American Pale Ale Red Chair NWPA clone

[ThomperYT]

H2o requirements all depends on your system so you might have to tweak it a little. I do 10 gal batches and here's the water measurements I used to make this.


Mash In/Strike Water:
8.75 gal (temps depend on the efficiency of your mash tun)
Mine is around 164f to get 151f

Sparge:
5.7 gal at 175 to 180f

Hopefully someone that's done a 5 gal run can post their water profile.

 

[bob1852]

How much initial water did you use in the wort? I want to know how much h20 I should expect to boil down...

H2o requirements all depends on your system so you might have to tweak it a little.

Yeah, it's gonna depend on your system.

I mash with 5 gallons, lose about 2.2 to absorption/MLT loss, so my first runnings are ~2.8 gallons. I sparge with ~4 gallons so my pre-boil volume is ~6.8. Boil-off to about 5.5 gallons, and wind up with ~5.2 gallons into the fermenter.

 

[hallucinaut]

Sweet, thanks. This is my first time using beersmith as well, I didn't quite understand everything that I needed to set in order to get exact calculation on how much water I should be using, but I have a better understanding now.

AZ, you recommend mashing higher than 155* which is what you said you mashed at, so I was thinking I should set my mash temp to 160* in beersmith... is that a good idea?

 

[bob1852]

Sweet, thanks. This is my first time using beersmith as well, I didn't quite understand everything that I needed to set in order to get exact calculation on how much water I should be using, but I have a better understanding now.

AZ, you recommend mashing higher than 155* which is what you said you mashed at, so I was thinking I should set my mash temp to 160* in beersmith... is that a good idea?

I mashed at 152*F, but would recommend ~155*F. 160*F is a bit too high. I try to never go above 158*F, but for this recipe, I think 155*F would be good.

 

[hallucinaut]

Sweet, I'm going to brew this up today, just returned from my local HBS and got my ingredients to do a scaled down, 3 gallon brew. My brew kettle is only 5 gallons so I guess I'm stuck doing 3 gallon brews until I get a bigger one.

This will be my first all grain, so I'm pretty excited.

 

[hallucinaut]

And also, one difference is that I am using s-04 yeast instead. We'll see how it goes..

 

[ayupbrewing]

How did you brew night go hallucinaut?

 

[hallucinaut]

It's still going ha!

I messed up... not quite sure where.. I was supposed to end up with 4.4 gallons before boil and boil down to 3 gallons, but I ended up with 5 gallons before boil and had to boil out 2 gallons to get down to 3 gallons...

So my boil ended up lasting about 120 mins. That will probably effect my end product unfortunately, I guess next time I'll use a little less water in my mash than beersmith says.

Anyway my wort is chilling in an ice bath at the moment, it will be another 20-30 mins is my guess.

 

[crjpilot]

I brewed this several weeks ago and just tapped the keg on it. I did make a few modifications, so I'll list those first:

10lbs 2 row
1lb Munich
1lb Pilsner
1lb Crystal 60L
0.5lb Carapils
0.5lb Carastan

Mash @ 152*F

1.5oz Centennial (9.1%AA) @ 60
1.5oz Centennial (9.1%AA) @ 15
2oz Cascade @ 0

OG 1.060
FG 1.012

WLP005 with a starter

In the grain bill, I used 12oz of Crystal 60L and 12oz of Carastan. I don't remember why I did that now, but I did.

For the hops, on my initial tasting of Red Chair, I thought I picked up more Centennial, so I split the 15 minute addition and flame-out addition 50/50 Cascade and Centennial.

I used Wyeast 1968 rather than WLP005.

So, here are my notes...

Color: As close to dead-on as I can pick out with my eye

Aroma: Initially it was a little more present, but a bit more subdued/different in the actual aroma because of my increased Centennial/decreased Cascade. So, I'll definitely go back to the original hops schedule on the next batch.

