San Diego vs Portland

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

It's green here 365 days a year...we owe that to the rain everyone seems to complain about. It's really not that bad folks! (as I'm looking out the window and a pretty heavy/steady rain).

 

[Shooter]

"The senseless waste of pitting these two mighty forces of BREWING against each other, like matter vs. anti-matter, will be a tragedy, not only for the CITIES involved, but for our planet. All nations must band together, to ensure that such a conflageration never takes place."

Todd O'Conner

(With slight modificiations by Shooter - Who is all too happy to be blessed with the apparently less than noteworthy beers offerings in the San Francisco Bay area!)

 

[barleynhops]

Quite a snarl! I think both churn out magnificent beer. Being in the Portland area, I still find myself drinking beer from Green Flash, Stone and Alesmith quite often. I love them and I think their style is distinctive. In Portland's defense, I think the representation of our brews aren't adequately covered by the bigger breweries. I think Widmer and Bridgeport are good for what they do, but for true afficianados, you really have to be here and get it right off the tap from some of our better places. Hair of the Dog, Hopworks and Lucky Lab kick a tremendous amount of ass in their own right. Likewise, I'm sure there are some kick-ass breweries in SD that can't be tasted outside the area. Both cities have a very strong brew culture and I applaud both for offering more than fizzy, yellow, crappy beer!

To speak to this area, Portland just has a great vibe that lends itself well to a whole beer culture that has been established for decades. Good beer is infused in almost everything we do and it cracks me up sometimes that even when people aren't really "into" beer, you STILL see them sipping on something other than a Miller or Bud. That says something about the entire region. It doesn't hurt that almost the entire supply of the nations hops grow right in our backyard (Willamette and Yakima valleys).

 

[carnevoodoo]

I don't think I'll ever post in a vs. thread again. Too much bull**** superiority over something that should be celebrated. Collaborations are more fun than rivals any day.

 

[remilard]

Good beer is infused in almost everything we do and it cracks me up sometimes that even when people aren't really "into" beer, you STILL see them sipping on something other than a Miller or Bud.

PBR and High Life, as I recall.

I actually think I see less BMCP(abst) drinking here in Kansas City than I did when I lived in Portland, seriously. This is due primarily to the market dominance of Boulevard. Every bar, and I mean EVERY bar anywhere near Kansas City has 2 or more Boulevard taps. St. Louis is similar with Schafly, even though they are the city that AB built.

 

[khiddy]

I'd have to say that you only being able to name two breweries in San Diego county really makes you no better than the people you mock for not knowing the breweries you suggested.

Actually, I googled "san diego breweries" and the list came up with only two nationally recognizable names (Stone, in Escondido, and Lost Abbey, in San Marcos), and a ***load of pizza/burger brewpubs. I'd love to see a definitive list of what is considered a SD brewery, then we can noodle over the names to see what's legitimately a recognizable brewery. So far, I've given a PDX list, but nothing has come from the SD side.

But back to PDX. Deschutes and Rogue are making beer in their Portland breweries that are bottled and distributed in non-on-premise sales, so I wouldn't be so quick to discount their Portland locations as legitimate breweries. And I didn't even mention MacTarnahans/Pyramid, which is also a full-scale brewery within the city limits making beer that is nationally distributed (and now owned by Magic Hat).

The beer culture indeed is living and active here, with two large homebrew clubs in the city and one of the classic LHBSes, F.H. Steinbart's. The Collaborator project between Widmer Brewing and the Oregon Brew Crew has brought 20+ homebrewers' recipes to the taps of the Widmer Gasthaus and other craft beer pubs throughout Portland since 1998, and a project at the Green Dragon Pub (recently taken over by Rogue) has homebrewers producing 1BBL batches on their system for sale exclusively at the pub.

Portland is host to some of the largest and most interesting beer-related events anywhere in the USA. The Oregon Brewers' Festival is the largest gathering of independent craft brewers in the nation, and we supplement it with the Spring Beer & Wine Fest, the Organic Brewers' Festival, the Holiday Ale Festival, Cheers to Belgian Beers, and two Bike & Brew activities throughout the year, among other events & mini-festivals hosted by the many pubs and breweries themselves.

But hey, I also concur with the sentiments that we're blessed to have good beer all along the West Coast!

 

[carnevoodoo]

"I'd love to see a definitive list of what is considered a SD brewery, then we can noodle over the names to see what's legitimately a recognizable brewery."

This is why this **** is stupid. You have no clue what you're even fighting over. If you weren't so blatantly ignorant of the breweries outside of your city, you might be able to convince me of something. Luckily, I will travel North for beer, East for beer, and overseas when I get the chance for beer so I don't have to rely on a really half-assed google search. If you didn't even make it to the San Diego Brewer's Guild site, you really didn't look.

 

[Shooter]

"I'd love to see a definitive list of what is considered a SD brewery, then we can noodle over the names to see what's legitimately a recognizable brewery."

