Sanke Fermenter Prototypes

[Bobby_M]

I really don't have time for new gadget development but I can't stop myself from drafting in CAD at 2am. What do you want to see in a Sanke fermenter kit that hasn't been done before? Here's what I have so far...

2" triclover flange with a nicely welded 1/2" half nipple and 18" long 7mm ID thermowell.

I wish I did the welds, pretty nice:

I figure at minimum you'd put your controller probe down the thermowell and then put one of the elbow barbs on top for a simple blowoff tube:

Something like this would be priced around $40.

Then you can get a little more fancy with pressure fermenting and transferring like this:

Basically you put a cross on there. The top port gets a 1/2" compression bore through fitting with a 24" x 1/2" stainless racking cane. I can imagine one port gets ball valve with blow off port (maybe a camlock so it could later double as a CO2 inlet for pressure transfers). The other side could get a 1/4" NPT reducer then to a tee for pressure gauge and spunding PRV.

What am I missing?

 

[kickflip_mj]

I really don't have time for new gadget development but I can't stop myself from drafting in CAD at 2am. What do you want to see in a Sanke fermenter kit that hasn't been done before? Here's what I have so far...

2" triclover flange with a nicely welded 1/2" half nipple and 18" long 7mm ID thermowell.

I wish I did the welds, pretty nice:

I figure at minimum you'd put your controller probe down the thermowell and then put one of the elbow barbs on top for a simple blowoff tube:

Something like this would be priced around $40.

Then you can get a little more fancy with pressure fermenting and transferring like this:

Basically you put a cross on there. The top port gets a 1/2" compression bore through fitting with a 24" x 1/2" stainless racking cane. I can imagine one port gets ball valve with blow off port (maybe a camlock so it could later double as a CO2 inlet for pressure transfers). The other side could get a 1/4" NPT reducer then to a tee for pressure gauge and spunding PRV.

What am I missing?

WOW this is awsome!!

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

I think the ability to transfer under pressure (oxygen free) is one of the best reasons to ferment in sanke kegs. It's why I'm moving in that direction. I like your solution, but for me the ideal setup would be a cap with ball lock liquid and gas posts attached. That way it would be just like fermenting in a big corny, you could use it as a keg as well, and everything would be low profile. I think I'm going to get some blanks and give it a shot with silver solder, I think the hard part will be finding the right size male threads....

But I always like seeing what you come up with next, and I would give something like this a shot over the current offerings.

 

[Bobby_M]

Whatever you do make sure you include a pressure relief valve.

 

[plumber_bob]

This is how I roll. Most times I start with a blow off.

You gotta remove the check valves first.

pb

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

Whatever you do make sure you include a pressure relief valve.

I was planning on just attaching a blow off tube to the gas side, like a lot if folks do with corny fermenters, but if it ever stopped up I guess I might be in trouble...

 

[Bobby_M]

I was planning on just attaching a blow off tube to the gas side, like a lot if folks do with corny fermenters, but if it ever stopped up I guess I might be in trouble...

The fear I'd have is if the gas QD were to come off or someone takes it off by accident not realizing you're fermenting and building pressure.. BOOM.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

I wouldn't ferment with the QD on, just a blow off tube on the male threads, when I'm ready transfer I'd put a sanitized QD on, hook up gas and transfer to purged serving keg.

I haven't looked much into spunding valves and pressurized fermenting, I just want to transfer under pressure with out worrying about the carboy cap hitting me in the face.

Anyway nothing's gonna happen until I order those TC parts, I'm getting the bottom drain keg setup, so I might as well get some extra blanks to drill on for my fermenter.

 

[maierhof]

I really don't have time for new gadget development but I can't stop myself from drafting in CAD at 2am. What do you want to see in a Sanke fermenter kit that hasn't been done before? Here's what I have so far...

2" triclover flange with a nicely welded 1/2" half nipple and 18" long 7mm ID thermowell.

I wish I did the welds, pretty nice:

I figure at minimum you'd put your controller probe down the thermowell and then put one of the elbow barbs on top for a simple blowoff tube:


Something like this would be priced around $40.

