Salty taste

[Devin]

I have been having an issue with a salty taste in my beers for a while now. I started noticing it after I started "building" my water profile from the water chemistry primer on this forum. However, I only notice it in the lighter ales that I make. I made a stout and a red that I didn't notice the salty flavor. I had one batch - an IPA, that started out tasting salty, but had the salty flavor fade after some time (turned out to be an excellent beer). But, I have had other pale ales that seem to maintain the saltiness throughout the keg. At first, I was thinking/hoping that it was maybe some trub that got sucked into the kegs and settling to the bottom - that was what I was tasting. But, now I am not so sure.

So, for my latest batch, I will go into detail on the recipe and process:

Grains:
9 lb 2 row
1.25 lb C20
0.5 lb carapils
0.5 lb corn sugar

Hops:
0.4 oz Columbus @60
0.25 oz Cascade @25
0.20 oz Centennial @25
0.25 oz Cascade @10
0.25 oz Centennial @10

Zest from 3 Oranges @15


For the water, I used: 7.8 gal of RO water treated with 1.5 tsp CaCl and 0.5 tsp Gypsum. I added 1.7 mL of lactic acid. This is based on the suggestions from the primer (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/)

I use the BIAB technique.

Mashed for 60 minutes at 149F

Fermented for a week at 68F - Safale 05 Yeast

One thing that I also noticed from my notes is that the "salty" taste, which seems to appear in my lighter ales - all of those recipes also used Centennial. Could the Centennial hops be causing this? Any other ideas of what might cause this?

This is frustrating - my local water sucks for brewing most things - it is extremely soft and they use chloramine to treat it. That is why I started trying this water primer thing. I have had some tell me that the lactic acid imparts weird flavors - but I have had some good tasting beers with it. I am just wondering if I am doing something wrong with the salt additions. Anyway, I figured I would throw this out to get some more ideas.

Thanks.

Devin

 

[youreanimpulse]

Have you tried different salt profiles? I use more gypsum than CaCl usually in lighter beers, I get a sharper taste I prefer. You could try experimenting with that ratio.


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[Devin]

Yeah, I have tried messing with the ratio some. Doesn't seem to be a factor. I have had some of the IPA recipes where I had up to 3 tsp of gypsum and about the same CaCL. Still get this weird salt flavor.

 

[Braufessor]

That does seem like quite a bit of CaCl for an IPA. Although, it I don't think it would make your beer taste salty either. 1/4 tsp of CaCl is about a gram. So, you have about 6 grams or close to 1 gram per gallon of CaCl.

I would reverse those additions and try 1.5tsp of Gypsum and .5 tsp of CaCl. A hop-forward beer like an IPA will benefit from the sulfate in the gypsum. CaCl accentuates the maltiness of a beer. I generally don't use lactic acid..... so, can't say how that amount would affect your beer.

 

[Braufessor]

One other thought, even though you did not mention it...... You don't use 5.2 pH stabilizer do you?

 

[mabrungard]

The most important question is: Where is the RO water coming from and have you tested it's quality with a TDS meter? If you haven't verified that your RO source is actually producing a very low TDS water, then the problem may be that you are just adding minerals to an already minerally water.

 

[Devin]

No - I don't use the 5.2 stabilizer.

mabrungard - That is an interesting thought. I get my RO from the Glacier stand at the store. I don't have a TDS meter, so I haven't ever tested it. I guess that I could try a duplicate batch next time but use bottled distilled water - in hopes that it is actually low in mineral content.

 

[mabrungard]

TDS meters are cheap and durable. If you buy RO water, you should have one or you could be getting short changed in water quality. It's happened to many before you.

 

[J187]

why does your water suck for brewing? You said it's really soft, but is it really alkaline or something? What does your water profile look like? RO water is really soft too... how is your water different? I would think that unless you are beyond dilution as a fix, you'd want to simply dial in your own water and not have to buy DI or RO. Lots of water contains Chloramine, a simple campden tablet can take care of that.

 

[Devin]

The main reason I don't like my own tap water is because of the chloramine. I did try a couple of batches using campden treatment and there was something about those batches that just didn't sit right with me as far as taste goes - I attributed it to the campden. I don't have a lot of information about the water profile other than some information that I was given by a local brewing club, which gave me these statements for our water:

Ca 18.0
Mg 5.0
Na 25.0
SO4 1.0
Cl 9.0
HCO3 103.8

along with the local water quality report (which doesn't give much relevant information): http://www.losalamosnm.us/utilities/DPUDocuments/DPU_BR130617WaterReport.pdf

and finally, another comment from a local brewer about the water here is that it has loads of silica as well from volcanic rocks that make up the aquifer from where the municipal wells are screened.

