RIP 4th Amendment
- Thread starter z987k
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But for how long...
Seriously though - even small things create precident and trends toward the erosions of larger and larger liberties. First, eliminate the right to peacefully assemble, then wiretaps without warrants and illegal search, seizure and arrests based on how low you wear your pants. Tomorrow... who knows.
+1.....Its a slippery slope we're heading down. Pretty soon we'll all have chip implants so Big Brother can keep an eye on our every move. Will we be safer? Maybe. Will we have lost our freedoms? Most definitely.
Tenchiro
Well-Known Member
But for how long...
As long as we have the 2nd Amendment.
NWernBrewer
Well-Known Member
I don't care how many guns one has - they have more.
The 1st, 4th and 5th are very important. Without them even though you might have the right to have guns, they can search, seize and imprison you and take the guns.
noisy123
Well-Known Member
The gov't has been monitoring electronic communication within and outside our borders for years, and presumably catching bad guys with the information they get. But in order to tap a U.S. citizen's phone they had to show a FISA court (overseen by the judicial branch) that they have probable cause. In other words, they had to do exactly what every other cop in this country has to do to violate your privacy. It was even easier for the feds than your average cop. They could tap the phone and then get the warrant, all they have to do is show probable cause afterward. My understanding is that the "just cause" they had to show was incredibly lax -- I don't think there has been a single case where FISA denied the warrant. The telecoms ignored all of this legal stuff (the rights of U.S. citizens) and just gave the administration access to US citizens conversations.
Now, thanks to Bush, and Obama the gov't does not need probable cause to tap your phone. The gov't doesn't have to get the permission of the courts or even tell anyone they tapped a phone, and the telecom companies who aided and abetted the taps are given retroactive immunity from being sued because they clearly broke the law. The gov't just has to think you might be a terrorist (not that they have to prove it to anyone). I don't trust the gov't ability to spot a terrorist given they can't tell sky marshalls from hijackers:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/apr/29/air-marshals-names-tagged-on-no-fly-list/
This crap may make somebody out there feel safer, but not me.
yea the general idea of supporting freedoms like the ones supposedly protected by the bill of rights is that you dont support laws that curtail freedoms now, even if you dont feel it affects you. because when you set the precedent that this is acceptable, just becuase it works in your favor now, a year from now with someone else in power that same lack of checks and balances that you supported before can now be used against you.
I think the original Idea of the constitution was to create a legal document that protects against the stupidity and arrogance of future generations no matter who is in charge.
I think the original Idea of the constitution was to create a legal document that protects against the stupidity and arrogance of future generations no matter who is in charge.
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way to solve this is like other countries. have a national vote of confidence on the whole gov and then kick them all out. i seriously sometimes think this country is not going to last much longer. was going to vote for obama now i dont know. maybe i will just migrate to mexico
This is a quote from http://www.fredoneverything.net
'Mail arrives, telling me that by going to Mexico I have sold out, fled, abandoned the United States. I’m a coward, some of my correspondents say, and a traitor, just like Lord Haw Haw, Kim Philby, Jane Fonda. I’m probably a devotee of Quisling. (I'll have the grace to avoid saying that I have never Quizzled, Kippled, or Joppled.)
(OK, OK, I’m sorry.)
Anyway, they’re upset, which is irrational. They think that just because I went to Mexico, I left the US. They don’t understand. I didn’t leave the United States. It left me. It was a bait-and-switch operation. I signed on to one country, and they slipped another in under me. I want my money back.
In the country where I grew up, if you found a naked intruder in your daughter’s bedroom with a Bowie knife and a hard-on, you shot him and arranged to have the rugs cleaned. The sheriff wasn’t greatly interested and the country prosecutor didn’t see anything to prosecute. The scum floating on the gene pool wasn’t a protected species. It wasn’t the driving engine of the culture. It was just scum.
Today you would be charged with the use of excessive force. The cadaver’s family would sue. They would end up with your house unless they just ran you broke with legal bills. The outcome would depend on the racial make-up of you, the intruder, and the jury. Your daughter would be married with grandchildren before the courts reached any conclusion.
