Repeated Oxidation

[chieftain]

I had this oxidation/darkening problem with most of my beers for a long time. Even ran some experiments to try to test what was going on, couldn't isolate the variable. I believe that hoppier beers are more susceptible, as the acids oxidize fairly easily. There are a few threads on HBT with people having the same complaint and none, so far as I know, have ended in a satisfactory answer.

What fixed it for me? Kegging. I know it's a broken record on here and that the $$ can be daunting for some, but if you can't fix this problem and are committed to brewing it may be your best option. Good luck!

Thanks, appreciate the feedback. Good to know I'm not alone. I'm going to tweak my bottling process once or twice more before calling it quits and moving to the keg. But it's nice to know that it offers salvation from this really annoying problem.

 

[chieftain]

Two possibilities:
1. Stirring in the bottling bucket is aerating the beer.
2. Underfilling the bottles - you mentioned that you recently started filling the bottles fuller. This should help - but even now are you filling liquid all the way to the top before pulling the bottling wand out?

Yep, I originally was racking my beer to the bottling bucket before adding the priming sugar, and then stirring it in. For the last 2-3 beers, I've switched that order up. Verdict is still out. I was always very careful not to stir it too vigorously though.

My previous method of bottling was to use one of those bottling wands attached to a hose that was attached to the bottling bucket. I would pull the wand out just before the beer reached the top of the bottle (I'm using bombers). For the last beer I bottled, the DS clone, I used a racking clamp and filled the beers higher, allowing it to overflow before withdrawing the tube. With my previous method, I determined I was leaving about 2 inches of headspace. With the racking clamp, I left it closer to .75 inches or so.

 

[ncbrewer]

With 2" headspace, you might have been filling a little low, but definitely not with 3/4". I really doubt it even 2" was enough air space to cause a problem.

 

[Yesfan]

Yes, I would assume fruit beers would be similar- except that adding fruit generally creates some fermentation and perhaps the oxidation risk would be minimized? I'm no expert on that, as I rarely make fruit beers, but I am a winemaker and adding fruit does usually kick off a secondary fermentation.

Darkening is usually one of the first signs of oxidation, actually. Long before flavor changes much, the beer will darken a bit and then start to stale a bit. A bit later on, it will take on "sherry" like flavors or brandy-like notes, or even a hint of metallic flavor in beers with darker roast malts, and when it's much worse is when you get the classic "cardboard" flavors that are most well known. The beer is very far gone by that point, so those "cardboard" flavors aren't as common.

Early oxidation is the most common flaw present in most of the beers I judge in competition, but many brewers who don't know the classic early signs don't know that. I think they are looking for "wet cardboard", and not early staling type of reactions and flavors.

Thank you for the reply Yooper.



I found a older picture of the IPA in question, so I thought I would post a then and now comparison of the beer. Check it.


Then. This was how the beer looked from the keg.

After bottling, the same beer a few weeks later (this past weekend to be exact).

The beer doesn't seem to have the same flavor and aroma as it did when pulling from the keg. I also have some others still bottled I'm going to look into. If those show some of the same signs, then I'll have to re-evaluate how I've been bottling my beer. Fingers crossed............

 

[blizz81]

Cripes! I know the lighting is different, but that's still quite a significant difference in color.

 

[rnm410]

That is a surprising contrast.

 

[Yesfan]

Cripes! I know the lighting is different, but that's still quite a significant difference in color.

The first pic was taken 12-04-15. The second was 4-2-16. This was an IPA I brewed around Thanksgiving. I kegged it and when it was close to being half gone, I bottled a 12 pack to put away to make room for the next keg once this one kicked.

The color never changed while pulling from the keg, but the bottles are a different story. Is there a possibility that some of the other bottles won't be oxidized, or will they all be the same? I use a counter pressure filler when bottling from the keg (the infamous Biermuncher beer gun mod).



If I come across a bottle that hasn't oxidized, I'll post another pic for comparison if you all want me to.

 

[Rcbandl]

Oxidation generally takes alot longer that a couple weeks to develop. I am going to make a guess that possibly its skunking thats occurring. Do you ferment with the carboy exposed to light?

