Alamo_Beer
Well-Known Member
A block of ice would work well but there is an ice machine thingy right around the corner from our house that has 24lb of bulk ice for $1.25....just bring a cooler
Recirculating Ice Water Chiller
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I think the opposite actually.
You want the ice to make the water as cold as possible and by the end of the process (if you are completely efficient) you want to have no ice left, but still have cold water.
In a drink, what gets colder faster.... a glass with one cube or several small ones.
Block ice is best if you are cooling the air over a long period of time. Hence block ice was used for ice boxes and kept dry.
You want the ice to make the water as cold as possible and by the end of the process (if you are completely efficient) you want to have no ice left, but still have cold water.
In a drink, what gets colder faster.... a glass with one cube or several small ones.
Block ice is best if you are cooling the air over a long period of time. Hence block ice was used for ice boxes and kept dry.
Germey
Well-Known Member
Temperature transfer is Temperature transfer. If you are recirculating the water and the big block of ice is still in there, melting slowly, then the water that is recirculating is just not going to be as cold. Ideally, you want the water cooled down to around 32° by the ice, and then lotsa little cubes floating around to quickly cool the returning hot effluent before it can raise the temp in the bucket. The only way you can really go wrong is if you let the ice sit around in the water for hours and the temp starts rising again before you run the chiller.
Desert_Sky
Since 1998
good point......
Beerthoven
Well-Known Member
In NC in the summer tap water gets to 80º+. I run tap water through my IC until the wort drops to 100º, then use a 380GPH fountain pump to recirculate ice water through it. I use 8 or 10 lbs of ice, max, to get to pitching temp (65º
. This process takes about 15 or 20 minutes. For example, on my last brew, I had 12# of ice in my bucket, switched to recirc ice water at 90º, and still had lots of ice cubes in the bucket when I was done.
Point is, you can use tap water, even warm tap water, to take a lot of the heat out, then switch to ice water to finish it off. You don't need as much ice this way.
Of course, if I could get 24# of bulk ice for $1.25 like Alamo_Beer, then I'd do that, but I can't.
. This process takes about 15 or 20 minutes. For example, on my last brew, I had 12# of ice in my bucket, switched to recirc ice water at 90º, and still had lots of ice cubes in the bucket when I was done. Point is, you can use tap water, even warm tap water, to take a lot of the heat out, then switch to ice water to finish it off. You don't need as much ice this way.
Of course, if I could get 24# of bulk ice for $1.25 like Alamo_Beer, then I'd do that, but I can't.
If your dealing with the same volume of ice, then cubed would be more efficient than block because it is surface area that is doing the heat transfer and block ice only has the exterior surface area where cubes would have many times more surface area.(to much math for me to explain) Hence the cubes would melt faster and promote more cooling, but you might run out of cube before it was cooled enough. the heat transfer would also be going into the container, the atmosphere, the ground your tub was sitting on, etc. I should get a chance to test this in about a month. As germy suggested cube and block will probably be the most efficient. ground water temps in my area run 85-90 degrees.
I don't know what benefit there is to RECIRCULATING the ice water. To be more clear, putting the chiller's water back into the icewater basin is a waste of ice because it's well over 100F. It would be better routing the output to a wash bucket and replenish the spent water from the hose.
It may be a waste of ice but not water. We have 4 1/2 months of rain and 7 1/2 of NO rain here in south Florida and I can get my wort from boiling to 55 or lower(I pitch everything cold due to the heat) in less than 30 minutes with a 15lb bag of ice(if I don't steep my hops)
I used my immersion chiller and brought it down with well water to about 80 then switched to ice water with a pump I already had.
To be honest, I think my IC might just not be enough tubing to do it, or else the temp difference between my well water (55F or so I would guess) and the ice water is not enough to matter.
I used leftover ice from the ice maker in my garage fridge (not hooked up to water, just left over from when I bought the wife a new one and I got the old one), and some re-usable blue plastic cooler things, and the water in the cooler was very very cold, the ice didn't melt all the way, and I didn't get it cooling faster than my normal well water, at least that I noticed. The water savings might be worth it if I chill bottled water to 34F in my cold conditioning freezer and tossed the bottles in.
I got a CFC my brother made for me. One I set up the new stand and pumps maybe I'll try running ice water through that cfc, so there will be a higher water-to-wort ratio in the chiller.
To be honest, I think my IC might just not be enough tubing to do it, or else the temp difference between my well water (55F or so I would guess) and the ice water is not enough to matter.
I used leftover ice from the ice maker in my garage fridge (not hooked up to water, just left over from when I bought the wife a new one and I got the old one), and some re-usable blue plastic cooler things, and the water in the cooler was very very cold, the ice didn't melt all the way, and I didn't get it cooling faster than my normal well water, at least that I noticed. The water savings might be worth it if I chill bottled water to 34F in my cold conditioning freezer and tossed the bottles in.
I got a CFC my brother made for me. One I set up the new stand and pumps maybe I'll try running ice water through that cfc, so there will be a higher water-to-wort ratio in the chiller.
