S-04 Stuck/Never started... in my fresh pressed juice

[limetwist]

Got good detailed instructions (it seemed) from new local HB store, but not very helpful troubleshooting.

5 gallons fresh pressed cider OG 1.042; temp of liquid: 68*
campden tablets
waited day and a half; sprinkled in the S-04 Yeast, 1/2 tsp energizer, 8 tsp nutrient. (instructions given by HB store guy). Stirred daily.

42 hours and still no activity on surface or in airlock, checked SG, still at 1.042. Added 2-1/2 tsp more Yeast Energizer as I've done before with stuck wines. That was 8 hours ago, still nothing.

They recommended sprinkling another packet of S-04 on top, waiting for activity, then stirring, because "sometimes it happens". If that's the case, and I re-pitch, it should really take off with last night's energizer, correct?

It doesn't smell bad, just less "cidery" and more "yeasty/chemically".

Thanks for any input--

 

[Maylar]

This is really odd. How old was the yeast? Had it gone past the expiration date? Did you let it reach room temp before pitching it?

1.042 is low for fresh cider, but it should ferment fine.

Maybe the yeast had been exposed to heat or something... but yes, pitch a fresh packet and see what happens. I think I'd even rehydrate the yeast per instructions first.

 

[Genacide]

I've had it be 2+ days after using campden until I could get yeast to take off by repitching.

 

[limetwist]

They pulled it out of a refrigerator display, expiration is 3/2017. Bought it last week. I found another place to buy the yeast, so I'm headed there this afternoon.

This is frustrating! The juice is awesome, too, so the last thing I want to do is waste it. I can bring the bucket back upstairs to add a couple degrees, but in my wine experience the lower the better - but I could very well be wrong with cider --

Safale recommends this for rehydrating, maybe I should do half and half... I'm really anxious about this now.
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°
c ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle
the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the
wort using aeration or by wort addition.

 

[limited]

How many campden tablets did you use?

 

[limetwist]

7... HB guy said to use more since mine were a couple years old. It was an unopened bottle, but no seal in it. I usually only go with 1 per gallon. :-/

 

[Yooper]

7... HB guy said to use more since mine were a couple years old. It was an unopened bottle, but no seal in it. I usually only go with 1 per gallon. :-/

It's a bit oversulfited- stir it thoroughly to encourage the sulfite to dissipate several times a day, and it should get going. I'd definitely get more yeast in there after stirring/whipping it.

 

[limetwist]

Thanks, all. I'm in process of rehydrating the new packet. Whipping the heck out of the primary in the meantime. I'll update--

Thanks!

 

[limetwist]

Quick question. Had a nice foamy pint glass of live yeasties, got it to the same temp as the juice, and slowly poured it in. Do I stir this in? Or cover, airlock, and leave it alone? (and hopefully the bubbling airlock will appease my curiosity in the morning).

Thanks in advance

 

[JimRausch]

I know you said fresh pressed cider, but are you sure it isn't treated with sorbate? That would definitely slow things down.

 

[limetwist]

I know you said fresh pressed cider, but are you sure it isn't treated with sorbate? That would definitely slow things down.

No sorbate, I was dodging the bees and cutting apples

 

[chevalcider]

I have three batches on the go right now. This is the first year that I've made starters and I am really liking the results. Two starters were liquid yeasts, WLP775 Cider and WYEAST 4184 Sweet Mead. I was told to make a starter as they were nearly a week in transit through an online purchase. The third starter was a dry Cider House Select yeast. It was a healthy start as well. My starters were 48 hours old at pitching and I sulfited 36-48 hours before pitching. Airlocks were bubbling within 8 hours of pitching. That's faster than any wine yeast I've tried in the past. I have a few packs of S-04 and I'd like to try one of them in a starter. If only I could find a few more apples to grind!

That said, I had a batch stall last fall. I still don't know what caused it and I can't say that a starter would have solved the issue. I finally was able to get it going but it was sluggish the whole way through and then ended up being dumped at a year of age due to unbearable taste.

 

[limetwist]

There are *always* a few more apples, aren't there? . I have 2 oj bottles full in the fridge and one frozen. I figure I don't really need to turn it all into alcohol, but it's always tempting.

Honestly my last batches of cider were in 2008. I have all the notes yet. One with wine yeast and one with us-05 that stalled, and they both ended up dumped. I've made apple and pear wine since then, but I'm not a huge fan of dry wine.

How do you make your "starters"? I just followed Safale's instructions for rehydration tonight and was at least happy to see (and smell) live yeast going in. I used to keep yeast alive for weeks on the counter, feeding it with sugar. I was full speed into fruit wine and just kept cultures of my two favorites till things slowed down. My mother was actually my guide on that, having done it for her breads.

I didn't stir or aerate my must again after pouring in the creamy yeast tonight, hopefully the airlock will show some action tomorrow.

 

[siletzspey]

A few weeks ago with 4 different yeasts (cote, red, notty, S-04) in 4 3-ga carboys, 3 of 4 (cote, notty, S-04) failed to take despite proper hydrating. A week later, I bought new packets from a different store, and the 3 failed carboys were bubbling within a day, and another 4 3-ga carboys that were just pressed also bubbled within a day.

I still wonder about over-dosing the first 4 with k-meta (1/4 tsp per 3-ga), but I also wonder about bad packets.

Good luck, and don't panic yet!

--SiletzSpey

 

[Genacide]

I generally use 1/2 a campden tab per gallon of cider with good results.