 

[rnm410]

exploring-the-german-technique-of-krausening/

 

[Yesfan]

Oxidation generally takes alot longer that a couple weeks to develop. I am going to make a guess that possibly its skunking thats occurring. Do you ferment with the carboy exposed to light?

Is that directed to me?


If so, no. I have a temp controlled freezer I use. I fermented in the low 60s with this beer and kegged it around Thanksgiving. The time between the two pictures is about 4 months.

 

[chieftain]

Oxidation generally takes alot longer that a couple weeks to develop. I am going to make a guess that possibly its skunking thats occurring. Do you ferment with the carboy exposed to light?

That's negative for me as well. I ferment in a windowless spare bathroom that sits around 68-70. I haven't seen darkening as dramatic as the one posted above, but pretty noticeable nonetheless.

 

[chieftain]

Hey everyone,

I am reporting back some exciting news - it looks like my latest batch of beer has defied the dreaded oxidation bug. I brewed the Double Sunshine clone from BYO on March 13th. I cracked open one of my last bottles last night, and it looked and tasted essentially the same as the first one did back in late March! Here are some pics to prove it:

1st one is from March 31, three days after bottling (I'm pretty impatient)
2nd one is from April 15.
3rd one is from April 23 (roughly 3.5 weeks from bottling).

 

[chieftain]

I wish I could point with certainty to the fix that made this possible, but I can detail the changes I made with this batch over the previous ones that oxidized:

• Dry hopped after 9 days; bottled after 14 days total fermentation
• Used a racking tube and clamp instead of a bottling wand
• Filled the bottles to within a half inch from the top, rather than 1.5-2 inches as before
• Sacrificed a small goat to Beelzebub.

Here are the modified mash ingredients I used, for those interested:

Mash Ingredients

10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 62.7 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 6 12.5 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 7 6.3 %
12.8 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8 5.0 %
6.4 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 9 2.5 %

 

[Yesfan]

I wish I could point with certainty to the fix that made this possible, but I can detail the changes I made with this batch over the previous ones that oxidized:

• Dry hopped after 9 days; bottled after 14 days total fermentation
• Used a racking tube and clamp instead of a bottling wand
• Filled the bottles to within a half inch from the top, rather than 1.5-2 inches as before
• Sacrificed a small goat to Beelzebub.

Here are the modified mash ingredients I used, for those interested:

Mash Ingredients

10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 62.7 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 6 12.5 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 7 6.3 %
12.8 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8 5.0 %
6.4 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 9 2.5 %

Maybe there's hope for me after reading this. Awesome news to hear. Do you think the bottling wand may have harbored some bacteria? I plan on buying another siphon when I order new yeast.

 

[derekcw83]

I wish I could point with certainty to the fix that made this possible, but I can detail the changes I made with this batch over the previous ones that oxidized:

• Dry hopped after 9 days; bottled after 14 days total fermentation
• Used a racking tube and clamp instead of a bottling wand
• Filled the bottles to within a half inch from the top, rather than 1.5-2 inches as before
• Sacrificed a small goat to Beelzebub.

Here are the modified mash ingredients I used, for those interested:

Mash Ingredients

10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 62.7 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 6 12.5 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 7 6.3 %
12.8 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8 5.0 %
6.4 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 9 2.5 %

Thank you for reporting back. I too have the very same probelm you are having, see my multiple threads with various theories about my problem. Seeing that you have better results gives me some hope. Are you using anything to purge with? CO2?

And are you still having good hop aroma after a month?

Also, do you allow the caps to sit on the bottle for 15-20 minutes to push out O2? When you say racking tube do you mean autosiphon with tube filled with sanitizer? or just sanitized syphon tubing and clamp?

Any other techniques you do that you could recommend? besides the goat sacrifice

 

[chieftain]

Maybe there's hope for me after reading this. Awesome news to hear. Do you think the bottling wand may have harbored some bacteria? I plan on buying another siphon when I order new yeast.

I don't know what to make of the wand - I don't think it was a bacterial thing, since the beer would be good for the first couple of weeks and then turn south. It did sound like the beer was being sprayed into the bottom of the bottle each time I used it, though, so I thought perhaps it might be exposing it to air, even if briefly. Likely it was a different fix that made the difference. For my next DIPA, I might try bottling half with the wand, half with the tubing.