Then you can get a little more fancy with pressure fermenting and transferring like this:

Basically you put a cross on there. The top port gets a 1/2" compression bore through fitting with a 24" x 1/2" stainless racking cane. I can imagine one port gets ball valve with blow off port (maybe a camlock so it could later double as a CO2 inlet for pressure transfers). The other side could get a 1/4" NPT reducer then to a tee for pressure gauge and spunding PRV.

What am I missing?

Lol - now you ask... but I am glad you did.
I have been assembling the parts and testing this thing for over two months now.

It began when I saw the posts by wortmonger et al on pressure fermenting.
It became a reality when I came into a bunch of sankes:
2 5 gal franke
2 7.75 gal - 1 pony - 1 slim
1 13.5 gal
1 15.5 gal
When you combine that with my 3 cornys that I already owned, I realized that I needed a way to use the sankes as fermenters. Then I saw pickles selling his version of this up here and mine was born...

I had a hole drilled in a 2" tc cap large enough for a stainless cross to fit into it then had them welded. Then I had the threads removed from the end that was welded and had it polished up nicely. Like yours it pays to have it done by a pro - wow it looks great.

I would have bought your setup had you offered it.
Instead now I am out pocket far more than I would have liked... but the final product you can judge for yourself.
I will take some pics tomorrow hopefully. The timing of this post could not have been better as I just finished it.

IMHO what you are missing is the ability to attach a corny disconnect to it. I achieved that with
mcmaster part # 50675K162 Brass 37°Flared Tube Fitting, Straight Adapter for 1/4" Tube OD x 1/4 NPT Male @ $2.26
Northern brewer part # K168Adapter for Cornelius Keg Posts 1/4" FFL x 19/32"-182 @ $9.99
And an air corny post

 

[insanim8er]

I don't see the benefit of what you posted in the photos over using a coupler? Maybe the ease of removing it?

What I prefer is stainless, low profile, adjustable, and inexpensive.

Look at my sig link. It works awesome. The only thing that would make it better is if it were done in SS so there was no chance for any leaks through the rubber stopper.

Basically make a piece that fits right into the hole and a pin to keep the seal tight. You probably could design it so as you twist the unit it tightens down with no need for a pin.

A simple coat hanger allowed me to go over 15psi I didn't test until failure, but I bet it would go much higher.

I used the original plug but filled the hole with a rubber stopper like a gasket. If you could replicate that middle part in stainless it would be perfect.

I haven't thought of changing since it works well, but if the price was right I would because then I don't have to worry about the rubber leaking over time.

I addition, you should provide the option to use the same piece to convert a sankey into ball lock serving kegs. By keeping it low profile, 5 gallon sankey kegs could fit into small kegerators.

 

[maierhof]

I don't see the benefit of what you posted in the photos over using a coupler? Maybe the ease of removing it?
...

I haven't thought of changing since it works well, but if the price was right I would because then I don't have to worry about the rubber leaking over time.

I addition, you should provide the option to use the same piece to convert a sankey into ball lock serving kegs. By keeping it low profile, 5 gallon sankey kegs could fit into small kegerators.

I have seen your solution but have not had time to do it yet. Nicely done btw. Looking forward to doing that too since it will help me defray some of the cost of my stainless deluxe...

For me it was the ease of choosing to yeast harvest or just capture beer with an adjustable racking arm, plus the ability to swap the whole mess out at once and on to any almost any keg I wanted. The whole idea was maximum flexibility for me. I can even serve from it, if I wanted to. =;>

 

[Bobby_M]

...
IMHO what you are missing is the ability to attach a corny disconnect to it. I achieved that with
mcmaster part # 50675K162 Brass 37°Flared Tube Fitting, Straight Adapter for 1/4" Tube OD x 1/4 NPT Male @ $2.26
Northern brewer part # K168Adapter for Cornelius Keg Posts 1/4" FFL x 19/32"-182 @ $9.99
And an air corny post

Thanks for the reply. I'm aware of the NPT to Corny post adapters out there and I'm going that route if I can't design a one piece unit.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't see the benefit of what you posted in the photos over using a coupler? Maybe the ease of removing it?

What I prefer is stainless, low profile, adjustable, and inexpensive.

Look at my sig link. It works awesome. The only thing that would make it better is if it were done in SS so there was no chance for any leaks through the rubber stopper.

Basically make a piece that fits right into the hole and a pin to keep the seal tight. You probably could design it so as you twist the unit it tightens down with no need for a pin.

