. But not about to go making it.

 

[djonesax]

Cool thanks for the actually style of beer, I couldn't remember what it was. In case anyone is interested...

Pronunciation guide for English-speakers:
"Shteyne-beer"

Definition:
Steinbier means "stone beer" in German. It got its name from a technique of boiling wort in the brew kettle by dropping super-heated stones into the kettle. In the old days, many brew kettles were made of wood and obviously could not be direct-fired. The hot-stone method, therefore, was the only way the wort could be brought to a boil. Beer boiled this way also tasted different from "normal" beer, because the rocks, when dropped into the brew, scorched and caramelized some of the malt sugars. The result was a smokey-tasting deposit that literally sugar-coated the rocks.

Once the beer was strained from the brew kettle into the fermenter and had cooled down, the coated rocks were removed from the kettle, too, and dropped into the fermenting beer. There, the yeast made short shrift of the sugar coating. The result was a beer with a pleasantly smoky flavour and a slightly sweet, malt-candy-like finish. Steinbiers are now very rare indeed, because few breweries bother with this labor-intensive and dangerous method of beer-making. In the old days, many Steinbiers were brewed as ales, but nowadays, they are all lagers. Perhaps the best known of these is the Rauchenfelser Steinbier, which is occasionally avilable in North America.

 

[Arrheinous]

I've gone as far as 2G -> 1 pint in a separate pot. By that point it will wrap around the spoon and you might as well throw the pot and spoon into the main boil.

 

[Calichusetts]

I do this fairly often...and a few different ways. One way is by boiling the first runnings down to caramel, add some wort to the pan to make it easy to transfer back to your pot. Great results with this though my beers tend to finish 1-2 points higher.

I almost always do long boils. Usually on purpose but I just upgraded my batch size and most of my equipment and have been pretty off so far with boil volumes. Last batch ended up being a 3 hour boil and I can tell you, you get similar results in terms of color and flavor compared to the caramelization of the first runnings. Again, slightly higher FG. Randy Mosher suggests a boil of a few hours as a decoction cheat for german styles.

Finally, the method I actually prefer is to take the final runnings (along with any runnings from squeezing the bag in my case) and caramelize this in a seperate pot. Virtually the same results as the above two methods but I find that I hit my FG.

Hope this helps