Saison Feedback

[jhiza]

Recently I submitted a couple saison's to a homebrew competition. I received feedback on both of them that they were malt forward.

Both of them have more traditional malt bills with:
Batch 1:
10# belgian pilsner
1# munich
1# vienna

The only hop in this was saaz with a total IBU of 23.2
Yeast: 3724

As this was my first all grain batch ever, and I was overly aggressive during the boil and was left with a higher alcohol beer than I originally intended at around 8.38 and an exceptionally long fermentation that was stuck for a bit with the 3724 at 50 days.

Batch 2:
10# belgian pilsner
1.5# munich
1# flaked oats

Hops:
EKG, Tettnang, Rakau for a total IBU of 23.7

Yeast: 565


What could I do differently to make this beer less malt driven? Add sugar to thin it out and reduce the body and reduce the malt % a bit?

Just looking for some feedback that I can take for my future saisons. If more information is needed, I have notes.

Thanks

 

[j1n]

#2 looks better. id replace the 1.5lbs of Munich with wheat malt and do .5 flaked oats and .5 munich instead of 1lb of flaked oats.

3724 likes to stall around 1.03. i had to bump my temp up to 90 to get it to finish. id use both wyeast 3711 and 3724 so you dont have stall issues. Would ferment at mid 70s and bump it up higher if it stalls at all.

 

[teamcoaster]

There are so many different ways to brew a saison that what I'm going to say is likely to be contradicted by many others.

My base malt is pilsner and I include 10-20% oats or wheat and at least 10% sugar.

If you want to play around with the color, adjust the amounts of vienna or munich, but I don't think you need both.

I like to use local honey as the sugar component. Honey not only helps it dry out, it yields some flavor notes.

My preferred yeast is 3724. Pitch in the mid to low 70's and ramp the temps up over 8 to 12 days to as close to 90F as you can get it. Hold it there until FG is achieved, usually in the 1.002-.004 range. Be patient. I've had them finish in 14 days but more typically, it's 21-28 days.

My saisons taste and smell of citrus, grapefruit, actually, with the taste of honey at the finish. They have never been described as malty.

I have used 565, which is supposed to be the same as 3724, but I haven't liked the result as much. YMMV.

Hope this helps.

 

[DrKnow]

I'd drop the Munich and/or Vienna. These are more "malty" flavored malts. If you need to do something more complex than straight Pilsner, use a pound or two of wheat or spelt or rye malts (choose one). Mash low 148 to 150F. The DuPont strain you are using is finnicky and needs the temp to rise at just the right time or it tends to stall. It's a great strain but some other strains are easier to use and make great saisons. Saison should be dry. Make sure you are pitching enough healthy yeast and giving them enough time to get it down to about 1.006 or lower.

 

[jhiza]

Thanks for the feedback a few more notes:

#1, mashed @148.5 for 60m
#2, mashed @152 for 75m

My main interest in adding the vienna and/or munich was more around color than anything. So if they are negatively impacting flavor profile, ok.

I know 3724 stalls, but am ok with patience (within reason), as I've read it can yield great results as well. I raised temp, but might have been overly aggressive, unsure how sensitive it is in regards to timing of stepping the temp. I was at 90 for weeks I'm dedicating the year to saisons, so i'm exploring a lot of options with each (split) batch I brew.

Another important note re: FG:
#1: 1.008 I was irritated by 50 days of fermentation and "called it", so if the FG is contributing to the malt profile, at least I could understand why.
#2: 1.011, not as low and dry as it should be...and THAT took 29 days.

Obviously can let those dry out more.

FWIW the next 2 bills that are fermenting:
#3
7.5# pils
2.3# munich
1.1# wheat malt

and then have a copy of those fermenting with a 3711 and belle saison, each (which i've used both before in my extract life)

#4
7.5# pils
2# rye malt
1# rye flaked

copy of above one with 565, one with belle saison

I remember in my extract kits they'd always have candi syrup, i'm assuming the intent is to gain ABV with the reduction of malt profile, is that a true statement?

I've spent an enormous amount of time reading (my wife can attest), so I may be "new" to the experiences, but not the concepts.

Thanks for the feedback, all.