RubberMaid says "NO"!

[cheezydemon3]

I ferment in plastic, which concerns me a little, but I'd mash in Aluminum before plastic.

Heat and plastic = bad stuff, even in the #2 and #5.

Fermentation may leach sh!t too, but I can't help that.(no glass debate please)

Guess I'm in that 14%.

 

[Hex]

SWMBO says no to hot food in plastic, and no to microwaved food in plastics. So I guess I'm going aluminum, copper, and stainless.

I will post all responses from RubberMaid etc. here when they come in.


Cheers.

 

[munche]

SWMBO says no to hot food in plastic, and no to microwaved food in plastics. So I guess I'm going aluminum, copper, and stainless.

I'll happily go all stainless once I win the lotto! :rockin:

 

[the_bird]

Dude, if I won the lotto, I'd upgrade the SWMBO first.



JUST KIDDING, DEAR! (if you happen to be reading this)

 

[shecky]

Sometimes it amazes me what people worry about, especially considering those same people likely get in a car every single day.

 

[bob1852]

SWMBO says no to hot food in plastic, and no to microwaved food in plastics. So I guess I'm going aluminum, copper, and stainless.

I will post all responses from RubberMaid etc. here when they come in.


Cheers.

You are not worried about copper and the amount of lead in said copper?

 

[SwampassJ]

you are not worried about copper and the amount of lead in said copper?

franks and beans!!!

 

[JonK331]

So I am a big proponent of the Zapap system and have argued my point that they are a great option on many threads. I've always wondered if the buckets are made from better "food grade" plastic than the coolers and it seems I am right. MB's website says that their food grade buckets are safe up to 180f: http://morebeer.com/search/102270/beerwinecoffee/coffeewinebeer/Food_Grade_Buckets

I guess my hunch was correct. ZAPAP!!!!!!!

 

[SwampassJ]

He's advising another person to steep in Nylon in another thread, pretty sure that's an instant death too from synthetic man made material. TROLL

 

[dwarven_stout]

Maybe we should mash in a Hot Tub.

I mash in my metal garbage can. It sucks having to schedule brews for weeknights after garbage day, but at least I don't have to worry about growing a tail.

 

[tv187u]

Just keep calling them until you get someone on record that says its fine. Then live in luxury after paying court fees.

 

[Hex]

He's advising another person to steep in Nylon in another thread, pretty sure that's an instant death too from synthetic man made material. TROLL

Not true, that was my first attempt at all grain and I'm designing my process with input from this board and from the books on homebrewing that I have read.

Nylon may in fact be as 'toxic' as hdpe, pp, and 'other' plastics at high heat.

I'm learning and researching as I go. That is what these forums are for isn't it? Open civil debate? However many of the responses from long time HBT board members, to my sincere questions, have been less than civil, so I say again, who's the troll?

And yes, Copper does worry me as well as all the rest, still learning, and leaning towards Stainless brew/direct heat mash + second brew kettle set up with a stainless false bottom to be used as a Lautering tun. An extra $100 dollar investment for a life time of homebrew peace of mind.

I'm definitely not buying a water cooler when it's not advised nor necessary.

 

[Strangebird]

I have to agree with you Hex. These boards have been awesome, but I did not get a very "welcome" response when I brought this topic up. I think some people take it as form of criticism for questioning the standard practices. But then again, the same thing happened when people started to abandon secondaries. The main thing is do what's most comfortable for you. I have bought parts for the valve and whatnot, but haven't 100% decided what I'm going to use.

 

[Strangebird]

So I just came across this on the Northern Brewer forums and the logic makes sense. The interiors of the Igloo coolers are made of polypropylene. The MSDS for that type of plastic indicated that it is stable to 480 degrees. I found the MSDS for HDPE and it's melting point is 276.8F. Definitely lower, but still considerably higher than what people would ever use in mashing. So perhaps this does indicate that the issue is more one of safety from burns rather than safety from leaching.

 

[SwampassJ]

That is what these forums are for isn't it? Open civil debate?

I'll take your word on that. (sarc)

 

[evanos]

Hex,

I think you're over-worrying on the answer you got from Rubbermaid. First, they make coolers, and testing to 120 F is overkill for the intended purpose. FDA extraction testing is not cheap, so why test at temps the product isn't intended to see? Second, if the plastic passed extraction testing at 120, why would it fail at 160? Third, if you think there are any water soluble extratables in the plastic, then soak your cooler in 170 degree water with a little dishwasher detergent (to help wet the plastic) a few times. That will extract anything near the surface. Each time you do this less will come out, and after say 3 times, you can go ahead and use as a mash tun with little fear of extracting anything else out. If there is anything extractable in water.