 

[chevalcider]

How do you make your "starters"? I just followed Safale's instructions for rehydration tonight and was at least happy to see (and smell) live yeast going in. I used to keep yeast alive for weeks on the counter, feeding it with sugar. I was full speed into fruit wine and just kept cultures of my two favorites till things slowed down. My mother was actually my guide on that, having done it for her breads.

I didn't stir or aerate my must again after pouring in the creamy yeast tonight, hopefully the airlock will show some action tomorrow.

I researched starters on this forum. My first was 2 cans of FAJC and 3 cans of water (tested 1.06) boiled for 10 minutes and then cooled before going into a sanitized 1 gallon carboy. It was 1/3 full. My second try was a similar amount of fresh pressed cider boiled. My liquid yeasts were just poured in after cooling. I sprinkled the dry yeast on a little juice left in the pot to rehydrate and then poured that into the rest of the juice in the carboy. The starters were all going like gang busters within 12 hours. A few were sooner. They picked up where they left off when I dumped into juice.

 

[limetwist]

So confused... nothing after 12 hours of pouring that beautiful frothy yeast in. Stirred this morning checked tonight and the airlock had moved (heart jumped!). but it still wasn't bubbling. Opened it up to see about a 3" diameter round of light foam in the center. That's it. Stirred it again. I don't know what else to do. Four days now, over 5 days since the campden.

How long before I give up and try to recover my apple juice? It just seems like this should have taken off 24 hours after live yeast was introduced into aerated yeast-nutriented must/wort free from campden tablets for 4 days. . This is really depressing. Temp of must is 69 degrees. I didn't check SG today. I don't want to waste this juice. It's an mix of my honeycrisps and the 3 kinds my parents have, and it's awesome to drink... I think it would make a great hard cider too.... Is it already too late to just somehow convert it back to n/a juice? Or have the yeast nutrients and yeast already funked it up?

Sorry to be a downer... just frustrated. :-(

Also, I've been diligent with sanitizing everything.

 

[chevalcider]

This is where I stop commenting and wait for someone else with more experience to answer you question. Sorry! I know how it feels to have a batch go wrong.

 

[slym2none]

You have some foam going, I assume that wasn't from pouring the AJ in the fermenting vessel. That's krausen, as small as it may be. To me, it sounds like it is fermenting, just wait and see if it makes thicker krausen. Even if it doesn't, that doesn't mean it isn't fermenting.

 

[kgressler]

Im no expert but if you have started seeing some foam on the top it probably has started and if you dont see any airlock movement it could be due to not being air tight.
Give it a week and then test the gravity. Its the only way you will know if its fermenting.

 

[Yooper]

So confused... nothing after 12 hours of pouring that beautiful frothy yeast in. Stirred this morning checked tonight and the airlock had moved (heart jumped!). but it still wasn't bubbling. Opened it up to see about a 3" diameter round of light foam in the center. That's it. Stirred it again. I don't know what else to do. Four days now, over 5 days since the campden.

How long before I give up and try to recover my apple juice? It just seems like this should have taken off 24 hours after live yeast was introduced into aerated yeast-nutriented must/wort free from campden tablets for 4 days. . This is really depressing. Temp of must is 69 degrees. I didn't check SG today. I don't want to waste this juice. It's an mix of my honeycrisps and the 3 kinds my parents have, and it's awesome to drink... I think it would make a great hard cider too.... Is it already too late to just somehow convert it back to n/a juice? Or have the yeast nutrients and yeast already funked it up?

Sorry to be a downer... just frustrated. :-(

Also, I've been diligent with sanitizing everything.

It sounds fine. You can check the SG if you want, but if you are seeing c02 bubbles when you stir, that means it's fermenting.

 

[limetwist]

No airlock movement, SG same. After I stirred last night it went still/clear. This morning it looks like this. (If attachment works). (Kind of a thin mottled foam). Should I stir again?

Thanks so much for giving me feedback.

 

[limetwist]

Brought the primary upstairs yesterday to maybe gain a couple degrees. By late afternoon there were bubbles in the airlock! About every 90 seconds. Maybe the sloshing? By 9:00 pm it had stopped. I looked and it appeared about the same as the pic I posted. I gave it a good stir, and nothing this morning. Airlock isn't even raised.

How long can I keep trying before the juice is no longer recoverable? I don't know what to do. I've never had anything like this happen with beer or wine... And I feel much more invested with this five gallons of juice I helped press last week, than anything I've done before! I'm so frustrated .

I have no idea what to do.

 

[limetwist]

Could "the good stir" be slowing something down? There was nothing this morning, but about 1 this afternoon I notice the airlock up, and a bubble about every 2 minutes. I'm starting to think this stuff is messing with my head....

 

[slym2none]

That is probably trapped CO² coming free of solution and escaping.

 

[limetwist]

That is probably trapped CO² coming free of solution and escaping.

Is that a good thing or bad?

 

[slym2none]

Neither. It just happens, and the more you rouse it, the more comes out. Again, neither good nor bad.

 

[limetwist]

SG is still the same as OG.

 

[stella_tigre]

I often have little foam, but maybe some fizzing can be seen or heard. Shine a flashlight in and see, if there are fizzy bubbles you're in business.

 

[limetwist]

no fizzing :-( I took some out last night and added some sugar and a bit of nutrient. Nothing this morning. I think it's dead.

 

[limetwist]

I racked it and switched to Cote des blanc last night. It's not what I wanted, but better than have it go bad. It's fizzing like crazy this morning. Hope it doesn't go toooooo dry.

Guess I'll try ale yeast a different time.