This is why this **** is stupid. You have no clue what you're even fighting over. If you weren't so blatantly ignorant of the breweries outside of your city, you might be able to convince me of something. Luckily, I will travel North for beer, East for beer, and overseas when I get the chance for beer so I don't have to rely on a really half-assed google search. If you didn't even make it to the San Diego Brewer's Guild site, you really didn't look.

Dude, you said you weren't going to post anymore. You sir, are a LIAR!!

 

[Shooter]

So, once we figure out who won this debate, what does the winner get? I guess I'm not clear on that point.

 

[humann_brewing]

how about all the people that live in San Diego and Portland send me samples of the best the perspective cities have to offer and I will evaluate them and report back.

This sounds fair don't you think?

 

[Shooter]

how about all the people that live in San Diego and Portland send me samples of the best the perspective cities have to offer and I will evaluate them and report back.

This sounds fair don't you think?

They will also need to send a backup sample to my attention in case the primary sample is lost, damaged, or adulterated. Better safe than sorry I always say!

 

[carnevoodoo]

Let's all just meet in the middle at Russian River and be bummed that we don't have that brewery near us.

 

[humann_brewing]

Let's all just meet in the middle at Russian River and be bummed that we don't have that brewery near us.

Pliny the younger comes in February, that would be a great time

 

[arturo7]

This discussion really should include the Bay Area as an option.

 

[hbomb]

I don't know. I mean if you guys want to use indicators like number of breweries, depth of beer culture or quality of beer, well I guess that's alright... but I'd prefer to see some hard data on prevalence of liver disease and gluten allergies per capita if I'm really going to be convinced either way.

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

I don't feel like anyone's fighting, and I think this is a great discussion. We just need to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. For example the SDBG site was mentioned. Of the 25 or so breweries on there only 7 are actually in San Diego. The short list of brewers I listed are actually in the city limits of Portland. Go to the Oregon Brewers Guild site and there are 21 breweries listed in Portland (that is Portland addresses vs San Diego addresses). Both counts by the way only count unique brewery names...so those with multiple locations only get 1 count.

But are we just going off numbers? Quality of the beer produced? Culture? etc?

This conversation is quite easy to keep civil and a great way to learn about the scene in other cities.

 

[humann_brewing]

I don't know. I mean if you guys want to use indicators like number of breweries, depth of beer culture or quality of beer, well I guess that's alright... but I'd prefer to see some hard data on prevalence of liver disease and gluten allergies per capita if I'm really going to be convinced either way.

I think the BMC capitals have the winners in that scenario.

 

[Shooter]

This conversation is...a great way to learn about the scene in other cities.

Agreed on that, but why do these threads always need to be titled "vs." in these cases. Sure, you could argue that is indiciating a comparison between the two, but the threads alway degrade into, "Oh yeah!!! Well, here's why your town sucks!!"

As far as beer goes, I would be happy to live in Portland or San Diego and bask in the wealth of good beer, but I'm also pretty danged excited about the options in my area.

 

[khiddy]

"I'd love to see a definitive list of what is considered a SD brewery, then we can noodle over the names to see what's legitimately a recognizable brewery."

This is why this **** is stupid. You have no clue what you're even fighting over. If you weren't so blatantly ignorant of the breweries outside of your city, you might be able to convince me of something... If you didn't even make it to the San Diego Brewer's Guild site, you really didn't look.

I did visit the SD Brewer's Guild site before I posted. And I stand by my assertion that there are far less nationally recognizable names in SD than in PDX.

 

[remilard]

I think every beer geek in the country knows Stone, Port Brewing/Lost Abbey, Gordon Biersch (we are counting sattelite restaurant breweries, right?), Green Flash, Ballast Point and AleSmith, at a minimum.

So this is verses Deschutes, Full Sail and Rogue (none of which are really from Portland) and Widmer and Bridgeport and maybe Hopworks.

Sounds about even to me, but if you don't grasp at credit for breweries that are really from somewhere else, San Diego is ahead.

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

I think every beer geek in the country knows Stone, Port Brewing/Lost Abbey, Gordon Biersch (we are counting sattelite restaurant breweries, right?), Green Flash, Ballast Point and AleSmith, at a minimum.

I was not counting national chains such as GB or Rockbottom.

but if you don't grasp at credit for breweries that are really from somewhere else, San Diego is ahead.

And if you're counting satellite restaurant breweries you can not make the above statement...Deschutes, Rogue, Full Sail, Pyramid etc all have production facilities in Portland. If you count GB, you have to count them.

San Diego is ahead.

If we're going solely off number of breweries IN A CITY (that is with a San Diego or Portland address) I don't see how you can say that. 21 vs 7 isn't even close.

 

[arturo7]

Things are heating up...

 

[khiddy]

I think every beer geek in the country knows Stone, Port Brewing/Lost Abbey, Gordon Biersch (we are counting sattelite restaurant breweries, right?), Green Flash, Ballast Point and AleSmith, at a minimum.

So this is verses Deschutes, Full Sail and Rogue (none of which are really from Portland) and Widmer and Bridgeport and maybe Hopworks AND PYRAMID/MACTARNAHAN'S.

Sounds about even to me, but if you don't grasp at credit for breweries that are really from somewhere else, San Diego is ahead.

