Sam Adams Utopias clone - Calling all big beer experts! Paulthenurse and yeager1977

[paulthenurse]

I don't view that explosive fermentation as necessarily a good thing. I'd much rather see a steady, controlled progression through to the finish. I'd be afraid that whatever biochemical markers the yeast use as they ramp up and down just showed up by the bucketload and might shut down the party. I'm no yeast biologist but it concerns me. Let's hope I'm totally off base and they're good for that next 30 points.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Yeah, the thought crossed my mind, but I was trying to be positive. I had my LHBS put aside another vial if the stuff hits the fan, but I'll be hoping it gets at least close enough for the champagne yeast to finish it off. I was attributing (wishful thinking perhaps) that the mass quantity of yeast was to blame for the fast ferment. I'm going to be taking another reading this evening and see what the progress was today. If it has barely changed since this morning I'll be worried.

 

[JonAllenNH]

PTN, while signs of fermentation are barely noticeable from the outside (the FastFerment is opaque) - maybe a bubble every 2-4 minutes - I decided to take a peek at the next O2 shot. There's still a lot of activity in there. Didn't grab a reading, but decided to go ahead and give it a small shot of reserved wort (aerated), and some yeast nutrient as well (I forgot it in the boil). Within 10 minutes of adding it it was back up to 60-80 bubbles per minute. At 20 minutes I'm back up to nearly constant bubbling. So they're not done that's for sure, maybe they just didn't have much left to break down...I'll keep an eye on the gravity and maybe I'll want that amylase after all...

Also, anyone have any recommendations on oaking? Using Hungarian cubes, I'm going to soak .5oz in tawny port and .5oz in bourbon for 2 weeks before adding. Just can't figure out how long I'll leave them in for. Not that it matters to know ahead of time as I'll be checking it every few days for flavor anyway, but anyone have an idea of a ballpark? I'm guessing, given the high OG I'm probably looking at at least a month. Also, I'm going back and forth on steaming at least the .5oz soaked in port prior to soaking. I know the bourbon is enough to sanitize, but port I got is only 18%. I've also read steaming the oak first, no matter what the soak, tends to add a better flavor anyway. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[paulthenurse]

You'll steam away flavor. I wouldn't do it. If you're uber worried or anal toss them in the oven for a few minutes. It further concentrate your wood flavor.

I just brewed a bourbon porter. Filled up a pint mason jar with dark oak, Jim Beam to cover and added when the bourbon was all absorbed. The smell is phenom but the taste takes longer.

 

[JonAllenNH]

That sounds great. How much and how long in the secondary?

Just pulled a sample of the mild version and mixed in a little bourbon, port and Tetravis (a few drops of each since it was only a sample of the lighter abv/body version) that I plan to use. There's no oaking (except on the Tetravis), but it's really good. Very complex with lots of layers. I'm very confident in my plan at this point. Fermentation is still bubbling away after the addition of more wort so I'm not too worried about the yeast at this point. Looks like they just might be a little faster than I expected.

 

[thatjonguy]

What was your calculated pitch against your needed pitch?

 

[ten80]

I'm with Paul on the slower, more controlled fermentations.

What was your pitching temp? I suspect it might have been a little high (68-70?) and if so, could have been partially responsible for the violent fermentation. I'd be interested to know.

I've been thinking about doing this recipe for a while. Starting the fermentation on the cold side (62ish) and ramping temp up to about 75 near the end of the fermentation would be my preferred strategy for a clean fermentation with minimal yeast stress.

Aging and oak may help cover up or break down any hot or estery flavors, but what do I know, I've only brewed up to 11% stouts

Thanks for documenting your process!

 

[JonAllenNH]

What was your calculated pitch against your needed pitch?

According to BeerSmith I needed 380 billion cells (rounding up), but between the 2L starter pitched into the 5G "mild" version and then making a 2.5L starter with the washed yeast from that I should have ended up in the neighborhood of 1590 billion, so even if I got half that viable I'm way over what's necessary.

Ten80: I pitched at about 65-66*F. To be honest, I was actually shooting for 68*, and I've maintained 67* in ferm since with a digital temp controller. The yeast seem plenty happy, thus far no off or hot flavors tastes mostly the same as it did going into the fermenter, just a tad more blended. Thus far it tastes great and the mild version, which is now in secondary, tastes fantastic, especially blended with the other alcohols I'm going to blend with it - as mentioned earlier. I'd highly recommend trying it! Even if this comes out horribly wrong, this brew has been a blast and I'll at least have the mild version to keep me warm at night if it all goes south.