Think I’m exaggerating? When I used to have the police beat for the Washington Times in the Yankee capital, the cops told me, dead serious, that if I ever shot an intruder, I should shoot him again to make sure: You can’t afford to have two stories, they said, especially if he’s black which, in Washington, was a foregone conclusion. They’ll hang you, said the cops.
In the country I grew up in, you got on an airplane by walking up these funny little steps with wheels on them. Then you sat down. That’s all you did. I know, I know: You don’t believe this. It’s true. You just walked on. Further, the stewardesses were not merely civil but—so help me—friendly. Flying was actually enjoyable. The seats were big enough that you didn’t sit with your knees beside your ears and your feet in your pockets.
Now, getting aboard is like going into max security at some ghastly penitentiary. I once flew a bit around the old Soviet Union, as distinct from the new one, on a junket. Security was less oppressive, though the food was marginally worse unless you liked green chicken. The service was just as sullen.
Maybe that’s what I miss most about the Old Country. People were courteous. They could afford to be because everyone else was too. It’s hard to be pleasant when the odds are even that the next person you deal with will be an ill-mannered lout who knows he can get away with it.
I think people were courteous also because they lived in an agreeable country and were pretty happy with things. The new country seems angry—quietly so, not sure what to do about it, but looking for someone to hit.
Yet further still, in the old country they didn’t have these funny little Japanese cars with itsy-bitsy four-bangers. Nope. They had great virile monsters thirty feet long with eight huge cylinders like buckets. A dog could have slept in them. Sure, those rocket-barges were probably ridiculous and left a trail of parts that fell off because quality control wasn’t that great, but they were real cars. They embodied a spirit I liked. Today cars seem to be designed with transvestites in mind.
The Old Country the music was vibrant, vigorous, much of it springing from the great black bluesmen of Mississippi and then Chicago, some of it from the mountains and the jazz dens of the big cities. In the music of the new country, the whites whine and the blacks grunt angrily. From Tampa Red to rap is a long way down.
In the country I signed on to, things worked on the principle of individual responsibility. If you robbed a bank, which people generally didn’t, everyone figured you did it because you decided to, and you went to jail and everyone was satisfied, except you, which was the idea. Most people knew how to behave, and did. It saved a lot on police departments and you could walk around at night.
In the new country of course everything is somebody else’s fault, unless you are a white male, in which case everything is your fault. Never mind that if it weren’t for white males everybody else would be living on low-hanging fruit and saying “ugga-wugga” because they couldn’t figure out how to make a hemi-head big-block to crash into things with. Or figure out how to make anything else.
In the old country, the government was pretty much benign or actually useful. It built roads and largely left you alone. The public schools were not great but neither were they terrible. People ran their own lives. The federal government tended to be somewhere else, which was a splendid place for it, and you mostly didn’t notice.
In the country that is now where America used to be, the government is the cause of most major problems instead of a solution, however inefficient, to a fair number of them. The government keeps you from educating your children, holds standards down, prevents you from hiring the best people you can find to work in your business. It won’t allow local jurisdictions to control crime, prevents localities from enforcing such moral standards as they see fit, virtually illegalizes the religion, of most of the population, and generally won’t permit people to live as they like.
Now, I used to be fond of the United States. Granted, I wasn’t much of a patriot. The word nowadays seems to mean one who doesn’t so much love his country as to dislike other people’s. I figured live and let live. A lot of other countries struck me as fine places. But America was my favorite. It just suited me. I liked the people in their wild variety and the countryside and the music and the brash independence. It wasn’t perfect. Still, given the sorry baseline for comportment in human agglomerations, it was about as good as you could get.
I’m still fond of the United States. I just can’t find it.'
has happened before. guys name is great but was shot in a play by a guy named booth
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It's a calculated move to make him appear tough on terror, but I think he's calculating wrong. He's alienating the people who support him, in order to court the people who will NEVER support him. Same as he did with the "faith based initiatives." Bad moves IMO, both of them...of course I'm just a concerned citizen, not a scheming political spin doctor.