Thank you for reporting back. I too have the very same probelm you are having, see my multiple threads with various theories about my problem. Seeing that you have better results gives me some hope. Are you using anything to purge with? CO2?

And are you still having good hop aroma after a month?

Also, do you allow the caps to sit on the bottle for 15-20 minutes to push out O2? When you say racking tube do you mean autosiphon with tube filled with sanitizer? or just sanitized syphon tubing and clamp?

Any other techniques you do that you could recommend? besides the goat sacrifice

I'm not using any CO2. Hops aroma is definitely still robust - my recipe used a 5 minute addition of 3oz of Citra, 3.4 oz of Citra whirlpool, and 4oz of Citra for dry-hopping, so it damn well better.

I neglected to mention that yes, an earlier change I made to my bottling process was to place a cap immediately after filling the bottle, which I had not previously been doing. And I crimp the caps as soon as I've finished filling the bottles, which takes about 5 minutes. Before bottling I transfer the beer to a bottling bucket via auto-siphon, and then disconnect the tubing and run it from the bottling bucket spigot into the bottle, using a clamp.

Other things to keep in mind are not opening the fermenter unless absolutely necessary - for instance, I no longer take gravity samples until bottling day, since I figure 14 days is enough time to finish out.

The other thing to keep in mind is that I realized belatedly that essentially all of my oxidation problems were occurring with my previous extract-based brews. Shifting to all-grain may have been the biggest difference maker.

 

[ncboiler]

Hey everyone,

I am reporting back some exciting news - it looks like my latest batch of beer has defied the dreaded oxidation bug. I brewed the Double Sunshine clone from BYO on March 13th. I cracked open one of my last bottles last night, and it looked and tasted essentially the same as the first one did back in late March! Here are some pics to prove it:

1st one is from March 31, three days after bottling (I'm pretty impatient)
2nd one is from April 15.
3rd one is from April 23 (roughly 3.5 weeks from bottling).

Where do you get your labels?

 

[Yesfan]

.......The other thing to keep in mind is that I realized belatedly that essentially all of my oxidation problems were occurring with my previous extract-based brews. Shifting to all-grain may have been the biggest difference maker.

I can't say that. I can't remember the last time I've done an extract.



I've ordered new yeast and another autosiphon (with anti-bacterial tubing) as a precaution. I was going to do a comparison between the slurry and the fresh yeast on my next brew, and 'thought why the hell do I want to continue to make ****ty beer'? I ordered some 1056, 1272, and 1968. The slurries of those will get trashed.


Before, I would harvest the yeast from the primary fermentor in cleaned/sanitized mason jars, and use those on future brews. I never kept up with how old the slurry was so the last batch I used it on could have been the 2nd or 5th time for all I know.

This go around, I'm going to overbuild my starters and harvest from that. I'll date each use too so I'll get an idea of how long the yeast lasts in case one batch goes south again. I also plan on being more diligent on my cleaning/sanitizing of my bottles too.

 

[oljimmy]

• Used a racking tube and clamp instead of a bottling wand

I'd bet a lot of money that this is it. The only thing that ever fixed bottling for me was just racking the wort straight into the bottles. Maybe wands are more liable to fill up with bugs, or perhaps some flawed models subtly oxidize the wort as it's going into the bottle.

These days when I'm kegging I have half a gallon extra, so I just run the racking tube straight into the bottles, make a bit of a mess, pop a sugar pill in to each of them, cap, done. No oxidation at all.

 

[derekcw83]

I don't know what to make of the wand - I don't think it was a bacterial thing, since the beer would be good for the first couple of weeks and then turn south. It did sound like the beer was being sprayed into the bottom of the bottle each time I used it, though, so I thought perhaps it might be exposing it to air, even if briefly. Likely it was a different fix that made the difference. For my next DIPA, I might try bottling half with the wand, half with the tubing.