 

[thatjonguy]

I'm not sure if you got there, but there is such a thing as over pitching, that can lead to problems of it's own. I would agree that a gradual fermentation is much better than explosive.

You used 099 right? That stuff is a beast, so it might be okay in the long run; but you can't age out the precursors for yeast reproduction if the yeast are dead from high alcohol levels. Pitching new yeast might not be able to clean it up either.

At any rate, not trying to scare you.

Thanks for sharing your process. I'm excited to see the end results!

 

[ten80]

Ten80: I pitched at about 65-66*F. To be honest, I was actually shooting for 68*, and I've maintained 67* in ferm since with a digital temp controller.

Well shoot, my armchair brewmaster temperature guess was wrong

Sounds like you just had a lot of super active yeast, that's an impressive start. Next time put on some Kenny G to mellow them out.

Have you considered nutrient additions? A little DAP or Fermax about now might help prolong activity. I don't think there is any potential for off flavors from either, especially given the massive amount of yeast in your fermentor.

cheers,
Christophe

 

[JonAllenNH]

Thanks Jon, I'd asked around the LHBS and a few other folks I knew and the general consensus was that it was impossible to overpitch, so I went for the gold. Whoops! I've done nothing higher than 9% ABV previous to this.

ten: I added yeast nutrient (wyeast) with a wort addition about 4 hours ago. It's been back in gear since. The next planned additions are; wort/brown sugar, maple syrup, wort/brown sugar, maple syrup, EC-1118 champagne yeast, Sam Adams Tetravis (750ml) and then secondary with soaked oak.

 

[thatjonguy]

Thanks Jon, I'd asked around the LHBS and a few other folks I knew and the general consensus was that it was impossible to overpitch, so I went for the gold. Whoops! I've done nothing higher than 9% ABV previous to this.

ten: I added yeast nutrient (wyeast) with a wort addition about 4 hours ago. It's been back in gear since. The next planned additions are; wort/brown sugar, maple syrup, wort/brown sugar, maple syrup, EC-1118 champagne yeast, Sam Adams Tetravis (750ml) and then secondary with soaked oak.

It is very hard to over pitch but possible.

I tried to find a threshold guideline but came up empty in a quick search. I can dig through a few technical brewing textbooks and hit up a friend at Troegs if you really would like to know.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Don't stress yourself over it, but I'd certainly be curious to know.

 

[JonAllenNH]

So, sounds like I have a possible concern of off flavors due to the amount of yeast. So should I speed up the additions so I don't delay the primary fermentation so I can get it off as much of the yeast as possible as fast as possible, or just play it out?

 

[ten80]

I would not be surprised if the off-flavors will settle out when you transfer to secondary as your beer seems too young to be suffering from much yeast autolysis and oxidation.

That said, don't go to secondary too soon or mess with it if it is still chugging along! A stuck ferment might be worse than some subtle off-flavors.

 

[JonAllenNH]

don't go to secondary too soon or mess with it if it is still chugging along!

I think you misunderstood what I meant, Christophe. I have multiple stages of additions planned, as I was expecting fermentation to take about 3-4 weeks. Instead of the smaller additions, should I make a few larger additions instead to condense that down so once it's done and at/near FG I can rack it onto the oak?

 

[JonAllenNH]

Also, just as an update for all of those watching this thread. I'm not sure what caused that crazy fast fermentation in the first 32 hours or so, but it seems to have slowed down now and it's still active. The first 32 hours it went from 1.192 with rapid airlock movement to 1.040 with no airlock movement, still some churning and bubbling in the fermenter, but with the FastFerment I had to open it to see it...I have a love/hate relationship with this thing.
About 4PM yesterday I added 6 cups of reserved wort (1.192), boiled 10 minutes, yeast nutrient and oxygenated for 2 minutes. Within 10 minutes it started bubbling at a rate of 60-80 bubbles per minute, within 20 minutes there was one right behind the last (about 120-130 per minute). About 8PM it was back down to the 60-80 mark and stayed strong. This morning it's closer to about 30 per minute, but still working.

 

[thatjonguy]

Jon,

Talked to my brewer friend from Troegs; he said it would have overpitched the he'll out of a beer north of 1.200. It's going to be hot with fusels, now way around that as the yeast are going to be stressed in this type of situation.

Also, he thought that any drier than 1.040 might be a little thin for a Utopias clone. I would agree since Utopias is pretty thick.

He referenced a batch he saw ferment out in 3 days by a large craft brewery in CO, that was a 18% stout and was very hot on samples.