Flavor: Again, a little more subdued due to the Centennial/Cascade change. Definitely less pronounced than Red Chair. The malt flavor seemed very close, though I feel like Red Chair may have a little more initial sweetness. As I said above, I'll go back to the original hops schedule next time as the Centennial definitely changed the overall hop flavor. For the sweetness, I'll probably go back to the original amounts of Crystal 60L. Also, as the OP said, mashing a little higher might help too.

I fermented about 68F or so and I didn't detect much in the way of esters. I see Wyeast says 1968 will produce some additional fruitiness at 70-74F. I'm not sure if I want much of that, but I might let it run around 70-72F next time and see.

I'm still undecided on dry-hopping. I think the aroma level was where it should be and maybe just didn't seem as "bright" because of the increase in Centennial and decrease in Cascade.

 

[bob1852]

Great feedback, thanks!

 

[SvenF]

When do you add the 0min hops? At FO or do you do a cooled down hop stand? I wouldn't see you getting even close to the 60IBU range, what a red chair is supposed to have, if you added this amount of Cascade right at flameout. If you keep in mind the isomerisation of the alpha acids that would still be going on at those temperatures, you would probably end up at around 100IBU or something.
I thought about maybe a cooled down hop stand, at around 160–170°F for 60 to 80 minutes with the Cascade. Or maybe even half the amount in the hop stand and half of it as dry hopping. The 3oz Centennial should almost bring it up to the 60IBU on their own.
What do you guys think?

EDIT: Oh and also, what kind of a dry yeast would you suggest?

 

[ThomperYT]

I've made this brew 4 times now, and actually just racked to kegs last night.
I add the 0min hops at FO and just let them sit while my immersion chiller is doing its thing. So they're probably in there for 30 min at least. Then I remove my hop bag before racking to carboys.
I enjoy the extra "hoppiness" and it's not all that strong using this method. Maybe a little more IBUs than what it's "supposed to" have, but that's what HB is all about, tailor the system and product to your liking.

 

[crjpilot]

I'm brewing Round 3 of this tonight. The only change is 40L instead of 60L. Something wasn't quite there on the sweetness last time, so I'm going to see what impact this has. Results to come...

 

[SvenF]

Just brewed this up yesterday and ended up short on my final batch size. I'm about 3/4 of a gallon short because this didn't fit into my boiling kettle anymore. I just figured I would add water after the boil since the gravity should be higher. But it came out at 1.063. So pretty much where it should be. Only problem is, I didn't recalculate the hops and I'm now probably looking more towards 75 or 80 IBU or so, instead of the intended 60. I thought about bringing it at least down to 1.060 with water and then just see how it'll turn out. What do u say?

 

[crjpilot]

Just brewed this up yesterday and ended up short on my final batch size. I'm about 3/4 of a gallon short because this didn't fit into my boiling kettle anymore. I just figured I would add water after the boil since the gravity should be higher. But it came out at 1.063. So pretty much where it should be. Only problem is, I didn't recalculate the hops and I'm now probably looking more towards 75 or 80 IBU or so, instead of the intended 60. I thought about bringing it at least down to 1.060 with water and then just see how it'll turn out. What do u say?

If it were me, I wouldn't mess with it. I'd just see how it comes out and give it another shot if you're not happy with it. I think adding even more variables just complicates things and this way you'll know why you're where you are. Unless I can actually calculate my error and correction, I don't like to change things after the boil too much.

 

[SvenF]

I did add some water, but it really wasn't much. About 10 ounces. I didn't want to fall below the 1.060. It's fermenting nice now and will be what it is. I'll let you guys know. Thanks for the answer though!

 

[Broham1]

Brewing this up today. It's my second try. First batch lost all hop flavor and aroma, but was still a delicious amber. Hoping the hops come through this time.

 

[crjpilot]

I've read Deschutes' website several times about Red Chair NWPA while looking over the recipes online and I just came across what might be a small "missing link." The few batches I've made seemed to be close, but lack some complexity in the sweetness. As I was re-reading, I came across this:

"Seven select European and domestic malts round out the edges for a complex, copper-colored brew."