And by the way, how do you know the mass difference in the one styro cup your friend measured wasn't just experimental error? Do the same experiment with 10 cups and you get closer to a statistically and scientific correct answer, if the weight difference is larger than the uncertainty in the measurement.

I can't say that I would agree that passing at 120 means that 160 is the same. A lot can happen over a 40 degree gradient. at 411 degrees, paper browns. At 451, it burns. And yes, oxidations are different from leaching. But think about the difference between making coffee at 150 versus 190. Totally different concoction.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Not true, that was my first attempt at all grain and I'm designing my process with input from this board and from the books on homebrewing that I have read.

Nylon may in fact be as 'toxic' as hdpe, pp, and 'other' plastics at high heat.

I'm learning and researching as I go. That is what these forums are for isn't it? Open civil debate? However many of the responses from long time HBT board members, to my sincere questions, have been less than civil, so I say again, who's the troll?

And yes, Copper does worry me as well as all the rest, still learning, and leaning towards Stainless brew/direct heat mash + second brew kettle set up with a stainless false bottom to be used as a Lautering tun. An extra $100 dollar investment for a life time of homebrew peace of mind.

I'm definitely not buying a water cooler when it's not advised nor necessary.

Welcome to the club. My well meaning thread warning of lead exposure from garden hoses got a sh!t storm of "I use a garden hose and my beer tastes fine" as well as an assertion from a nasa scientist that "I drank from the hose, and I am a smart phuck".

I think we need a troll club.

I am a proud Troll. Since Troll evidently means "an above average inteligence homebrewer who has opinions"

 

[ChshreCat]

Well, I'm safe. I mash in a Coleman cooler instead of Rubbermaid.

 

[Captain_Bigelow]

I heard if you urinate in your cooler first to sanitize it, you will be just fine.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Welcome to the club. My well meaning thread warning of lead exposure from garden hoses got a sh!t storm of "I use a garden hose and my beer tastes fine" as well as an assertion from a nasa scientist that "I drank from the hose, and I am a smart phuck".

The elevated lead levels are likely from samples taken from hot sun baked hosewater that was stagnant and heated itn the hose....how much contamination from a free flowing hose typically used for brewing is my question?

Not trying to advocate using a garden hose, but is the data representative, I think not.

Ok, so a Rubbermaid customer service person said not to use a cooler beyond its intended purpose, what does that mean?

 

[dwarven_stout]

Welcome to the club. My well meaning thread warning of lead exposure from garden hoses got a sh!t storm of "I use a garden hose and my beer tastes fine" as well as an assertion from a nasa scientist that "I drank from the hose, and I am a smart phuck".

I think we need a troll club.

I am a proud Troll. Since Troll evidently means "an above average inteligence homebrewer who has opinions"

I don't use a hose when I brew, but it's not because I'm worried about lead. I just don't like chlorophenols in my beer.

 

[HItransplant]

hmm plenty of people have been for a long time. It's probably just a liability thing!

how long is a long time?

 

[northernlad]

The biggest problem is that too many people believe what they hear and hear what they want to believe.
Just because a manufacturer tells you they don't recommend putting 170 degree water in their COOLER, that doesn't mean it leaches, but thats what you want to hear. Have you seen what hot, not even boiling water, does to the plastic? If they let every ******* do what they want the company would be replacing these things left and right so they tell you not to do it.
The fact that some company's bucket says they they can go to 180 does not mean that it is a superior plastic than a COOLER, but thats what you want to hear.
For example: Cambro translucent pans are made out of Polypropylene and rated up to 160. Their clear pans are made from polycarbonate and are rated to 210. This has nothing to do with leaching because they are commercial and plastics that leach are, surprisingly, not food grade.
Some plastics are safe for the microwave, and cooking in aluminum does not give you Alzheimer's. Is that what you wanted to hear?

 

[orangehero]

Someone should ask for the actual testing data?

If a manufacturer doesn't recommend putting 170 degree water in a cooler, doesn't mean it doesn't leach. You say oh it's just liability, but that's what you want to hear also.

