Sanitising fluid practice

[robint]

Elsewhere I have seen member go to ridiculous lengths over sanitary practice - eg using RO or distilled water with a well known sanitizer product (which contains simply Phosphoric acid (a Coke additive) and a common surfactant (dish washing detergent) and selling for $$$$.
I can see that rinsing out used bottles to cleanse for old yeasts etc is important but generally plain old tap water seems just fine.
Maybe just wiping over equipment with Coke, rinsing lines with citric acid (very cheap) etc I would advise bleach cos the smell lingers around long after.

Has anyone tried common white vinegar - thats a very effective sanitiser and when rinsed with water doesnt linger afterwards and is harmless

OBTW a common use of vinegar (tsp in a cup of water) boiled up to simmer is a well known way to deodorize a room

 

[sibelman]

There are inexpensive ways to sanitize your stuff. While rinsing and vinegar are better than nothing, they're not generally accepted as adequate for beer-making nowadays.

Everything that touches post-boil wort/beer should be clean and sanitized. The most popular sanitizing agent is Star-San.

Cheers!

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

There's many products out there that work for cleaning and sanitizing but most products home brewers buy have been developed specifically for brewing.

 

[hottpeper13]

Vinegar = acidic acid which is not allowed in my brewery only my lacto fermentation.

 

[hotbeer]

It's all about risk management. That's whey we clean and sanitize. The typical ways we clean our stuff and the cleaning solutions do a certain amount of sanitation. So it's really just extra insurance that we do the sanitation step.

In addition once you get a infection, then it can be harder to get rid of with just cleaning. And even with the common sanitizers used for beer making.

I'd think vinegar would bring too much chance of a infection. I've had white vinegar start making a mother in the bottle. Mother is simply a colony of acetic acid bacteria from the vinegar getting contaminated after opening. So if vinegar itself can get a infection, it's not the thing I want to sanitize my beer stuff with. As I believe that the acetic acid bacterium will love to chew through the sugars in my wort/beer.

 

[Broken Crow]

Well gee, if you really wanna save cash:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/first-time-no-sanitizer-peed-on-it.14423/
....though maybe this should be in the other thread; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/remembering-ismellweird-this-november.696601/

 

[mac_1103]

I have seen member go to ridiculous lengths over sanitary practice - using RO or distilled water with a well known sanitizer product (which contains simply Phosphoric acid (a Coke additive) and a common surfactant (dish washing detergent) and selling for $$$$.
I can see that rinsing out used bottles to cleanse for old yeasts etc is important but generally plain old tap water seems just fine.

Star San is an excellent sanitizer. What you dilute it with kinda depends on the quality of your tap water. And how long you want the diluted sanitizer to last. Star San mixed up with my tap water is good (i.e. - pH stays low enough and foaming action doesn't diminish) for a few months. Star San mixed up with distilled or RO water basically lasts forever. If you don't plan to keep the diluted stuff around then it really shouldn't matter, unless you're worried about residual chlorine on your equipment or something.

"Ridiculous lengths over sanitary practice" might not seem so ridiculous after you get an infection.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

To me it's not worth cutting corners. There's an investment in time and money with brewing so why risk it and possibly end up with some drain cleaner?

 

[IslandLizard]

A Starsan working solution can be stored and reused for several weeks, months even. You also don't need to make buckets full of it. 0.5-1 gallon of a working solution is usually plenty. Small parts and hoses can be submerged. Use a washcloth to mop it onto the various surfaces. What's left over, save for the next time.

I usually make 3 gallons of a working solution in a (small) 4 gallon bucket. It will last me 2-3 months. Nothing goes in there that isn't already clean.

As an alternative to Starsan, one of the best sanitizers is Iodine. It's sold under various names (e.g., Iodophor), all basically forms of Povidone Iodine (aka Betadine). But it does need to be rinsed off (with water) before allowing contact with beer.
Although it may be somewhat cheaper, it cannot be stored for longer than 12 hours or so.