If Hillary were the nominee, I bet she'd be doing the same.
for me it comes down to this. even though i may have nothing to hide i want someone to ask if they can come in and search my home. and i want to see they have properly followed procedure. right now they can walk in the door and search and not tell you. or even tell you why. it has been long standing that any bell employee could get fired for letting others know what might be said on a phone conversation when the monitor to check to see if anyone is on for line testing. including up to murder. meaning there was a time when someone was fired for reporting a planning of a murder to the police. even though that is still in place for every day people who work in the offices its not for the ceo and others who took part of this. i dont feel safe when someone has a right to ask me for my papers at anytime for any reason. did you know they had a DHS notification sent to all LEO that said if they see someone with an almanac to get the vehicle information date and time and forward it to them because anyone with one can use the information to plan a terrorist act.
you can data mine anyone and find something on them that makes them look like terrorists given enough details. just data mining DIY homebrew propane fertilizer bio diesel can lead to being flagged. and trust me i have searched those things considering each one at one point in time has peaked my interest.
since this all started with bush pre 9-11 i put the entire blame on him his cronies and the current lot in congress except for the few who stood up.
noisy123
Well-Known Member
This is what should really have conservatives freaking out, not where Obama differs with Bush, but where they agree. Despite all Obama's rhetoric to the contrary, this vote shows that one of the areas where he and Bush line up is on the extreme extension of executive power taken on by Bush. While many conservatives might have been perfectly happy to have an unchecked executive with a conservative in office I doubt they'll be happy when the situation changes. I think conservatives have to look at this stuff and honestly ask themselves if they would be okay with these constitutional incursions if a Democrat were doing this.
as someone who works in the industry i would have to say yes tech is that good. even though they still only monitor maybe 5% its still enough to be threating as it is only getting better as far as tech is concerned.
Desert Monkey
Well-Known Member
It's not the tech that's good or not - tech is tech, and today's tech is incredible.
It's the people using the tech. My company uses it to insure you never pay off your credit card.
Fantastic tech, ****** people behind the wheel.
It's the people using the tech. My company uses it to insure you never pay off your credit card.
Fantastic tech, ****** people behind the wheel.
s3n8
Well-Known Member
Bob Barr/Ron Paul ticket anyone?
I USED to support Obama, but he showed his true colors today.
s3n8
Well-Known Member
Yes, they have WAY overstepped their bounds. I do not understand why more people are not outraged at how the checks and balances our country was founded on have been dispatched so easily. The correct option is make them obtain warrants. Keeps them from abusing it.
And yes, you do have something to fear about them listening to everything. Who the F do you think is doing the listening? Companies like Unisys/Northrop/Lockheed/Booz. Do you think they are cheap? Uh. No. There is a reason our deficit has doubled in the last 7.5 years. It costs a lot to ruin a country.
s3n8
Well-Known Member
Yet give the government enough rope and they end up six inches short. Crooks. Every one of them. Enough political discourse. I'm tapping out of this one.
"The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods."[H. L. Mencken]
Wow that is a great quote, and you know certain Bush power grabs that occurred in 2002 and 2003 so that they could have guantanimo bay and not have to deal with international treaties leaves the next president with an interesting power to disregard any treaty they want. Hypothetically the next president (if it is Obama) could just wake up one day and say "I don't like NAFTA (which he doesn't) we are not going to be part of that any more" and just like that NAFTA is out the window....
homebrewer_99
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Ron Paul for sure...:rockin:
POLITICS = POLY from the Greek meaning "many", TICKS = Blood sucking parasites...
Most of out politicians are lawyers, so...Do you know the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?
One's a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other's a fish...
Ize
...
Right on Ed. It would be nice about the 3rd party, but tossing the asshats out of congress would be a better start. Trust me, I'm stuck with RICHARD head Durbin.
Ize
So that must explain how you don't get a late fee for a Dell Preferred Card for over a year, and then when you get close to paying it off you start getting a late fee and past due notices when you've made the same payment, the same time, every month.
I think the AMERICAN macrobrewers are INFIDELS!!
