S#!T costumer service with Better Bottle

[Jcpilot]

I have five better bottle fermenters. I also have better bottle stoppers, racking adapters, simple flow valves, dry tap airlocks, and hose adapters for all of them. After fermenting a batch of pale ale I disassembled the valve and racking port for cleaning only to discover that the racking port base had cracked almost 270 degrees around. In early January of 2015 I emailed better bottle to see what might cause this, and if this would be covered under warranty. The racking adapter was only three months old at this point. I received a response from Walter saying "That is very odd. Are you getting your carboys and fittings clean between batches. How do you clean and sanitize?" I detailed that I disassemble the valve and clean all components with warm pbw and slosh a cotton rag around the fermenter to dislodge any solids, and then rinse thoroughly. Before use, I sanitize with Star San I received no response to my email. I send another email to the same address on January 23rd and that gets bounced back to me as a bad email address. On February 26th I send an email to a different address I found on their site detailing my experience with pictures. No response. I called them in early April to get an answer to this and we played phone tag a bit. I finally got someone on the phone and the first question he asked is "How do you clean it?" As soon as I mentioned pbw he essentially said "That stuff is caustic and you ruined the part". "Directions on how to clean our products are on our website." I had to dig to find them, and yes they do warn about prolonged soaks with pbw. They do not however say not to use pbw. He also said it would be more expensive for them to send a replacement than it would be for me to go buy one. Am I missing something here? More expensive for whom? Their accessories are expensive! This guy changed the subject to tell me about how their phone lines went down and they had a flood that ruined very expensive equipment. You just lost a customer buddy and I don't give a F@#k about your phone lines or flood, that's what insurance is for. I told him he just lost a customer and I would be replacing my fermenters. He asked me what I would replace them with and threw me a sales pitch about the dangers of glass and expense of stainless. I will be selling all of my unused BB components on ebay shortly and buying a stainless conical or going to glass carboys. I haven't been this mad at a manufacturer in a long time. Don't expect Better Bottle to be any help if you have a problem. Rant over.

 

[JKoravos]

So, don't clean their product with the most popular and effective cleaner for homebrewers? Nice.

 

[passedpawn]

Looks like a defect to me. Yes, that's poor customer service.

 

[IslandLizard]

Really piss poor customer "service" there. Glad you tried and reported back here. Their stuff is way, way overpriced. PET is used for disposable pretzel containers, for Pete's sake. How much does that broken plastic spigot part really cost them? $0.50 plus a stamp to get it to you?

I'd stay away from glass for routine fermentations (sours etc., excepted), given the danger. Plastic buckets are cheap and work very well, but racking can be a bit tricky, and difficult to do it under CO2, which is not a real deal breaker anyway.

SS is great, but much (15-20x) pricier than plastic buckets.

But since you got the investment in your BBs just use them.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

Don't sell them. They already profited from the sale. You'll be punishing yourself.

 

[Homercidal]

That's an odd place for that part to break. It looks like an odd place for it to break even under pressure from bending.

PBW read sheet says it's a buffered alkaline wash to replace caustic soda cleaners. It says it's safe on plastics, even polycarbonate, which is susceptible to strong cleaners.

I think BB screwed up on this.

 

[Hello]

@Jcpilot it looks like a defect to me. I would attempt to escalate.

So, don't clean their product with the most popular and effective cleaner for homebrewers? Nice.

Actually, the idea of using caustic wash on plastic is a no-no. I did not know that either but a brewer told me not to let my plastic sit in PBW for any real length of time. While it is a popular cleaner, it's still caustic and you're still talking about plastic. I don't defend BB though. Their customer service on this matter based on the OP's story is despicable.

 

[jwelch1103]

I know how you feel!

I had the EXACT SAME problem last summer with a one or three month old fitting (I had bought two a few months apart and couldn't tell which one cracked). Up until dealing with "Walter" I had nothing but good thoughts about BB products, I found them expensive but what are you gonna do in a small town?