I'm not using any CO2. Hops aroma is definitely still robust - my recipe used a 5 minute addition of 3oz of Citra, 3.4 oz of Citra whirlpool, and 4oz of Citra for dry-hopping, so it damn well better.

I neglected to mention that yes, an earlier change I made to my bottling process was to place a cap immediately after filling the bottle, which I had not previously been doing. And I crimp the caps as soon as I've finished filling the bottles, which takes about 5 minutes. Before bottling I transfer the beer to a bottling bucket via auto-siphon, and then disconnect the tubing and run it from the bottling bucket spigot into the bottle, using a clamp.

Other things to keep in mind are not opening the fermenter unless absolutely necessary - for instance, I no longer take gravity samples until bottling day, since I figure 14 days is enough time to finish out.

The other thing to keep in mind is that I realized belatedly that essentially all of my oxidation problems were occurring with my previous extract-based brews. Shifting to all-grain may have been the biggest difference maker.

Thank you for your input, I'd like to keep getting updates from you as you brew ipa's to see if your issue returns or not, and I will do the same. This problem has eluded me for 2 years, but being the persistent motherf*cker I am, I am determined to figure it out without going to kegging as I know there are bottled conditioned ipa's that do exist with some homebrewers.

Over the last couple months I have addressed both water quality (ph) and going to all grain.

My process is very similar to yours. Only difference, I still use a bottling wand. I currently have 2 ipa batches that I bottled with different head space, half at 2", and half with a 1/2 " or less. I feel that this may be the difference maker here over the other changes. That and leaving them to sit for 10 minutes or so before capping. Before I would cap immediately. I use swing tops. My theory is this; during racking and bottling, as long as you are very gentle, there shouldn't be a lot of oxygen dissolving into solution at atmospheric pressure. But if you cap immediately with lots of head space (2" in my case) you are capping in lots of unwanted O2. It has nowhere to go but into solution, along with CO2, when the pressure builds as CO2 builds up in the air space in the bottle. By allowing time before capping with a loose seal of a cap sitting on the bottle, you allow O2 to be pushed out, leaving only CO2 remaining. I've only seen and heard this mentioned a few times from different instructionals. And even if O2 remains (decreased by some CO2 production), the decreased head space still reduces O2 concentration. In my case going from 2" immediately capped, to 1/2" or less capped after 10 min, reduces the O2 concentration by 75% or more, that could potentially be forced into solution over the weeks it takes to build up pressure.

This may explain the gradual but consistent change we experience only post bottling. Obviously only time will tell. But you are the first I've seen to report much improved results without switching to kegging. Everything I read points to hops getting oxidized, and with the limited chemisty research I've done, adjusting my filling technique may resolve my problem. My other beer styles may improve as well with less oxygen dissolving into the beer during carbonation/conditioning period.

 

[lilbova3]

I felt I was getting oxidized IPAs as well. Without the ability to purge with CO2 or keg I think it's inevitable to not pick up some O2. However, my last two batches have come out well I feel. With no darkening or off flavor.

The thing I did differently was filling my auto-siphon with StarSan and then cover the tubing end with my thumb to keep the StarSan in there before placing it in the carboy. Then I'll take my thumb off the tubing and dispense the rest of the StarSan in a big bowl until beer starts to come out and all the StarSan is gone. Then cover again with my thumb and transfer to the bottling bucket I bet.

I had issues when pumping my auto-siphon and getting it started. I felt all the pumping I was doing was adding O2. The method above is kind of a 'closed' transferred but still is exposed to O2 once it gets to the bottling bucket.

I still bottle with a wand. So I make sure to mark the first few and last few bottles to drink first since there is a lot of bubbling going into these bottles. All other bottles still get some O2 I bet from the spring tipped wand but won't be so bad.

I have also started dry hopping before fermentation is over. I don't take a gravity reading but just watch the airlock and guess what day to dry hop. Usually day 4-6. And keep for about 5 days.

 

[derekcw83]

I don't know what to make of the wand - I don't think it was a bacterial thing, since the beer would be good for the first couple of weeks and then turn south. It did sound like the beer was being sprayed into the bottom of the bottle each time I used it, though, so I thought perhaps it might be exposing it to air, even if briefly. Likely it was a different fix that made the difference. For my next DIPA, I might try bottling half with the wand, half with the tubing.