 

[J187]

The main reason I don't like my own tap water is because of the chloramine. I did try a couple of batches using campden treatment and there was something about those batches that just didn't sit right with me as far as taste goes - I attributed it to the campden. I don't have a lot of information about the water profile other than some information that I was given by a local brewing club, which gave me these statements for our water:

Ca 18.0
Mg 5.0
Na 25.0
SO4 1.0
Cl 9.0
HCO3 103.8

along with the local water quality report (which doesn't give much relevant information): http://www.losalamosnm.us/utilities/DPUDocuments/DPU_BR130617WaterReport.pdf

and finally, another comment from a local brewer about the water here is that it has loads of silica as well from volcanic rocks that make up the aquifer from where the municipal wells are screened.

So you may end up with brilliantly clear beer AND cancer from silica?

In reality, I admittedly don't know much about silica in beer.. I do know that there is controversy as to whether it causes lung disease and cancer in drinking water. Maybe someone will chime in with more info.

I've never tasted anything in my beer from using campden. I use a quarter tab in my mash and a quarter in my sparge. I think it does a great job with chloramines.

 

[mabrungard]

My understanding is that silica is a respiratory hazard. I don't think its a problem to drink since there is no limit or standard for silica or silicate in drinking water. If you routinely evaporate your water and snort the residue, you might have a valid concern.

 

[Talgrath]

The main reason I don't like my own tap water is because of the chloramine. I did try a couple of batches using campden treatment and there was something about those batches that just didn't sit right with me as far as taste goes - I attributed it to the campden. I don't have a lot of information about the water profile other than some information that I was given by a local brewing club, which gave me these statements for our water:

Ca 18.0
Mg 5.0
Na 25.0
SO4 1.0
Cl 9.0
HCO3 103.8

along with the local water quality report (which doesn't give much relevant information): http://www.losalamosnm.us/utilities/DPUDocuments/DPU_BR130617WaterReport.pdf

and finally, another comment from a local brewer about the water here is that it has loads of silica as well from volcanic rocks that make up the aquifer from where the municipal wells are screened.

Step #1 as far as your local water profile, I would get your actual water profile with the actual breakdowns and not rely on second hand information, you will have to specifically request it from the city or county (whoever manages your water) with a full break down. Your local brewing club might be pulling information from an old report or an aquifer you aren't on. As an example, my water profile for my house is different from my buddy's who lives a mere mile down the road, if he used my water profile for his beer brewing he'd get some pretty funky results. As far as silica it depends on exactly what type of silica is in your water, I doubt it's anything truly hazardous though as all water contains some silica.

As for the rest, as others have pointed out, RO water doesn't particularly care about their water profile; likely their water varies greatly so either test it yourself or switch to the local water (which is required by law to give you an accurate water report when requested). Personally, I don't particularly like the idea of using RO water for brewing, you're spending money to get water, then treat it...when you could just treat the local water as needed and probably save a few bucks.

 

[jwelch1103]

"Snort the residue", that's funny!
Like mabrungard said silica is a respiratory hazard when particulates of it are in the air you breathe due to the sharp edges of the silica that cause small cuts on lung tissue which forms scarring in the lung. Silica in water is dissolved in the water.

 

[J187]

If you routinely evaporate your water and snort the residue, you might have a valid concern.

This is a stand-alone, context independent statement, and I applaud it.

 

[Devin]

I contacted the county several times to get a recent report. They never responded to phone calls nor emails. I guess I could walk in there and go grab one of the engineers. I suppose that I could draw a sample myself and send it into Ward labs for evaluation. But, the thought of just using RO seemed easy enough - and the stuff is cheap. But, if it isn't truly "mineral-free", then that could explain this for sure.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Devin]

So you may end up with brilliantly clear beer AND cancer from silica?

In reality, I admittedly don't know much about silica in beer.. I do know that there is controversy as to whether it causes lung disease and cancer in drinking water. Maybe someone will chime in with more info.

I've never tasted anything in my beer from using campden. I use a quarter tab in my mash and a quarter in my sparge. I think it does a great job with chloramines.

It may not have been the campden. They may have just been crappy recipes.

 

[Devin]

I pushed a bit on the county and finally found someone that would talk with me. He gave me the following information for my local water:

Constituent Average (mg/L)
Calcium 24.25
Magnesium 7.19
Bicarbonate 115.0
Sulfate 5.16
Sodium 18.35
Chloride 6.55

ph = 8.01 (higher than I was expecting)

I am confused. I buy the RO water from a machine at the store - which is filtering local water, I assume. Even if the filtering system isn't maintained and doesn't really strip the minerals from the water, the fact is that the water it is starting with doesn't really have a lot of minerals to begin with. So even with my salt additions, there shouldn't be an "excess" of minerals. Maybe I am hunting the wrong thing here.