I was asked how I cleaned and sanitized and responded that I disassemble and soak in tap water overnight and then brush with a toothbrush, reassemble and sanitize the whole BB and valve/racking port with properly mixed StarSan.

He responded to that by telling me that had I read their web page on "proper" cleaning I'd of known not to use caustic cleaners!?!?!? I asked what is caustic about tap water and/or StarSan? To which he said, and I quote "My bad. I meant to say that Star San is an acid cleaner. Send us the cracked valve and we will send you a replacement; however, please follow our washing and sanitizing recommendations in the future."

I didn't argue with him any further remembering the adage about arguing with a fool but I did send the part back and got a replacement.

If and when you want to sell your BBs and associated parts contact me, seriously I'll buy them. Sooner or later the owner of that company will find something else for Walter to do, I hope!

 

[jbord37]

While it does sound as though customer service was unacceptable in this case, the bit about the flood is true. I have been unable to purchase BB for a while now at my LHBS and they were told by the manufacturer that their facility is down right now due to a flood so all of their parts may be difficult to come by at the moment. At least that much was not BS

 

[electrolight]

The whole time I was reading I was thinking "ok bud calm down, no need to overreact"... Then I read

"He also said it would be more expensive for them to send a replacement than it would be for me to go buy one. Am I missing something here?"

And a little nuke went off in my head... I'm glad I'm all glass and never spent a cent on them...

 

[iijakii]

Any damage from that spigot sitting in a caustic solution wouldn't cause a clean break like that with the rest of it looking perfectly fine. That's a piss-poor attempt at shifting blame.

Also, with it being such a clean break it tells you it's not force-induced ie: not user error on your part putting too much pressure on it.

I have some experience with injection molding, but I don't pretend to be an expert at all. Try to cut that spigot in half, cleanly, and you can tell if the plastic was poured too hot or too cold. If it was cold you might see some air-bubbled, while too hot and it's going to look a bit melted. I doubt you'll see too hot, but cold sounds possible. Also with injection molding you'll have a couple points where the plastic is introduced, and where those meet is called a knit-line. You'll see where the fibers meet, and they don't mesh up perfectly. I'd be interested to see if the knit line is along that point.

 

[sudbuddy]

I think they're gonna go out of business soon. I haven't been able to order them through any of my suppliers for months now due to "manufacturing issues." Basically, I think it's just a bad product, they can't figure out how to improve it, and people are getting wise. What's the point of a plastic carboy anyway? It mixes all the drawbacks of a plastic bucket and a glass carboy with none of the benefits. They aren't even cheap like buckets or easy to clean like glass. I don't get it.

 

[orangehero]

Actually, the idea of using caustic wash on plastic is a no-no. I did not know that either but a brewer told me not to let my plastic sit in PBW for any real length of time. While it is a popular cleaner, it's still caustic and you're still talking about plastic. I don't defend BB though. Their customer service on this matter based on the OP's story is despicable.

Many plastics are perfectly inert to bases. ABS, PVC, Polypropylene, or Silicone have no issues even with 80% NaOH. Unfortunately PET is not one of them.

 

[Homercidal]

Any damage from that spigot sitting in a caustic solution wouldn't cause a clean break like that with the rest of it looking perfectly fine. That's a piss-poor attempt at shifting blame.

Also, with it being such a clean break it tells you it's not force-induced ie: not user error on your part putting too much pressure on it.

I have some experience with injection molding, but I don't pretend to be an expert at all. Try to cut that spigot in half, cleanly, and you can tell if the plastic was poured too hot or too cold. If it was cold you might see some air-bubbled, while too hot and it's going to look a bit melted. I doubt you'll see too hot, but cold sounds possible. Also with injection molding you'll have a couple points where the plastic is introduced, and where those meet is called a knit-line. You'll see where the fibers meet, and they don't mesh up perfectly. I'd be interested to see if the knit line is along that point.

The right cleaner, with the right amount of contact time, could make a knit-line crack if there were some pressure applied to it.

But I don't think there should be a knit-line where that crack is, and I HIGHLY doubt PBW would do that even if he left it soaking overnight after each batch.