 

[robint]

As I understand it from the CDC guidance there are 3 levels

Definitions​

• Cleaning removes most germs, dirt, and impurities from surfaces. Clean with water, soap, and scrubbing.
• Sanitizing reduces germs to levels public health codes or regulations consider safe. Sanitizing is done with weaker bleach solutions or sanitizing sprays. Clean surfaces before you sanitize them.
• Disinfecting kills most germs on surfaces and objects. Disinfecting is done with stronger bleach solutions or chemicals. Clean surfaces before you disinfect them.

So were are on the same page.

 

[sibelman]

the same page.

We don't really need to sterilize; but to make good beer, we should undertake the effort (and minor expense) to sanitize. That's the page we're on.

 

[MaxStout]

Substituting vinegar for Starsan is merely substituting one acid for another. One that leaves an odor and flavor if not rinsed. And no-rinse is a big factor in choosing Starsan in the first place.

Starsan concentrate is about a buck an ounce. An ounce of concentrate makes 5 gallons, enough to last a long time. Mixing it with filtered water ensures the batch lasts a long time and its pH stays low enough to remain effective.

 

[mac_1103]

Substituting vinegar for Starsan is merely substituting one acid for another. One that leaves an odor and flavor if not rinsed.

Same reason we don't generally use vinegar to adjust mash or kettle pH.

 

[sibelman]

Substituting vinegar for Starsan is merely substituting one acid for another.

Though vinegar is way more natural than StarSan, there's some reason to believe that StarSan is more effective. After all, it's sold as a sanitizer. Vinegar is reputed to aid in cleaning, and it surely also kills some bacteria (and can include some). But is it good enough for brewing?

Rinsing the vinegar with tap water will add back some bacteria. Rinsing with boiled water would be something of a PITA -- I used to do that with Iodophor as the sanitizer, but I became a convert to no-rinse StarSan at some point.

Until your posting, @robint, I've never heard of a homebrewer using vinegar as a sanitizer.

 

[MaxStout]

Until your posting, @robint, I've never heard of a homebrewer using vinegar as a sanitizer.

Probably just the $$$$ issue OP brought up.

But if used judiciously, Starsan is dirt cheap. You can fill a quart spray bottle and sanitize most of your gear. For things that need to be dunked, a gallon or 2 is plenty and will last through several brews. If the items have been cleaned, they won't contaminate the Starsan.

 

[mac_1103]

if used judiciously, Starsan is dirt cheap

I went through my first small bottle pretty quickly, because it took me a while to realize that I didn't need to make up so much at a time and that it keeps for quite a while after diluting. I've barely made a dent in my second bottle, and I inherited an even bigger bottle from a guy who had to give up drinking and therefore gave up brewing. I'm quite confident that I will never have to buy Star San again.

 

[MaxStout]

I went through my first small bottle pretty quickly, because it took me a while to realize that I didn't need to make up so much at a time and that it keeps for quite a while after diluting. I've barely made a dent in my second bottle, and I inherited an even bigger bottle from a guy who had to give up drinking and therefore gave up brewing. I'm quite confident that I will never have to buy Star San again.

When I first started brewing I would make 5 gallons for soaking, sanitizing bottles, etc., then toss it every couple brews. I just assumed it went bad or something. I was going through Starsan like crazy.

Now still I keep 5 gallons for dunking bottles, but I don't throw it out--it lasts months. A cheap wallpaper tray from the home center store is a way to soak longer items like tubing, siphons, etc., using only 1/2 gal or so. And a spray bottle for sanitizing items too bulky to dunk.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

As I understand it from the CDC guidance there are 3 levels

Definitions​

• Cleaning removes most germs, dirt, and impurities from surfaces. Clean with water, soap, and scrubbing.
• Sanitizing reduces germs to levels public health codes or regulations consider safe. Sanitizing is done with weaker bleach solutions or sanitizing sprays. Clean surfaces before you sanitize them.
• Disinfecting kills most germs on surfaces and objects. Disinfecting is done with stronger bleach solutions or chemicals. Clean surfaces before you disinfect them.

So were are on the same page.

What question are you really asking?