This latest beer is changing quite a bit. The salty tones are still there, but there is a taste that I can't really describe to well - it almost tastes like an anchor steam beer flavor - which would be good, if it were an anchor steam beer. There is almost a sourness to it. I don't see any signs of infection - the beer is very clear and I didn't see any unusual growths. I only let it ferment for a week - like I usually do with my summer ales (which have the orange zest in them) to try and keep the freshness up. Maybe this is just a young beer thing? My fermentation temps are held within +/- 2 degrees.

Anyway, with this new water information, I think I may try to brew with my local water again - treating with campden and maybe trying the bru'n water program. Hopefully it gets better. This last batch sucks.

 

[Braufessor]

What about the "orange zest" . . .. . from 3 oranges?

*Did you wash the oranges? Fruit like that gets a crap load of pesticides/sprays.

*Is that a lot of "zest?" I don't know.... never done it myself. I do know that I was making bloody mary mix once and my wife put two lemons and two limes through the juicer whole to add in (instead of taking rind off). This was into about 3.5+ gallons of bloody mary mix..... Had to throw it out because the flavor of the lemon/lime rind was so bad and overpowering.

You are right though - your water looks ok. Bicarbonate might be a bit high, but not horrible.

 

[Devin]

I did wash the oranges. This is the same amount of zest I have used in my last two summer ales. The saltiness has reared it's head in brews where I didn't use any zest, though.

 

[mabrungard]

That does not look like that bad of a water for brewing. As mentioned, the alkalinity is a bit high, but easily neutralized with acid. The rest of the content is relatively low. The only other thing I am concerned with would be iron and manganese content. Either of those will add a metallic taste to the water and the beer. Are there orange or black stains on the plumbing fixtures? In not, then there probably isn't much Fe or Mn in the water.

 

[Devin]

No orange and black stains on the fixtures.

 

[user 141939]

So you may end up with brilliantly clear beer AND cancer from silica?



In reality, I admittedly don't know much about silica in beer.. I do know that there is controversy as to whether it causes lung disease and cancer in drinking water. Maybe someone will chime in with more info.



I've never tasted anything in my beer from using campden. I use a quarter tab in my mash and a quarter in my sparge. I think it does a great job with chloramines.

I agree with this guy on the cambden tablets. My tap water is super soft (softer than yours) and I love it. It makes great beer and is like a blank canvas.

It doesn't have lots if silica though.


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[SpeedYellow]

As a data point for you, I had one batch (in 20 years) that came out tasting very salty. So distinctly salty that I had to dump it. I found no explanation and it never happened again, so I could only chalk it up to some weird infection or a problem with one of the grains I bought. Good luck figuring it out.

 

[Devin]

Well, my most recent attempt to eliminate this problem has failed again. This time, I used distilled water instead of the store-bought RO water that I had been using. I then added gypsum and CaCl to bring the profile up to the pale ale profile described by Bru'n water. Bru'n water indicated that I would be ok as far as mash ph with no acid additions, so I decided to skip the lactic acid and see if that was the culprit. I don't have the recipe that I used on hand, but it was something like:

Grains:
10 lb 2 row
1 lb C20
1 lb Vienna
1 lb Munich
0.5 lb carapils
0.5 lb corn sugar

Mashed at 149 for 60 minutes, followed by a mashout at 170 for 10 minutes.

Hops:
1.5 oz Magnum @60
0.75 oz Cascade @10
0.75 oz Centennial @10
1.5 oz Cascade @flameout
0.5 oz Centennial @flameout

dry hopped with 4 oz Cascade and 2 oz Centennial for 4 days.

Fermented at 69. WLP007 yeast.

The brew has heavy bitterness (which I expected - this is almost too much this time, though), decent hop flavor, no hop nose (not sure why), and that weird salty tone to it. It doesn't seem to be as pronounced as the last brew, but it is still there.

I have thought of a couple of other things.

1. I use the BIAB method, so I have a stainless steel vegetable steamer that I put in the bottom of my BK during the mash to protect the bag. I noticed this last time after washing it that there was some type of corrosion/oxidation/something on the small nut where the handle used to screw into. I am wondering if this could have something to do with it. It seems very small, and I don't have this weird flavor with my darker brews (ambers and stouts). This makes me think that this doesn't have anything to do with it, but perhaps something in the darker beers just "cancels" this salty tone. I think I might try to brew without the steamer next time, and just pull the bag up slightly when firing the burner.

2. I thought that perhaps my crush is too fine and I am getting some unwanted tannins. But again, I would notice that in the darker beers, so I don't think that is it. But perhaps this is it?

3. My bag washing method might be causing issues. After brewing, I just toss it in the laundry. After it comes out, I boil it and rinse it to remove any detergent residue. I then boil it again and rinse again to make sure. Perhaps I am not getting all of the residue out? But, I once again go back to asking if this was the cause, then why don't I notice the flavor in the darker beers?