You could imagine a crack from the molding process, but the fact is, it's hard to crack most plastics when they are still hot from the machine. I'm not sure what material that is, but if the part were stuck to a lifter or slide I think it would be most likely to bend, rather than crack.

 

[losMythos]

Not for nothing but I think it's bad business to make Brewing parts that can't be cleaned with brewing cleaner....Regardless it's not worth losing a repeat customer over a part like that...

 

[Homercidal]

Not for nothing but I think it's bad business to make Brewing parts that can't be cleaned with brewing cleaner....Regardless it's not worth losing a repeat customer over a part like that...

Most other plastics don't have many of the advantages that PET has for brewing with. I'd say it's susceptibility to extended soaking in some cleansers is a small price to pay for the advantages.

 

[Eucrid]

The whole time I was reading I was thinking "ok bud calm down, no need to overreact"... Then I read

"He also said it would be more expensive for them to send a replacement than it would be for me to go buy one. Am I missing something here?"

And a little nuke went off in my head... I'm glad I'm all glass and never spent a cent on them...

Even if that was true all they had to do was send him a cheque for the price of the part. With reasonably inexpensive stuff like this I just want to know the supplier/manufacturer is going to treat me fairly.

 

[blizz81]

I think they're gonna go out of business soon. I haven't been able to order them through any of my suppliers for months now due to "manufacturing issues." Basically, I think it's just a bad product, they can't figure out how to improve it, and people are getting wise. What's the point of a plastic carboy anyway? It mixes all the drawbacks of a plastic bucket and a glass carboy with none of the benefits. They aren't even cheap like buckets or easy to clean like glass. I don't get it.

To me, they're still pretty cheap (I think the Vintage Shop carboys are like $15-20 at the LHBS?), and don't have quite the permeability (lid) and headspace issues that buckets do. They also generally have better blowoff tube support than most buckets, off the shelf / unmodified. It doesn't mix the drawbacks of a glass carboy - I mean, pretty much the only drawback of glass carboys is they'll kill you. You have the LHBS and were seeking opinions of how to make your shop better, right? I would suggest specifically here to not discount a product based on your opinions as your customer base may very well want plastic carboys.

Many plastics are perfectly inert to bases. ABS, PVC, Polypropylene, or Silicone have no issues even with 80% NaOH. Unfortunately PET is not one of them.

Reading through this thread, I tried seeking more information about extended PBW soaks with PET but didn't find much other than 1) a lot of people still doing it / soaking in Oxyclean and 2) the impacts being clouding the plastic and eventually cracking the plastic. Are there any other concerns to take into account? I generally soak my VS PETs in PBW overnight to clean them.

 

[sudbuddy]

You have the LHBS and were seeking opinions of how to make your shop better, right? I would suggest specifically here to not discount a product based on your opinions as your customer base may very well want plastic carboys.

Very good point. I do offer them when they are available, they just haven't been for a few months. How do you like the Vintage Shop ones? I offered them as substitutes for a few customers but they didn't want them, and I've never used them so I had no feedback to give.

 

[blizz81]

Very good point. I do offer them when they are available, they just haven't been for a few months. How do you like the Vintage Shop ones? I offered them as substitutes for a few customers but they didn't want them, and I've never used them so I had no feedback to give.

So far, I think they'd make a good substitute at least as far as fermenters go for the OP if he really wants to scorch the earth re: everything BB. I've read that they're a little better constructed than the BBs, but I can't vouch for that personally (both on account of lack of engineering knowledge & having never used a BB). Would still prefer glass if there wasn't the worry of death and dismemberment, but the fact that the PET carboys are super lightweight is a nice plus. As long as I don't find out cleaning a PET with PBW is slowly killing me, I'd prefer them to buckets.