A simple coat hanger allowed me to go over 15psi I didn't test until failure, but I bet it would go much higher.

I used the original plug but filled the hole with a rubber stopper like a gasket. If you could replicate that middle part in stainless it would be perfect.

I haven't thought of changing since it works well, but if the price was right I would because then I don't have to worry about the rubber leaking over time.

I addition, you should provide the option to use the same piece to convert a sankey into ball lock serving kegs. By keeping it low profile, 5 gallon sankey kegs could fit into small kegerators.

That's some cool McGyvering and I see nothing wrong with the design or parts you used. My version is a bit shinier of course and caters to people who like that sort of thing. I also have the thermowell, but you can punch another hole in the stopper to duplicate that. Most of all, I really like the positive seal you get using a TC flange connection and dis assembly is very fast.

 

[insanim8er]

That's some cool McGyvering and I see nothing wrong with the design or parts you used. My version is a bit shinier of course and caters to people who like that sort of thing. I also have the thermowell, but you can punch another hole in the stopper to duplicate that. Most of all, I really like the positive seal you get using a TC flange connection and dis assembly is very fast.

Thanks... Ya it works great and I'm not worried about the parts I used. I just think a solid piece would be awesome because then there is no chance of air leaking between the stopper. That way ball lock connects could be added to convert it to a serving keg too.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Do a stainless slug and CC it to fit the keg, so 2" round. Use the kegs o ring to seal.

Have the locking "wings" CCed to where they gradually get thicker or higher. That way when it goes into the slots of the keg, you can twist it to self seal.

Then you can make it so it's customizable where you can make different attachments as add-ons.

People who want to convert a keg for serving can buy those parts. Those who want to Ferment can get those parts. And those who want both can get all the parts.

You could do 2 version—2 threaded holes and 3. Or only do 3 holes and sell a plug for those who don't want to buy thermowell attachments.

Different fittings can be screwed onto the slug. The liquid could be a racking cane bended or straight. It attaches by a compression fitting to be adjustable. Or you could even make an option for those who want a solid tube with out adjustability.

For gas you can screw a barb in. Or you can make ball lock attachments and the thermowell hole can be used to attach a relief valve. You can make quick disconnects for the gas part so those who want to swap a spunding valve with the o2 can do it with ease... Etc.

Plus the main part would be totally weldless. But idk how expensive a slug of stainless and CCed parts would be.

You can be known as the Burger King of keg fermenters... Everybody can have their way. Just kick me down a few for my kegs if you make it

 

[baer19d]

Where did you get those adaptors that replaced the hose barbs?

This is how I roll. Most times I start with a blow off.

You gotta remove the check valves first.

pb

 

[plumber_bob]

Where did you get those adaptors that replaced the hose barbs?

Quick search for tail piece at most online hbs will bring them up. They are 1/4" swivel nut adapters. All my keg connectors work with swivel nuts. Here is a sampler pack.

This setup makes my life way easier.

pb

 

[Ki-ri-n]

What valve did you use? I like your setup-clean & simple!

Thermowell for sure.
1 common length for a dip tube so you can cut down to your preferred size based on how much trub you leave?
Spunding valve option?

Anyone know off hand if you could still use a triclover on the plastic 1/6 barrel

Top of it is on the left.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't think TC clamps to the plastic necks..

Hey maierhof, where did you get that awesome stainless adjustable PRV? I looked for a few hours and didn't find any.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

How hard would it be to bend the steel racking cane through a tee (90*)?

I'm thinking attach the side opening to the TC (with the racking cane going into the keg), and have one side with the racking cane through your full port compression fitting maybe with a liquid ball lock QD as well, and the other side with a 1/2" NPT to 1/4" flare for a gas QD or a spunding valve setup. Anyway just an idea.

 

[maierhof]

Hey maierhof, where did you get that awesome stainless adjustable PRV? I looked for a few hours and didn't find any.