I haven't heard of anyone using vinegar although it's a practice that has be used. It's a great question but I think most home brewers follow what the brewing industry uses. Great article of different sanitizers, and yes vinegar is on the list!

https://hopstersbrew.com/what-can-i-use-to-sanitize-brewing-equipment/

 

[robint]

we dont get Starsan in Uk. Sodium percarbonate is whats used - it produces hydrogen peroxide when mixed with water but it only lasts active for an hour or so.
Starsan reputedly uses Phosphoric acid (as used in Coke)
I got some of this years ago, very useful for de-rusting and plating steel with protective phosphate (grey colour)
For reasons I dont understand this acid i no longer readily available? anyone know why, I thought it was harmless?

 

[bruce_the_loon]

we dont get Starsan in Uk. Sodium percarbonate is whats used - it produces hydrogen peroxide when mixed with water but it only lasts active for an hour or so.
Starsan reputedly uses Phosphoric acid (as used in Coke)
I got some of this years ago, very useful for de-rusting and plating steel with protective phosphate (grey colour)
For reasons I dont understand this acid i no longer readily available? anyone know why, I thought it was harmless?

Have a look for a product called ChemSan, I see it on several home brew online stores in the UK. Looks similar to the StarSan and Acidisan products, dilutes 10ml to 5l of water and should have a similar longevity to StarSan.

 

[fluketamer]

"we dont get Starsan in Uk"

thats rediculous.


https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/star-san-32oz/

you guys actually have a better selection and variety of cleaning and sanitizing products then the US prolly due to regulation.

vpw is available by you. i think its an enzymatic cleaner which i think is hard to find in the states. i have tried.

brewing beer is not rocket science its actually pretty easy . IF YOU FOLLOW WELL KNOWN PRACTICES.

brewing really good beer is not that easy and requires you follow those practices pretty closely or at least try to.


the way i learned to make decent beer was by getting a coopers beer kit and making that . even then i READ UP ON SOME THINGS ABOUT HOMEBREWING. yes vinegar had been mentioned. then when i read through the vinegar posts here the consensus was that vinegar was definatley not no rinse it is extra rinse and sometimes hard to get the smell out of especially plastics. so it was a no go for me. and should be for you.

these days with you tube there is no excuse not to know the most rudimentary tried and tested methods of making beer in you home.

read a bunch of these threads first then post a question that would be worth your time in reading the answer.


get starsan (yes the same as chemsan and stellarsan in australia) and a spray bottle. it will last you forever as stated above.

the foam works just as well as the soak. you never have to fill up any vessel with starsan to sanitize. just a quarter the volume or less, shake like hell for the foam then just make sure every surface comes in contact with the liquid or foam for a minute or so and done.

no rinse i have drank it before its tasteless.

no brainer

 

[mac_1103]

Sodium percarbonate is whats used - it produces hydrogen peroxide when mixed with water but it only lasts active for an hour or so.

That's for cleaning, not sanitizing.

 

[robint]

"we dont get Starsan in Uk"

thats rediculous.


https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/star-san-32oz/

you guys actually have a better selection and variety of cleaning and sanitizing products then the US prolly due to regulation.

vpw is available by you. i think its an enzymatic cleaner which i think is hard to find in the states. i have tried.

brewing beer is not rocket science its actually pretty easy . IF YOU FOLLOW WELL KNOWN PRACTICES.

brewing really good beer is not that easy and requires you follow those practices pretty closely or at least try to.


the way i learned to make decent beer was by getting a coopers beer kit and making that . even then i READ UP ON SOME THINGS ABOUT HOMEBREWING. yes vinegar had been mentioned. then when i read through the vinegar posts here the consensus was that vinegar was definatley not no rinse it is extra rinse and sometimes hard to get the smell out of especially plastics. so it was a no go for me. and should be for you.

these days with you tube there is no excuse not to know the most rudimentary tried and tested methods of making beer in you home.

read a bunch of these threads first then post a question that would be worth your time in reading the answer.


get starsan (yes the same as chemsan and stellarsan in australia) and a spray bottle. it will last you forever as stated above.

the foam works just as well as the soak. you never have to fill up any vessel with starsan to sanitize. just a quarter the volume or less, shake like hell for the foam then just make sure every surface comes in contact with the liquid or foam for a minute or so and done.

no rinse i have drank it before its tasteless.

no brainer

"we dont get Starsan in Uk"

thats rediculous.