Looks like you are on the right track. I might have to take a wack at this later this year.

 

[paulthenurse]

It need's to be well south of 1040 in order to be drinkable. I don't like the idea of too many small additions. Get it in there and finished. Eventually your going to have an environment that is just too hostile for continued fermentation. Remember, alcohol is toxic the more your yeasties create in there the faster it will make them go dormant. Trying to restart in a high alcohol environment is guaranteed to frustrate.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Thanks to both of you guys.

Jon, thanks for reaching out to your buddy. Good advice and I'll keep an eye on it. I enjoy Troegs, so kind of cool to have their input. The initial gravity into the fermenter was at 1.192 the OG of 1.212 is estimated and calculated with the additions of brown sugar and maple syrup in the primary. I overshot it a bit as I'd intended to get an OG (including additions) of 1.207.

PtN, I agree and have already started working on this. I've added one of the wort/brown sugar additions, this evening I'm going to add the entire maple syrup addition and tomorrow morning the rest of the wort/brown sugar additions. It's really dense with slurry and trub, so I've also been siphoning off some of the stuff settling from the conical to help clear up the fermenter a bit. Hoping that'll help settle things down. At this point, it's still going strong and maintaining between 60 and 120 bubbles per second depending on the temp and whether or not I've added an addition or O2 shot recently. At this point, I've cut the O2 shots except for the additions. Each one gets about 1.5 minutes of pure O2 before adding.
Glad I work from home so I can give it the attention it deserves. I was planning on brewing again tomorrow, but I think I may need to hold off on any more brew days until this thing settles down.

 

[ten80]

It need's to be well south of 1040 in order to be drinkable. I don't like the idea of too many small additions. Get it in there and finished. Eventually your going to have an environment that is just too hostile for continued fermentation. Remember, alcohol is toxic the more your yeasties create in there the faster it will make them go dormant. Trying to restart in a high alcohol environment is guaranteed to frustrate.

Agreed that re-starting is difficult, but if the additions are diligently added to maintain the highest possible level of fermentation, then you can at least stop making additions when it is apparent that the yeast are petering out.


I think the inhibitory alcohol concentration would be attained with either large or small additions assuming one can make additions at the right time to maintain peak yeast activity (caveat). The smaller additions would have to maintain a sugar concentration in solution that is excess of the maximum rate at which yeast can catabolize the sugar.

An additional consideration is that high wort sugar concentrations can inhibit yeast activity because of the high resulting osmotic gradient, so making smaller additions may be beneficial in this regard.

Jon,

Your yeast have a tough task ahead of them due to the detrimental effects of alcohol, CO2 (and low pH), sugars, and other metabolic bi-products, plus the depletion of free nitrogen and nutrients! Of these factors, you are already controlling nitrogen, nutrients, and sugars. Have you thought about periodically de-gassing the beer with a wine whip? Adding O2 displaces a little (but not all) CO2 from solution, but may result in oxidation over time.

De-gassing the beer will also temporarily increase the pH which could help spur yeast activity. If fermentation drives the pH much below 3(ish), then adding potassium carbonate to buffer pH may also have a beneficial effect on reducing yeast stress. This is done frequently for meads and wines.

 

[JonAllenNH]

As I'm not going to be carbing the beer...anyone have any thoughts on a quick and dirty DIY filter? I don't keg so I don't have CO2 or kegs handy so typical methods are out. I initially thought about a gravity fed granulated activated carbon, but I'd be worried about O2. I guess it's still feasible if I can come up with some kind of closed system...

 

[JonAllenNH]

Have you thought about periodically de-gassing the beer with a wine whip?

I think that's a good idea, but I don't have one. I think I can probably put something together with what I do have though. I'll see what I can do. Fortunately, all my kitchen utensils are also stainless which gives me a few more options.

 

[ten80]

I swirl the carboys at least twice a day for my big beers and that causes some pretty substantial de-gassing, but it is not as thorough as a wine whip and needs to be done more frequently to be effective.

Peristaltic or diaphragm pump can also be used to filter beer as they are self-priming and will introduce little to no oxygen to the beer. I can't think of a better solution for filtering.

What about some simpler solutions like just leaving the beer in secondary for a while (week or two) at cold temperatures or fining with gelatine or bentonite. I have used the latter two on beer and wine in the secondary carboy with good success.

 

[JonAllenNH]

I swirl the carboys at least twice a day for my big beers and that causes some pretty substantial de-gassing, but it is not as thorough as a wine whip and needs to be done more frequently to be effective.