I did the same thing too - it is a MoreBeer part. They have them on their conical line.
D1830 - Gas Manifold - Brass Pressure Relief Valve is what came up on the invoice but it was stainless when I bought it in the store.
Then I asked for a link to purchase it online and it comes up as this:
http://morebeer.com/view_product/8175
D1830S - Stainless Gas Pressure Relief

Let me do you a favor and tell you that it is NOT a adjustable PRV. It is actually a pressure release valve designed only to bleed pressure from a transfer via keg to keg and NOT to keep pressure inside. (Why would someone make this part then stop short of making it flexible enough to handle both situations??!) I literally just found this out yesterday when someone mentioned it up here.
Apparently during my testing phase there was a slow leak and after a scientific process and lots of patience I was narrowing the field down.
I saw the post then jumped right to testing that piece by replacing it with a plug - the slow leak stopped. I have to find a replacement now... unless someone (calling all engineers!!) finds a work around to this sexy piece of stainless steel I am going to be getting the Grainger part probably.
This is a good post where he lays it all out... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/spunding-valve-construction-corny-keg-245337/

 

[vinylicious]

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[maierhof]

What valve did you use? I like your setup-clean & simple!

Thank you!

I am not sure I am following you on which valve, did you mean the adjustable pressure release valve - if so please see above this post...

Thermowell for sure.
1 common length for a dip tube so you can cut down to your preferred size based on how much trub you leave?
Spunding valve option?

Based on my system (side x side fridgenstein) I can run multiple batches at the same time so I find it easier to manage the temp in the box instead of through thermowells. If I find that this doesnt work though - I am building my own mill rig and cutting then welding it in there myself this time.

Yes - it is one length. I ended up missing the bottom on my first order and zach at ssbrewing was kind enough to swap it out.
It was a total of 27" from top of the angle to bottom. In retrospect I wish I had waited to order this exact size until the end after it was dry fit.

 

[vinylicious]

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[pickles]

I welded a thermowell and a cross to 2" cap and it worked great, I eventually sold it when I got my conical. For it I just welded a cross to the 1.5" cap, ran the thermowell in through the top since I no longer needed a racking cane.

 

[pickles]

Here is the sanke setup with spunding valve, pressure gauge, safety valve, and gas connector.

 

[maierhof]

Here is the sanke setup with spunding valve, pressure gauge, safety valve, and gas connector.

View attachment 175888

Ahah - I just realized that I had misspoke earlier when I said that it was sankepanke who gave me the idea - it was you Mr. Pickles, it was you.
I saw this pic and something just felt right when I looked at it. Such simplicity and flexibility all in one package - I knew I had to make one. Thank you for the idea!

It is no wonder that Bobby M is coming down this path too... it just makes so much sense to do it this way.

 

[pickles]

It made the most sense to me to have three ports. On the next one I'll forego the ball lock in favor of a small ball valve and a 1/4" male compression fitting. That way I can screw on the co2 line when needed or use it as a manual relief valve to release pressure when dumping yeast . That way I don't have to change the setting on the PRV. After dumping yeast I can close valve and the pressure will build to its previous setting.

Thanks for the compliment, but not credit needed I just expanded on what Brewers Hardware had already done.


Sent from

 

[maierhof]

It made the most sense to me to have three ports. On the next one I'll forego the ball lock some got in favor of a small ball valve and a 1/4" male compression fitting. That way I can screw on the co2 line when needed or use it as a manual relief valve to release pressure when dumping yeast .

That kind of flexibility is what drew me to this idea. I chose to do the racking arm in 1/2" though.
All I have to do is take the end of the ball valve and add a 1/2" to 1/4" reducer then put the 1/4" to compression flare on there and then it hooks into the air/beer lines.

 

[Bobby_M]

I wondered if I had already seen a system like this a long time ago that I subconsciously forgot about because I would have sworn I was just looking at the 2" bottom drain adapters and thought, aha... sanke fermenter. So many pioneers running around in this hobby that it's really hard to be original even when you think you are. Hmm, just to make them really cheap now..

I've been prototyping and experimenting with APRV? Adjustable Pressure Relief Valves built with off the shelf parts. The cheapest junk versions you'll find on Amazon and Mcmaster for around $5 use a circular seat and ball bearing valve. They leak in most of the adjustable range. It's good for not blowing up a compressor tank, but not for something we want to hold pressure indefinitely. The one with the big plastic knob for $13 is much better at holding pressure because the valve has an oring. I've tested using PTFE and MDPE balls for in tapered seats like flare fittings have and that doesn't work at all.