I'm not using any CO2. Hops aroma is definitely still robust - my recipe used a 5 minute addition of 3oz of Citra, 3.4 oz of Citra whirlpool, and 4oz of Citra for dry-hopping, so it damn well better.

I neglected to mention that yes, an earlier change I made to my bottling process was to place a cap immediately after filling the bottle, which I had not previously been doing. And I crimp the caps as soon as I've finished filling the bottles, which takes about 5 minutes. Before bottling I transfer the beer to a bottling bucket via auto-siphon, and then disconnect the tubing and run it from the bottling bucket spigot into the bottle, using a clamp.

Other things to keep in mind are not opening the fermenter unless absolutely necessary - for instance, I no longer take gravity samples until bottling day, since I figure 14 days is enough time to finish out.

The other thing to keep in mind is that I realized belatedly that essentially all of my oxidation problems were occurring with my previous extract-based brews. Shifting to all-grain may have been the biggest difference maker.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

 

[chieftain]

Where do you get your labels?

Beerclings.com.

 

[chieftain]

I can't say that. I can't remember the last time I've done an extract.



I've ordered new yeast and another autosiphon (with anti-bacterial tubing) as a precaution. I was going to do a comparison between the slurry and the fresh yeast on my next brew, and 'thought why the hell do I want to continue to make ****ty beer'? I ordered some 1056, 1272, and 1968. The slurries of those will get trashed.


Before, I would harvest the yeast from the primary fermentor in cleaned/sanitized mason jars, and use those on future brews. I never kept up with how old the slurry was so the last batch I used it on could have been the 2nd or 5th time for all I know.

This go around, I'm going to overbuild my starters and harvest from that. I'll date each use too so I'll get an idea of how long the yeast lasts in case one batch goes south again. I also plan on being more diligent on my cleaning/sanitizing of my bottles too.

I'm working on my 4th generation of GigaYeast's Vermont Ale (Conan equivalent) without too many problems to show, in terms of attenuation. I generally use a combination of the Mr. Malty calculator and yeastcalculator.com to determine how much slurry to pitch. I usually keep the yeast a month or so in the fridge before rebuilding via starter and pitching.

I'd bet a lot of money that this is it. The only thing that ever fixed bottling for me was just racking the wort straight into the bottles. Maybe wands are more liable to fill up with bugs, or perhaps some flawed models subtly oxidize the wort as it's going into the bottle.

These days when I'm kegging I have half a gallon extra, so I just run the racking tube straight into the bottles, make a bit of a mess, pop a sugar pill in to each of them, cap, done. No oxidation at all.

Interesting. I always have some star-san in the bottom 2 inches of the auto-siphon I use to transfer from primary to bottling bucket, so I believe that ensures a bubble-free transfer.

Thank you for your input, I'd like to keep getting updates from you as you brew ipa's to see if your issue returns or not, and I will do the same. This problem has eluded me for 2 years, but being the persistent motherf*cker I am, I am determined to figure it out without going to kegging as I know there are bottled conditioned ipa's that do exist with some homebrewers.

Over the last couple months I have addressed both water quality (ph) and going to all grain.

My process is very similar to yours. Only difference, I still use a bottling wand. I currently have 2 ipa batches that I bottled with different head space, half at 2", and half with a 1/2 " or less. I feel that this may be the difference maker here over the other changes. That and leaving them to sit for 10 minutes or so before capping. Before I would cap immediately. I use swing tops. My theory is this; during racking and bottling, as long as you are very gentle, there shouldn't be a lot of oxygen dissolving into solution at atmospheric pressure. But if you cap immediately with lots of head space (2" in my case) you are capping in lots of unwanted O2. It has nowhere to go but into solution, along with CO2, when the pressure builds as CO2 builds up in the air space in the bottle. By allowing time before capping with a loose seal of a cap sitting on the bottle, you allow O2 to be pushed out, leaving only CO2 remaining. I've only seen and heard this mentioned a few times from different instructionals. And even if O2 remains (decreased by some CO2 production), the decreased head space still reduces O2 concentration. In my case going from 2" immediately capped, to 1/2" or less capped after 10 min, reduces the O2 concentration by 75% or more, that could potentially be forced into solution over the weeks it takes to build up pressure.