 

[phyllobeddo]

I think they're gonna go out of business soon. I haven't been able to order them through any of my suppliers for months now due to "manufacturing issues." Basically, I think it's just a bad product, they can't figure out how to improve it, and people are getting wise. What's the point of a plastic carboy anyway? It mixes all the drawbacks of a plastic bucket and a glass carboy with none of the benefits. They aren't even cheap like buckets or easy to clean like glass. I don't get it.

I've had pretty good luck with Better Bottles so far. I have one 6 gallon, and three 3 gallon fermenters made by them. One thing that I like about them is the fact that both the 6 gallon and the 3 gallon version fit in my fermentation chamber (wine fridge) but not at the same time. It's a close fit with the 6 gallon BB in there (by itself), but it works. Also, I can fit two 3 gallon bottles side by side in the wine fridge so I can ferment two different batches at the same time. However, I am retiring the 3 gallon BB that I bought in either 2006 or 2007 due to the fact that it has an infection, but I was able to order a new 3 gallon BB today from Morebeer! The other sites that I looked at did not have any 3 gallon versions available.

I've never had to deal with their customer service, and I hope that I don't have to if it's anything like the OP had to deal with. It's not all that hard to treat customers right.

 

[heckels]

As long as I don't find out cleaning a PET with PBW is slowly killing me, I'd prefer them to buckets.

Cleaning PET with PBW won't slowly kill you, but your significant other might when you end up with a carboy full of beer on the floor because the bottom cracked.

 

[madscientist451]

I think the message here is that the plastic fittings from better bottle can be unreliable and won't be replaced if they crack.
I've been using better bottles for several years and prefer them over buckets and glass.
I used to use a bucket with a spigot as a primary but stopped doing that when the spigot failed and spilled 5 gallons of almost done porter on to a wood floor.
Live and learn, I don't use fermentors with plastic fittings at the bottom.

 

[unionrdr]

I traded for a 6 gallon BB on here & there's no spigot on it. I prefer the BB's that way, as there's less chance for failure. I only use it for a secondary. And that rarely. But I came up with an easy way to get the red & white Italian spigots to seal tightly & easily.
I got this brown rubber gasket material from Lowe's that looks like the kind we used to use for bike inner tube patches.

I used one of the spigot seals to trace onto the material & cut it out with a razor knife. I then sanitized it in Starsan & put the spigot through the mounting hole with the new seal first, then the stock seal & lock lug.

This makes it easier to get a tight seal with out smashing the seals out from under the sealing rings of the spigot. It won't leak from their again.

 

[Homercidal]

I traded for a 6 gallon BB on here & there's no spigot on it. I prefer the BB's that way, as there's less chance for failure. I only use it for a secondary. And that rarely. But I came up with an easy way to get the red & white Italian spigots to seal tightly & easily.
I got this brown rubber gasket material from Lowe's that looks like the kind we used to use for bike inner tube patches.

I used one of the spigot seals to trace onto the material & cut it out with a razor knife. I then sanitized it in Starsan & put the spigot through the mounting hole with the new seal first, then the stock seal & lock lug.

This makes it easier to get a tight seal with out smashing the seals out from under the sealing rings of the spigot. It won't leak from their again.

Rubber? I'm wondering if it adds rubber flavor or smell to the beer. I've always heard to use silicone for gaskets and washers. You can find sheets of it pretty cheap in the kitchen section of any big store.

 

[watermelon83]

So I shouldn't buy any eBay better bottles because the parts are ruined?

Seriously, that's screwed up.

 

[govner1]

The OP's customer service experience is definitely not acceptable. But, I've been using BB's since I began brewing 4+ years ago & my experience has been nothing but positive. I have 3 ea. 5 & 6 gal sizes for primary & 6 ea. 3 gal. for (gasp) secondary.
They are light weight, easy to clean ( I use B-Brite) and don't have the risks inherent w/ glass carboys, especially the Chinese made crap flooding into the market.
I never found the need to use the accessories.
I'll be sticking w/ my BB's and hopefully by the time I need replacements or more they will have sorted out their manufacturing issues.

 

[bja]

I mean, pretty much the only drawback of glass carboys is they'll kill you.

Glass carboys don't kill. People kill.