As much as I really do love stainless anything, it's probably not worth the R&D cost when the brass one that works is $13 because it won't touch your beer.

 

[robert843]

I cannot afford a connical right now and have a spare sanke. I am going to adopt Mr Pickles design. Have you had any problems with cleaning the keg after fermentation?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Photopilot]

I really like that design. I have been playing with insimin8er's cheap o design this week to crazy something to set serve this function. At a $40 price point I would buy two of these today. Let me know when they are available.

 

[pickles]

If it'd been available a year ago I would have purchased on. I certainly have more than $40 in parts and labor. There's definitely a market for it.

I don't have any issues cleaning it. I have a DIY keg washer but I know others just do a oxiclean or PBW soak.


Sent from

 

[jimyson]

Yet another great thread. Thanks for all of the ideas and another project on the plate.

 

[maierhof]

I cannot afford a connical right now and have a spare sanke. I am going to adopt Mr Pickles design. Have you had any problems with cleaning the keg after fermentation?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Home Brew mobile app

Just clean it like a carboy... I have one of these. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/keg-carboy-washer-158415/
I set it for two hours and walk away. When I return it is hot and clean.
If end up with gunk left over after that I will buy a rotating ball...

 

[maierhof]

I've been prototyping and experimenting with APRV? Adjustable Pressure Relief Valves built with off the shelf parts. The cheapest junk versions you'll find on Amazon and Mcmaster for around $5 use a circular seat and ball bearing valve. They leak in most of the adjustable range. It's good for not blowing up a compressor tank, but not for something we want to hold pressure indefinitely. The one with the big plastic knob for $13 is much better at holding pressure because the valve has an oring. I've tested using PTFE and MDPE balls for in tapered seats like flare fittings have and that doesn't work at all.

As much as I really do love stainless anything, it's probably not worth the R&D cost when the brass one that works is $13 because it won't touch your beer.

I had a discussion yesterday with someone knowledgeable from MoreBeer and it turns out that their APRV is tuned to hold 4 psi BUT they make a 10psi and a 20psi spring for these things! I ordered two of the 20psi psrts and we will see what happens... crossing fingers

 

[pickles]

I wondered if I had already seen a system like this a long time ago that I subconsciously forgot about because I would have sworn I was just looking at the 2" bottom drain adapters and thought, aha... sanke fermenter. So many pioneers running around in this hobby that it's really hard to be original even when you think you are. Hmm, just to make them really cheap now..

I've been prototyping and experimenting with APRV? Adjustable Pressure Relief Valves built with off the shelf parts. The cheapest junk versions you'll find on Amazon and Mcmaster for around $5 use a circular seat and ball bearing valve. They leak in most of the adjustable range. It's good for not blowing up a compressor tank, but not for something we want to hold pressure indefinitely. The one with the big plastic knob for $13 is much better at holding pressure because the valve has an oring. I've tested using PTFE and MDPE balls for in tapered seats like flare fittings have and that doesn't work at all.

As much as I really do love stainless anything, it's probably not worth the R&D cost when the brass one that works is $13 because it won't touch your beer.

how about something like this in lieu of the ball?

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/universal-poppet-valve.html

 

[maierhof]

how about something like this in lieu of the ball?

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/universal-poppet-valve.html

That poppit on the left in the pic is exactly what is in the end of the stainless aprv from morebeer with a different spring.

 

[jimyson]

Just ordered mine today! Thanks Bobby.

For those that didn't know, http://www.brewhardware.com/conversionkits/197-sankefermenter

 

[maierhof]

Just ordered mine today! Thanks Bobby.

For those that didn't know, http://www.brewhardware.com/conversionkits/197-sankefermenter

Nicely Done Bobby!
Not a bad price from go too...

If you decide to go with the cross and a 1/2" compresssion fitting to install the adjustable racking cane remember to buy the "full port" version which is bored all the way through so the cane can go in.

I thought you might have these by now but I just checked. Sorry for posting this but:
http://www.stainlessbrewing.com/SS-Comp-x-MPT-Bore-Through_p_56.html

 

[Bobby_M]

Sure, mine are bore-thru as well. I just realized the page didn't say anything about it so I just added a note:

http://brewhardware.com/fittings-75/103-tubecompression