Fixed that for you.

Actually, Gordon Biersch definitely shouldn't count, it's a brewpub chain from San Jose - just as I wouldn't count the BJ's nor Rock Bottom chains, both of which we also have in PDX. I already responded to the Deschutes/Rogue question (they bottle specific beers that are only brewed at their PDX locations for nationwide distribution, so they legitimately count).

I'm a bit of a beer geek and have never heard of Ballast Point nor Green Flash, and I've traveled all over the USA to drink beer and snoop around in bottle shops. The July/August 2009 Zymurgy had the reader-voted poll for best beer in America, and it included some other interesting tidbits: 2 of the top 10 breweries in America were Rogue (#7) and Deschutes (#10). Stone was #2, but there were no other SD-area breweries in the list (top 25). In the "Spirit of Homebrew" list, Hair of the Dog got #2, and Alesmith and Port/Lost Abbey were #3 & #5, respectively. So there's that, seems like a fairly even ranking overall.

There's simply no way that SD has any sort of claim to "Beervana". Portland's Widmer Brothers invented a style now recognized in the BJCP: American Wheat. The McMenamin brothers pioneered the brewpub concept, and were the first to legally produce a fruit beer (Ruby Ale). Our own local Beer God, Fred Eckhardt, created the classification of beer styles that later was developed into the BJCP. Many of the most positive developments in brewing since 1978 started here in PDX, and we're continuing the evolution with the move to recognize a distinct style of "Dark IPA" (working name: "Cascadian Pale Ale"), using darker malts and the "C" hops.

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

I'm a bit of a beer geek and have never heard of Ballast Point nor Green Flash

This really is surprising, especially the Green Flash. They produce some darn good brews and they are available here in PDX.

 

[khiddy]

Do tell me where and what I should get, I'd like to try, don't get me wrong! I don't recall seeing any of their stuff at Saraveza, but I can definitely head out to John's Marketplace or Belmont Station to pick some up, with some good recommendations.

I'm all for good beer, so please educate!

 

[arturo7]

Uh oh, the Portland contingency has turned on itself!

 

[schristian619]

I agree that this discussion/argument is pretty pointless. I mean, both cities have great beer and culture.
+1 to not knowing green flash or ballast point. I've had both while visiting portland.
last point....
the whole "most SD breweries aren't really in SD" argument doesn't really make sense. Anyone who is at all familiar with how socal is organized knows that we have many many cities within a very short distance. I can literally drive less than 10 minutes in any direction and be technically in a different city. well, except west or I'd be in the ocean. Anybody who lives in la mesa, el cajon, la jolla, escondido, etc will say they live in SD if asked by anyone outside of SD. just like anyone who is from torrance, carson, santa monica, etc, will say they live in LA. Maybe the PDX area is like that too, but I don't know it well enough to say.

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

Any bottle shop here should have some Green Flash. I know for sure John's and Belmont do. My favs are the Hop Head Red, West Coast IPA, Imperial, and Barleywine.

And it sounds to me like arturo is trying to start something that isn't there.

 

[humann_brewing]

The McMenamin brothers pioneered the brewpub concept.

Not to get nit picky but that was Bert Grant that did that.

From McMenamins:

Soon after the Barley Mill Pub's opening, Oregon law changed to allow breweries to sell beer on the same property as it was brewed—thus was born the brewpub concept. The now-famous microbrew revolution took over the Pacific Northwest. In fact, the first brewpub to start brewing its own beer in Oregon was McMenamins Hillsdale Brewery & Public House in southwest Portland in 1985.

Bert's brewpub opened in 1982. He also revitalized the IPA category and RIS. Check out this good read from the real Michael Jackson:
http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-001575.html

 

[Picobrew]

This is a tough argument to have because there are different things you can measure. The problem with trying to rate Portland and Oregon is that we drink most of the beer that gets produced here. If you don't live here or travel here, you haven't experienced it and won't be able to give it a fair shake. Oregon has the highest draft beer % and the highest craft % in consumption in the country, and the bulk of beer produced in Oregon gets drank in Oregon. Like was said earlier, there might not be the nationally sought after cache brands like Russian River and DogFish Head, but good beer is part of every day life. Every crappy dive has multiple good local beers. The chain restaurants have 10 oregon beers on tap. The crappy quickymart has 20 different local six packs. The most popular micros around town aren't available outside of the city let alone the state. You can't get Amnesia, Upright, Laurelwood, Roots,Lompoc, Lucky Lab, or Double Mountain if you aren't around here. McMenamins doesn't sell anything outside of their establishments, they just have dozens and dozens of pubs, brewpubs, event halls, movie theater pubs, and converted schools you can hang out it in. It's more of a "vibe" thing than can be quantified by comparing breweries.

Also, I think the SD breweries have done a better job of creating "buzz beers" and created more of a national desire for their bottled beers. The Oregon breweries have largely kept their "buzz beer" kind of beers in the local draft beer scene, while companies like BridgePort and Widmer have gone national with affordable six-packs, not trying (until recently) to compete nationally with Russian River, Dogfish Head, etc.