This may explain the gradual but consistent change we experience only post bottling. Obviously only time will tell. But you are the first I've seen to report much improved results without switching to kegging. Everything I read points to hops getting oxidized, and with the limited chemisty research I've done, adjusting my filling technique may resolve my problem. My other beer styles may improve as well with less oxygen dissolving into the beer during carbonation/conditioning period.

Happy to swap tips as we continue to progress in our beer adventures. I can't imagine dealing with this for 2 years, you are one committed dude. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the headspace issue, but I guess my initial thought was the less headspace the easier it was for the CO2 produced by the yeast in the bottle to overcome...maybe that's incorrect.

 

[oljimmy]

Interesting. I always have some star-san in the bottom 2 inches of the auto-siphon I use to transfer from primary to bottling bucket, so I believe that ensures a bubble-free transfer.

What I mean is that the liquid, as it is flowing through the wand, might get agitated and oxidized by something at the bottom of the wand. Could just be a tiny design flaw or crack in one out of 100 wands, who knows. Anyway, glad to see there's progress, this problem just about drove me out of homebrewing...

 

[chieftain]

Hey everyone, wanted to share this update - I cracked the last of my Double Sunshine clone on May 13th, almost 7 weeks after bottling. The hops flavor and nose were a little muted, not surprisingly, but it was eminently drinkable. It has darkened up a smidge, but all in all I would rate this a success.

I've got a different DIPA in bottles now, and will confirm if this pattern holds true.

 

[derekcw83]

Hey everyone, wanted to share this update - I cracked the last of my Double Sunshine clone on May 13th, almost 7 weeks after bottling. The hops flavor and nose were a little muted, not surprisingly, but it was eminently drinkable. It has darkened up a smidge, but all in all I would rate this a success.

I've got a different DIPA in bottles now, and will confirm if this pattern holds true.

Thanks for the update, I was cold crashing, have since stopped to eliminate oxygen, and been topping off bottles to within a half inch or less. I'll try to update with my results as well. Ipa's are my favorite to brew.

 

[Yesfan]

Hey everyone, wanted to share this update - I cracked the last of my Double Sunshine clone on May 13th, almost 7 weeks after bottling. The hops flavor and nose were a little muted, not surprisingly, but it was eminently drinkable. It has darkened up a smidge, but all in all I would rate this a success.

I've got a different DIPA in bottles now, and will confirm if this pattern holds true.

Thanks.Can you do one bottle a little longer just to see if everything is holding up? If you can't (or won't), I can't blame you. Heck, if my next batch turns out to be problem free, I'm sure it will be gone within a month.

Appreciate the update. Hope some of the rest of us has the same luck.

 

[chieftain]

Thanks.Can you do one bottle a little longer just to see if everything is holding up? If you can't (or won't), I can't blame you. Heck, if my next batch turns out to be problem free, I'm sure it will be gone within a month.

Appreciate the update. Hope some of the rest of us has the same luck.

Sorry, I believe that was the last one. Frankly, I've never kept a brew beyond 4 weeks, so this was well beyond my normal time frame.

I should note that this beer was stored warm, around 70 degrees. I'm going to store one of the bottles from my most recent DIPA brew in the fridge for a similar period of time to see what impact it has on the hoppiness factor.

 

[derekcw83]

Sorry, I believe that was the last one. Frankly, I've never kept a brew beyond 4 weeks, so this was well beyond my normal time frame.

I should note that this beer was stored warm, around 70 degrees. I'm going to store one of the bottles from my most recent DIPA brew in the fridge for a similar period of time to see what impact it has on the hoppiness factor.

Let me ask you about your hops? Fresh each batch? How do you store them? I have recently switched to completely fresh hops for my brewing with very promising results. I was using very old hops that were poorly stored in sandwich bags in my freezer and regularly opened for many small batches. Just curious is this may have been one other variable you may have changed. My hops were heavily oxidized and some smell cheesy in comparison to fresh hops.