However, all the recipes online, including this one, use 6 malts. Deschutes themselves state that Red Chair uses "Pale, Crystal, Munich, Carapils, Pilsner, Carastan," which is only six. So, I'm guessing the missing seventh is another crystal malt. My first guess is C40 in addition to C60. Another possibility is Light Carastan 13-17L. So, I'm going to do another batch this week using a blend of C60 & C40. I haven't decided the amounts yet. I'll get some Light Carastan 13-17L on Monday and work up a batch with that as well.

Any other input on that idea?

 

[bob1852]

I've read Deschutes' website several times about Red Chair NWPA while looking over the recipes online and I just came across what might be a small "missing link." The few batches I've made seemed to be close, but lack some complexity in the sweetness. As I was re-reading, I came across this:

"Seven select European and domestic malts round out the edges for a complex, copper-colored brew."

However, all the recipes online, including this one, use 6 malts. Deschutes themselves state that Red Chair uses "Pale, Crystal, Munich, Carapils, Pilsner, Carastan," which is only six. So, I'm guessing the missing seventh is another crystal malt. My first guess is C40 in addition to C60. Another possibility is Light Carastan 13-17L. So, I'm going to do another batch this week using a blend of C60 & C40. I haven't decided the amounts yet. I'll get some Light Carastan 13-17L on Monday and work up a batch with that as well.

Any other input on that idea?

I like it!

I'd consider 0.5lb of 90L and 0.5lb of 40L. That should get you about the same color as the 1lb of 60L, but with a little more sweetness/body.

 

[crjpilot]

I like it!

I'd consider 0.5lb of 90L and 0.5lb of 40L. That should get you about the same color as the 1lb of 60L, but with a little more sweetness/body.

I haven't used 90L before, but I picked some up yesterday. I might throw a couple of mixed percentages into some hot water and give it a taste to get an idea of what would be right.

 

[crjpilot]

Also, considering we know they use Carastan and British yeast, is it possible they're using British Crystal rather than US crystal? I have British light and medium crystal on hand, so I might see if those would be appropriate here as well.

 

[crjpilot]

OK, I'm brewing this again now. I've made a couple more changes based on my own tasting as well as notes here. First, I note that many people guess that Deschutes uses Great Western Pale Ale Malt instead of regular 2-row, which gives it some additional depth and richness. I agree that it could contribute, but I don't have it available here at my LHBS, so I got some Gambrinus ESB Pale Malt instead. It's also a little darker and richer than regular 2-row, but not as nutty/toasty as Maris Otter. I'm going with the 50/50 split of C40 and C90 as well. Finally, I'm splitting the late Centennial addition into a 15 minute and 5 minute because I feel like there's a substantial Centennial flavor and the OP stated his didn't have quite as much hop flavor as the original.

I'll keep everyone posted!

 

[iamperplexed]

OK, I'm brewing this again now. I've made a couple more changes based on my own tasting as well as notes here. First, I note that many people guess that Deschutes uses Great Western Pale Ale Malt instead of regular 2-row, which gives it some additional depth and richness. I agree that it could contribute, but I don't have it available here at my LHBS, so I got some Gambrinus ESB Pale Malt instead. It's also a little darker and richer than regular 2-row, but not as nutty/toasty as Maris Otter. I'm going with the 50/50 split of C40 and C90 as well. Finally, I'm splitting the late Centennial addition into a 15 minute and 5 minute because I feel like there's a substantial Centennial flavor and the OP stated his didn't have quite as much hop flavor as the original.

I'll keep everyone posted!

Yep, keep us posted. I've got my 4th attempt in the bucket now but eagerly awaiting my next attempt at splitting up the crystal. I feel like my 3 attempts have been close but not quite sweet enough and not enough citrus taste / aroma.

 

[te-wa]

crjpilot, did you get a FG sample tasting yet?
no rush over here, just wanted to see if you've nailed it.. guess i'll have to wait until it carbs, huh..

do tell!

 

[crjpilot]

crjpilot, did you get a FG sample tasting yet?
no rush over here, just wanted to see if you've nailed it.. guess i'll have to wait until it carbs, huh..

do tell!