Any other thoughts?

 

[rmyurick]

Why not leave out the CaCl2? Chemically, at least, it is pretty close to NaCl, which is table salt. I would leave it out & add a minimal amount (like 1/2 tsp) gypsum to the mash.

 

[youreanimpulse]

If you are kegging, you may want to replace your lines. That size of dry hop shouldn't give you no nose. A brewing friend of mine had a problem with loss of hop flavor/aroma only on lighter beers and it was his equipment. Replaced all lines including gas and deep cleaned faucets. Fixed the issue. Just an idea.

 

[beerdragon]

Try a different pot altogether. I don't use kitchenware that I use to cook in brewing. Specifically, a vegetable steamer would have salt in the water to impart flavor to the vegetables. It's highly unlikely but there could be a salty residue in the pot.

 

[Devin]

I don't use the vegetable steamer for anything other than brewing. Same with my BK. It only sees wort, nothing else. But, your comment just brought something to mind. I do often use kitchen pots and non-treated water for my yeast starters. When I use dry yeast, I also have just been pulling water from my fridge filter for re-hydration. Might be something there. Thanks for the ideas, everyone.

 

[SpeedYellow]

... I do often use kitchen pots and non-treated water for my yeast starters. When I use dry yeast, I also have just been pulling water from my fridge filter for re-hydration. Might be something there. Thanks for the ideas, everyone.

Neither of those are abnormal methods. Although you really should boil your water then cool it before using to rehydrate dry yeast (but not likely to be your issue).

I don't see any red flags with your gear.

Have you checked all your ingredients for salty flavors? Taste the "RO" water. Toss the lactic acid, CaCl, and gypsum and buy from another source. A few batches with the same big problem = drastic measures.

 

[Devin]

I do boil my yeast water and let it cool. The original RO water and the distilled water this last time tasted fine. I didn't use lactic this last time. I am going down to the city this Friday, I may stop in a different LHBS and get some CaCL and gypsum from them.

Thanks again for the comments.

 

[mabrungard]

Be aware that poor quality CaCl2 can have a bit of NaCl in it. That might be a contributor to saltiness. However, if the CaCl2 was dosed at modest rates, the sodium content in the wort should still have also been quite low.

 

[Barley_Bob]

This is stupid, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. Have you considered that it may just be your personal sense of taste? Personal taste is so difficult to quantify, and maybe you're just a salt tasting savant. Plus, a person's taste preferences change over time. So, maybe when you started to notice a saltiness for the first time, it was really just you shifting your preferences away from salt. It's silly, but it may as well be eliminated as an option.

 

[Devin]

The more reading I do and the more this last beer I brewed changes, I am starting to think that this taste may just be a result of the gypsum. Perhaps my description of "salty" was in error. It isn't like table salt. I can't really describe it (which is readily apparent from this thread).

This last brew seems to have mellowed a bit. I am starting to think that maybe this is just a "harsh bitterness" that I am tasting. Perhaps it doesn't happen in my darker brews because I don't usually add any gypsum (if I do, it is a very small amount). I think on my next pale, I will just skip the gypsum and see what happens. But, that isn't going to happen for a while. Next three brews are a stout, a red, and some graff.

 

[Devin]

Well, this sucks. I just sampled a red ale that I made. No gypsum additions. 3.1 g of Calcium Chloride. I can still detect a hint of the minerally/salty taste. Also seems to have a slightly cleaner-like taste to it. I don't freaking get it. I disassembled my entire keg system and cleaned the bejeebus out of everything with a good soak in PBW. I then rinsed everything thoroughly. I hit my numbers for the day very well.

I am at a loss here. I think that I have eliminated everything other than the CO2 I am using causing a problem, or possibly my base malt - those are the only other consistent things in the beers. I use Rahr 2-row. Or perhaps the CaCl that I use sucks. I don't know.

To top it off, the stout that I made for T-day tastes bad, too. This really sucks because the last stout that I made was one of the best beers I have ever had. All that I changed was adding some flaked oatmeal, and I had to sub in a different yeast because they were out of the London yeast. So I used Windsor dry. I can't imagine it causing that much of a difference. But, this stout is just thin tasting and there is no head on it.

What a disappointing day. I get my hopes up that "this next change" will fix things - but it doesn't.

 

[beerdragon]

Has anyone else tasted your brews? Do they come to the same conclusion?

The only thing I can think of, solicit the advice of local Brewers and the lhbs. They can help immensely by joining you on a brew day or have you join them on theirs. It could keep you from playing the guessing game when trying to figure this out.

I get the frustration and discouragement. It happened to me and I stopped brewing for a few years until I got inspired again. Hang in there, have the folks at the lhbs taste your brews.