Thanks Christophe, I'm using the FastFerment conical which makes swirling a bit of a challenge, but I have been rocking it (it's wall mounted) back and forth being careful not to splash at every addition and O2 shot. I also found a long slotted stainless spoon in my kitchen utensils. Obviously not quite the same as a degassing rod, but it's in the ballpark. I think I might give it a try.

As for the extended secondary, I'm going to be aging this on the oak and in secondary for 5-6 months (I doubt the oak will be in there that long, but we'll see) and planned on using gelatin. I did this on my last 3 brews and it's worked great so I think it's going to become part of my regular routine. With that said, I don't know that any further filtering would be necessary, but where it's not going to be carbonated I would like it to be crystal clear. Thanks for the pump ideas and I've also been scouring the internet as well. Found a guy using a whole house filter the same way we use from keg to keg for filtering, but with gravity. Seemed to work out OK for him, but that seems like a whole lot of oxidation I don't want.

 

[JonAllenNH]

With the exception of 1/4 gallon of reserved wort all additions have been added. It's in the beer god's hands now to a certain extent. Maintaining a watchful eye. Checking on it every few hours and degassing every so often. There seems to be a lot of gasses in there, when I pull from the bottom of the conical there's even a good amount of foam all the way down there. Never seen that before. The trub also doesn't seem to be separating out, but the yeast are still very active so I'm hoping/guessing that'll take care of itself in the end. Seeing lots of things I haven't seen before on this beer.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Still chugging along this morning. Took a reading and had a taste. The flavor is great, strong body (which I expected at it's current SG and the alcohol is surprisingly hidden tastes like maybe a 10-14% ABV would, just warmer). Luckily, I'm not getting a whole lot of off flavors or burn...yet. Hydro reading is at 1.036 at this point so it's slowly going down at this point. I know it's still early (pitched yeast around 12:30AM on Sat night/Sunday morning it's now Wednesday at 11AM), but I would have expected more trub to fall out by now. It's still loaded with particulates. This goes well beyond cloudy. I had a good hot break in the boil and good separation in the cold break. Most of which was left behind in the pot and I also used a strainer going into the fermenter which captured a lot more. I don't know where it all came from, it was actually one of my clearer worts going into the fermenter. Obviously I expected some from this high an OG, but this is a crazy amount. That has me a little concerned.

I've been holding off on adding amylase because I don't want it to be too thin, but I was shooting for 1.022 and it's still pretty high. Any opinions? I don't want to use Beano and have it wind up near - or worse below - 1.000, but I've read adding Amylase usually won't get it that low. I have a bottle of LD Carlson Amylase Enzyme which I added during mash for better efficiency. Some sites say it's just alpha, some sites say it's just beta, some sites say it's both...

 

[paulthenurse]

My recommendation... Stop f'ing with it. You have 500 billion yeast chewing down at an an all you can eat buffet. Leave the little barstids alone. Jezuz H Christ. You're reminding me of Thanksgiving at my sisters house. I've just eaten to the point of stupor and all I want to do is go flop in a chair and watch Dallas get humiliated for a few hours and she's organizing outings to the f'ing mall. Will you relax, fa Christ sake? Do you REALLY think I'm letting that last half of the pie rot in your fridge? Gimme a bit. I'm regathering myself. I'll get there. You know I'll get there.

Lighten up, Francis. I think you're in the stretch run. Now would be a good time to add the 099. That sh!t can ferment the dead hookers under your shed.

Don't ask how I know that.

 

[paulthenurse]

Oh ya. Stop with the silly pump and filter bullsh!t. This stuff needs to sit for AT LEAST 6-8 months before upu bottle. Rack it a few times to get it clear. Consider 50 ppm KMeta at each racking. (1/4 teaspoon/5 gallons). Make sure it's crystal clear before you bottle so that every time you open a bottle you don't want to punch Yeager in the throat.

Not that I would know anything about that.

 

[JonAllenNH]

I planned on aging it in secondary for 5-6 months. Plus adding a gelatin fining. I want it to be crystal clear so the filtering was for after the 6 months if it still needs it by then, but the KMeta is not a bad thought that I hadn't considered. **Edit** I only knew what KMeta was from a friend who makes wine. Did some reading and it looks like 50ppm is all that's recommended total (for wine). So, would 50ppm at each racking be too high? Not sure what the intent was of your suggestion. Since it's for stabilization and preservative wouldn't 50ppm at bottling be more appropriate, like with wine?