Good timing. Actually, it is kegged and carbed now, so I did just do a taste test. Fortunately, with this year's batch of Red Chair just hitting the shelves, I was able to compare it to a fresh one. I have my girlfriend test along with me because I think her palate is slightly different, so it's good to get some comparison. Here are my latest notes:

Appearance - I had a little chill haze, so it appears slightly darker, but it's pretty close still. Close enough that I wouldn't tweak anything.

Aroma - Again, very close. I sense just slightly more Cascade in the actual Red Chair, but it's very slight. My girlfriend swears they're identical. The amount of aroma seems equal.

Taste - This is always the tough one. Overall taste is quite similar. I would say mine has a slightly higher perceived bitterness, but I think this might be accounted for more in water profile than actual recipe design. The bitterness seems to linger more in the finish more so than actually be more bitter. Hop flavor seems to be the same. Sweetness seems to be the same. I think the combination of Crystal malts helped round out the malt profile.

Mouthfeel - Here's where I noticed the most difference. The fresh Red Chair just seemed softer, smoother, and more well-blended where I still felt mine was a little bit heavier and kind of muddled. I felt like mine just sort of landed on my tongue with more of an impact where the Red Chair seemed to wash over with a better layering of flavors and feeling.

So, my first inclination is to up the Pilsner Malt a fair amount and drop the 2-Row down to try to get a softer mouthfeel. Second, I might tweak the water a bit to bring down the perceived bitterness. Third, I might still consider some tweaks to the C40/C90/Carastan combination to up the C40 more and drop the C90 just a bit. This might make the flavor profile a little "cleaner" in that there's slightly more sweetness and not so much of the darker flavors.

All in all, it's really close and very drinkable, but I'm still going to keep working at it!

 

[bob1852]

Tried my latest attempt (using US-04) against the commercial stuff.

Though I haven't tried yet, I think I'd be hard pressed to separare the two in a triangle test and lick the Red Chair.

In my opinion, the slight differences have to be water related. I keep tinkering with water profile, and I'm not getting the mouthfeel difference that crj is getting. Of course there is so much variation with homebrew scale relating to ingredients, water, fermentation, and equipment, so I'm not sure what else I'll try. I'm officially happy with it!

 

[bob1852]

Oh, and check serving temp. Out of my kegerator it is nearly 10*f then from a bottle out of the fridge. That temp difference makes a huge difference in aroma and mouthfeel.

Thanks for the continued feedback crj.

 

[crjpilot]

Oh, and check serving temp. Out of my kegerator it is nearly 10*f then from a bottle out of the fridge. That temp difference makes a huge difference in aroma and mouthfeel.

Thanks for the continued feedback crj.

I agree that temp makes a big difference. I adjusted my kegerator temp after the first taste test and it now pours with a more pronounced and "accurate" aroma. The flavor has improved as well, so I'd say it's VERY close.

 

[LAHammer]

Came across this a couple months ago and brewed a partial mash/extract version. I haven't had the Red Chair but this one came out really nice. Very pleased with the malt profile and the hops combo. I was a little quick with it trying to get ready for Thanksgiving so fermented for 12 days and kegged. Took about 2 weeks for it to clear (still tasted fine) but the keg didn't last very long after that. Getting ready to put this together again. Thanks for the recipe.

 

[SilverZero]

Tried my latest attempt (using US-04) against the commercial stuff.

Though I haven't tried yet, I think I'd be hard pressed to separare the two in a triangle test and lick the Red Chair.

In my opinion, the slight differences have to be water related. I keep tinkering with water profile, and I'm not getting the mouthfeel difference that crj is getting. Of course there is so much variation with homebrew scale relating to ingredients, water, fermentation, and equipment, so I'm not sure what else I'll try. I'm officially happy with it!

So do you have any thoughts re GW Pale Malt vs. GW 2-Row? I made a Mirror Pond last month with the Pale (3 SRM) and it was pretty nice. Or is the higher mash doing it for you with the regular 2-row?