Saison question

[azazel1024]

I am planning on brewing up my first Belgian Saison and I have zero idea what temperature to ferment it at. I've read conflicting things from cool to wamr to hot (90F?!?). Any suggestions on what temp I should ferment at? My LHBS suggested mid to upper 70's the yeast is the Danstar Belle Saison dry yeast (which, also never used before).

In addition I need spicing suggestions.

My recipe is as follows (AG BiaB).
4 Gallon batch, 5 Gallon boil
5lbs Pale Belgian
2.5lb Vienna
3/4lb Biscuit
1/4 Special roast
1/2lb white wheat
Mash 60 mins at 150F
1/3rd oz Cascade, 1/2oz each of vanguard and Styrian 60min
1/4oz each of vanguard and styrian 15 min
dry hop 1/4oz vanguard and 1/4 styrian for probably 1-2 weeks

1.063OG, 1.013FG, 6.6% ABV, 36IBU, 9SRM

My spice question is, I am not sure what to use. I was thinking of putting in 1/2oz of bitter orange with the last 10 minutes of boil. I was also thinking of a little lemon zest. Maybe a quarter ounce?

No firm ideas. Obviously looking for a final beer with some zestiness to it, maybe a little funk.

Thoughts on fermentation temperature? This will probably be done around early June, so my options are, basement fermentation which would be around 74F on the concrete by then (probably, might be as cool as 72-73F still or possibly up to 75F, but my basement usually doesn't hit 75-76F until well in to August unless it turns in to a really hot summer). I could ferment upstairs with it in a closet (which is air conditioned) and would likely range 78-80F, or I could do outdoors in my garage, which is going to be total dependent on weather, but central Maryland, that could be from 80-100F.

Part of the reason why I am going with a Saison is because of the generally higher fermentation temperatures it supposedly like (I think) and I don't have much for temperature control right now. My basement most of the year is great (as cold as 60F on the concrete in the winter if I twist my wife's arm in to letting me turn the heat down a little in the basement to around 67F in the fall and spring and the early summer it generally only hit 69-70 till July, but July-mid September its usually mid 70's to lower upper 70's).

 

[rlonardo]

Lemon zest works well. I would also suggest some grains of paradise for some spiciness.

Last year I fermented a Saison relatively low (65-68) and it ended up a bit too spicy. I think that if you fermented 75+ it would be good.

 

[beergolf]

Belle Saison is pretty tolerant of different temps. It works drom the high 60's all the way up to 90. Your basement will work fine.

For your first Saison I would just omit the spices, but a 1/2 oz of bitter orange peel works well in a saison. If you omit the spices you can learn the flavor that the yeast contibutes. Also I would drop the special roast, but it is your recipe. I like my saisons pretty simple. They are all about the yeast flavor.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I prefer Saisons without spices. Belle Saison is also pretty easy to work with. At least it was the one time I used it. Mid 70s and plenty of character and the right amount of attenuation with no hassle.

Agreed about the Special Roast. Especially when you've already got some Biscuit in there. I like to use a little Aromatic malt, which is fairly similar to Biscuit, but I use a little less. And you may want to either drop the mash temp a couple degrees, or add some simple sugar, or even both. Then again, I like my Saisons to be bone dry. If the FG isn't <1.006 it's too high in my opinion (which is my opinion).

I think most of those temp ranges would be good, but you'll want to avoid temperature drops as much as possible. May not be a problem with Belle Saison as much as other strains, but I'd still be wary of it. Better bet is to start cooler and warm up from there. My go-to Saison starts in the high 60s and I ramp it up slowly all the way to 101F.

 

[DarthCitra]

Im brewing a saison with WLP565 and have read that 75-85F is perfect! Your upstairs closet would work out perfect for this yeast!

 

[GnenieGone]

As a relative newbee, I was wondering why to use Cascade as a bittering hop? Couldn't one use .2oz of nugget? Just curious.

I too am looking for a quality saison recipe to try.

 

[azazel1024]

Sorry, crazy week.

Thank you for all of the suggestions! I'll probably drop the mash to more like 148F to go drier. I was considering a little sugar and maybe upping the batch size a little more to keep around the same gravity, but thin out the mouth feel.

For the spices, I'll give it some thoughts. Excellent points on just trying to let it stand on its own for my first one. I'll also think on the special roast.

The Cascade is there for bittering simply because a few months back I bought a pound of Cascade since I use it in a lot of recipes and I like it as a relatively clean bittering hop and I didn't want to buy another ounce of Styrian or Vanguard to use to get to the right IBUs (I wanted high 30's on it).

I'll check my basement temps when I go to ferment and see if they are in the right range or if upstairs is better (I'd rather ferment it on the warm side rather the cool side. This time. I am sure I'll make another sooner rather than later).

Just gotta knock out a couple more summer brews before I have to start in on my fall brews. Got this one, then a dark wheat peach and then I think I have to experiment with my wife's Pumkin Ale (she demands a Schlafly clone or he gets the hose again) and then it'll probably be all fall beers (Cranberry Stout, Dunkleweizen, Double IPA recipes on deck and I can also start opening the Oktoberfest I brewed back in February).