"we dont get Starsan in Uk"

thats rediculous.

Yea I am ridiculous wash up liquid with phosphoric acid and a few drops of dish wash detergent

VPW uses percarbonate only last an hour for peroxide job

Chemsan seems similar to Starsan (though they dont list their ingredients)
100mL £9.40
but it 5ml to 5 litres 0.1% ww dilution. so you get 20 flagons to last a long time - agreed





IF YOU FOLLOW WELL KNOWN PRACTICES.
Sure, where are these cardinal rules. on the Web they all contradict each other which ends up so confusing. Armchair anecdotes

READ UP ON SOME THINGS ABOUT HOMEBREWING

You might have been able to do that 20 years ago when info floating around was condensed into a little paper back - and it was simple back then

Now with the WEB what you have is 99% conflicting drivel largely commercially driven and designed to leave you completely bamboozled, and all the YT crap even worse with brewers bad habits glaringly portrayed - so much time wasted.

Which is why I have to ask dumb questions here

 

[sibelman]

why I have to ask

And please, keep asking. You will sometimes receive conflicting responses, and some "drivel" too, but I've found this site incredibly helpful when I need advice. (btw, the few commercial folk who participate are particularly helpful.)

 

[mac_1103]

Yea I am ridiculous

I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. You said you can't get Star San in the UK. He posted a link to Star San available in the UK. So what exactly is the point of the rest of your drivel?

Almost everyone who frequents this site agrees that percarbonate-based cleaners are great to use in the home brewery, and that Star San and similar products are excellent sanitizers. And that cleaners and sanitizers are not the same thing.

 

[MaxStout]

"we dont get Starsan in Uk"

thats rediculous.

"we dont get Starsan in Uk"

thats rediculous.

View attachment 862651
Yea I am ridiculous wash up liquid with phosphoric acid and a few drops of dish wash detergent

VPW uses percarbonate only last an hour for peroxide job

Chemsan seems similar to Starsan (though they dont list their ingredients)
100mL £9.40
but it 5ml to 5 litres 0.1% ww dilution. so you get 20 flagons to last a long time - agreed





IF YOU FOLLOW WELL KNOWN PRACTICES.
Sure, where are these cardinal rules. on the Web they all contradict each other which ends up so confusing. Armchair anecdotes

READ UP ON SOME THINGS ABOUT HOMEBREWING

You might have been able to do that 20 years ago when info floating around was condensed into a little paper back - and it was simple back then

Now with the WEB what you have is 99% conflicting drivel largely commercially driven and designed to leave you completely bamboozled, and all the YT crap even worse with brewers bad habits glaringly portrayed - so much time wasted.

Which is why I have to ask dumb questions here

Sounds like you had made up your mind from the start here and were hoping for some concurring opinions, of which there were none. Sorry if that's frustrating for you, but we will continue to listen to the sanitation advice from the vast majority of brewers, professional and amateur, who rely on the "drivel" of established science.

Brew the way you want to brew.

 

[hotbeer]

I somewhat disagree that sodium percarbonate is only a cleaner. It does kill yeast and bacteria that we don't want in our beer. It's only disadvantage is it's limited useful time as a sanitizer. But some sources say it's useful life is 5 to 6 hours. And it is considered no-rinse.

For one use on brew day the day it is mixed, it should be fine.

I prefer Iodophor though. I have no problem throwing it out after each use and making a fresh batch each time. I'd do the same if I used Star-San.

 

[mac_1103]

it is considered no-rinse

Interesting. I had not seen that.

 

[InspectorJon]

You might have been able to do that 20 years ago when info floating around was condensed into a little paper back - and it was simple back then

How To Brew by John Palmer is widely regarded as a good book to start with.

 

[robint]

There are cousins on here that have probably never been abroad let alone the UK and dont realise we dont get the same resources as you do. Starsan is not a practical proposition for us as Ive already shown and got an insulting comment in return. Not all of us homebrewers have deep pockets. It sure does get a lot of product placement on this board

Chemsan as noted seems to be the answer - but note how it was hard work for me to get there and I had to do a lot of digging