I thought about getting a cooler for a mash tun, but I checked it out in the store, took one whiff of the inside of the thing, and I will spend a little extra for stainless.

If the thing warps when you put hot water in it, I assume it's leaching something, since the plastic is getting softer.

 

[Revvy]

how long is a long time?

Over a decade as part of "official brewing culture" at least, probably longer in various brew clubs, it's hard to tell with stuff like this, since a lot of inovations in this brewing culture are passed now thorugh the internet, and become "canon" quite rapidly. But prior to this forum's inception for sure. If someone wanted to they could comb brewing books or even the older brewing forums to see when it first began to show up in the literature. But long enough that if anything were truly amiss it would have come up by now.

 

[northernlad]

If the thing warps when you put hot water in it, I assume it's leaching something, since the plastic is getting softer.

Thank you for proving my point. If the material is indeed HDPE like many feel it is, its isn't leaching because it doesn't leach.
I am not saying you have to use it, just like I would never tell a customer they should use aluminum if they don't want to, but it is important that people do not continue to pass on misinformation.

I said nothing about liability, I was talking about how a customer, if given 2-3 minutes, will find a way to mess something up out of ignorance or stupidity. Then they call an 800 number screaming about the cheap piece of crap they bought. So instead of bearing the cost due to mindless consumers, they put a list of Don'ts because they know the limits of their product. CYA, simple as that.

Proof:
I bought a bag of Pistachios. On the back of the bag there was an allergen warning: Contains Pistachios

We sell a propane burner at work that is obviously suitable for use as a turkey fryer. However, 99% of the country does not know that even a small measure of water added to oil of that temperature makes a bomb, so they put in nice bold letters NOT FOR USE AS A TURKEY FRYER. They have no moral liability, but a court has likely ruled against someone in the past so they are convering their ass.

I worked for the largest full service restaurant company on the world. In their new hire packet was a page I had to sign saying I would not travel in the front seat of another team members car if it did not have a passenger seat.

People are inherently stupid when it comes to things. Their hands must be held at every turn so who can blame a company for trying to be thorough. There is nothing to read into it and one should not be surprised when a product fails as a result from use not indicated by the manufacturer.

 

[orangehero]

Can you please post a quick link to the research on HDPE that says it doesn't leach? Other plastics would be nice too. I think that would be the most valuable contribution to this thread.

 

[northernlad]

I'll support my claims but you'll have to do your own work on the rest.

From http://www.medicinenet.com/plastic/index.htm

"Plastics are in most everything, from the jars, cups and containers that hold our foods and beverages to the construction materials that make up our houses. The number with the arrows on the bottom of a plastic bottle is the resin identification (recycling) number, which indicates the type of plastic the item was made from. Types of plastic include polyethylene terephthalate (#1: PET, PETE), high-density polyethylene (#2: HDPE), polyvinyl chloride (#3: PVC, vinyl), low-density polyethylene (#4: LDPE), polypropylene (#5: PP), polystyrene (#6: PS), and an "other" category (#7), which may contain more than one resin or a resin not mentioned above. Bisphenol A (BPA) is a chemical used to produce epoxy resins and polycarbonate plastics, which are marked with the number 7.""

From http://www.ewg.org/bisphenol-a-info

"When possible it is best to avoid #7 plastics, especially for children's food. Plastics with the recycling labels #1, #2 and #4 on the bottom are safer choices and do not contain BPA."

 

[Mermaid]

Heh.. fun little thread here...

I have done mini-mashes in a small beer cooler, and my latest batch I did a smaller batch using BIAB in my 5 ga. stainless kettle.

Am I afraid of the scary toxic plastic monster? kinda.

I still ferment using Better Bottles (way safer than risking cutting myself to ribbons on a dropped glass carboy).

I also use tanning beds/tanning booths (because I love the smell of burning flesh, don't give a rats ass about wrinkles, and it's a nice way to avoid going through Vit. D deficiency again)

What's great about this hobby is that there are so many options you can go with to achieve your end result (homebrewed beer!).

If one choooses to avoid plastic because of various (real or perceived) risk factors - use metal. You'll end up with beer either way - you might just have to spend a little more money to get there.

Rock on, homebrew nation. :rockin:

 

[bob1852]

I also use tanning beds/tanning booths (because I love the smell of burning flesh, don't give a rats ass about wrinkles, and it's a nice way to avoid going through Vit. D deficiency again)

I think the proper response here is "pics or it didn't happen"?