 

[Brews]

You could use sirachi ace at 60minutes for some nice lemon accent and use a pound of honey at flame out to help dry it. Also, I've had good luck starting my fermentation temp. at about 70 for about three days and ramping it up to about 80 to finish.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[ericbw]

I think if you go warmer it's better. I used ommegang yeast last year and got it in the 80s.

You're right about using sugar to up the ABV and thin it out.

 

[smokey810]

Definitely want to mash low. 148 is good. Consider a 90 minute rest. You're going to this bone dry. FG should be below 1.010.

I let it start fermentation at 68 and free raise it to above 80. This way you don't get a harsh alcohol hear but you'll get the nice esters. Also encourages high attenuation. Shouldn't be hard to get the high temperature just by wrapping the fermenter in a blanket a couple days in.

 

[azazel1024]

So on raising the temp...suggestions? I generally do zero temperature control, but based on temps readings if my basement is, say, 67F, then sitting on the concrete my carboy generally runs to about 65F and even during high krausen, at most it'll nudge up to room temperature. In the summer it might be slightly warmer. Say, 75F in the basement, 72F on the pad and during high krausen it might hit 76F.

Should I start fermentation in the basement for, say, 24 hrs and then move it upstairs where it'll probably range from 76-80F room temperature? Or should I wrap it in blankets/towels it let it naturally raise its temperature?

 

[fearwig]

Belle Saison is great in the low 60s and very tolerant as it goes higher. I go warmer for lo-grav and cooler for hi-grav to get the right balance. It will attenuate heavily no matter what you do with it, so don't mash low if you're starting around 1.040, but a low mash is fine if you're up in the 1.060s as you are here.

Your FG will probably NOT be 1.013 with this recipe at 148F. Expect a FG closer to maybe 1.002-1.006 (7.5-8% ABV). If I use 10-15% sucrose on a 146 mash I have seen this yeast go to ~0.997 at 8.5% ABV. That was starting at 63F and rising to 70s IIRC, finished in like a week and a half.

I would not dry hop for two weeks, either. 4-7 days is fine.

 

[fearwig]

So on raising the temp...suggestions? I generally do zero temperature control, but based on temps readings if my basement is, say, 67F, then sitting on the concrete my carboy generally runs to about 65F and even during high krausen, at most it'll nudge up to room temperature. In the summer it might be slightly warmer. Say, 75F in the basement, 72F on the pad and during high krausen it might hit 76F.

Should I start fermentation in the basement for, say, 24 hrs and then move it upstairs where it'll probably range from 76-80F room temperature? Or should I wrap it in blankets/towels it let it naturally raise its temperature?

Belle Saison doesn't need a temperature rise for attenuation like some saison yeasts. So if you want lots of fruit, start it at room temp upstairs. If you want a more balanced profile with more clove (I would), start it in the basement and let it rise on its own. Either way you don't need to move it for it to finish, but it may finish a little faster upstairs. Just watch your blowoff, I do this in buckets and it goes a little nuts if the wort is over 1.060 (especially with wheat).

 

[azazel1024]

Dead post follow up. IIRC it finished at 1.001. Wow. Interestingly it has a little more sweetness than I expected. Either I need to drop the vienna a little or mash at a slightly lower temp.

Maybe swap out the Vienna for a pound of rye. I had also gone with 1oz of lemon peel and 1/2oz of sweet orange. I think next time I need to double both to really get it zesty. I am probably also going to change out the special roast for half a pound of honey malt. Maybe add in a pound of sugar.

Just see how that goes. Rye for spiciness offset with the zest from the lemon and orange. Dry it out a little more with moving some of the malts to sugar and a lower mash to keep the OG roughly the same, but dropping the FG even more. It'll be a summer brew again though (maybe late May and ferment it in my garage before it gets really hot out).

 

[FenderSteve]

I was thinking about brewing a saison for a party that is 7 weeks away. What would you say is a good age to serve a saison?

The fresher the better, say about 4 weeks out, or would brewing it now to allow some maturation taste best?

 

[youreanimpulse]

Maturation is essential I think. My saisons are generally better after at least a couple months in the bottle. So give it whatever time you can.

 

[troglodytes]

I use the https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/cottage-house-saison-254684/ recipe as my go to base, and I tweak hops, yeast or misc additions (I usually add a healthy amount of ginger). I start drinking the beer after bottle conditioning for 3 weeks, but it really hits it stride after about 2 months in bottle. I finished my last bomber of my last batch which was in the bottle about 3 months and it was the best one of the batch.

 

[azazel1024]

Mine seemed to hit peak around 2 months in the bottle. It stayed good until the last drop (maybe 3 months ago is when I finished the last bottle).

Going to have some fun with saison's this summer now that I have proper temp control. I am going to maybe try a split batch with one at maybe 78F and one at 88F and see what kind of character each develops.