With 55F source water, there really is no need for icewater unless you really want to pitch a lager at 45F. The key to feeling better about using a lot of cooling water is to use it for something else afterwards instead of letting it run down the driveway and into the street. Water the hops, fill your washing machine, etc. IMHO, the impact of the energy use for creating ice (both environmentally and personal cost) is far worse than using an extra 10-20 gallons of water. That's like a typical shower.
Or hook it up to the sprinkler and let the kids play.
After the output cools, of course. Parboiled children are not happy children.
After the output cools, of course. Parboiled children are not happy children.
missing link
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of pitching 5 degrees under my desired ferment temperature. So for ales I try to pitch at about 63 degrees. My ground water is about 55-60 degrees. My last brew it just took way to long to get much movement under 70 degrees even with 60 ft of half inch copper. The closer you get to tap water temp, the slower the temps drop.
Would small frozen water bottles with the caps removed help them act more like an ice cube and less like cold water in a sealed bottle?
Would small frozen water bottles with the caps removed help them act more like an ice cube and less like cold water in a sealed bottle?
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sirsloop
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I must have a different source of water than Bobby_M cause my tap water is still coming out around 63°F in late June here!!! I was able to get my last batch down to 68 without too much elbow grease involved....
Nah, my tap is right at about 74F right now, so that would be 75F wort out of the the chiller but it's warming up each week.
SolomonsJim
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Very recently, I bought an immersion chiller for the first time (and got another one from a friend). I decided to hook the two together via some tubing, making the one chiller a pre-chiller in my kitchen sink. (An inexperienced type here...made beer 28 years ago as a kid, but am now on only my second batch as an adult). I filled the sink with ice, put the brew pot into the other sink (I have one of those divided 2-sink kitchen sink deals), hooked everything up, and let 'er rip.
As this was my first time chilling wort *ever*, I was really amazed. I got my 3.5 gallon boiled wort (need to buy a much larger pot so I can do full boils) down to 70 degrees in about 15 minutes. From what I read in this thread, this is probably a pretty optimal result that I should be happy with. Of course, I wouldn't be a guy, much less a homebrewing guy, if I were to just be satisfied with things and not try to tinker around some.
One thing I noticed was that after the first 3-4 minutes the water out line went from steaming hot to lukewarm. I guessed that the liquid immediately surrounding the immersed chiller had given up its heat, and that maybe I needed the slosh the brew pot a bit. So, I grabbed the ove-gloves, lifted up the pot and swished it a little. As expected, the water in the outflow tube got hot again. I ended up repeating this about ever 4 minutes or so.
Now, I saw this Jamil whirlpool method explained, but if I understood his methodology, he actually pumps some of the hot wort through two copper tubes in a roughly S-shaped arrangement, and then pumps the wort through this in order to start up a continuous spiral flow inside the pot. Is this essentially correct? (If not, please correct me.)
Anyhow, I am not too thrilled with the prospect of pumping my wort through another system (to me, this is just one more thing to wash and sanitize). So, I wanted to come up with an alternative way of accomplishing the same thing. I think it was the mention of rock salt that got me to thinking about the ice cream churns we used to turn when I was a kid. Then it struck me: why turn the wort at all? Why not turn the pot?
So, this is my idea--completely untested at present. What if I were to cut an inch square notch in my brew pot lid so that the IC pipes pass up without the lid being ajar, hook everything up to my prechiller, and then put the brew pot on top of an old, junked record turntable? I can rig something to hold the two IC uprights immobile (even if it's just me holding it). So what you would have is: the pot and the wort swirling around at 33.3, 45, or 78 RPMs (heh!), while the lid and the immersed chiller would be immobile.
Would this accomplish the same thing? Wouldn't the trub be pushed to the center by the centripetal force of the wort going outward?
What do you folks think about my low-tech idea? Is this workable? Or, is this a solution in search of a problem?
As this was my first time chilling wort *ever*, I was really amazed. I got my 3.5 gallon boiled wort (need to buy a much larger pot so I can do full boils) down to 70 degrees in about 15 minutes. From what I read in this thread, this is probably a pretty optimal result that I should be happy with. Of course, I wouldn't be a guy, much less a homebrewing guy, if I were to just be satisfied with things and not try to tinker around some.
One thing I noticed was that after the first 3-4 minutes the water out line went from steaming hot to lukewarm. I guessed that the liquid immediately surrounding the immersed chiller had given up its heat, and that maybe I needed the slosh the brew pot a bit. So, I grabbed the ove-gloves, lifted up the pot and swished it a little. As expected, the water in the outflow tube got hot again. I ended up repeating this about ever 4 minutes or so.
Now, I saw this Jamil whirlpool method explained, but if I understood his methodology, he actually pumps some of the hot wort through two copper tubes in a roughly S-shaped arrangement, and then pumps the wort through this in order to start up a continuous spiral flow inside the pot. Is this essentially correct? (If not, please correct me.)
Anyhow, I am not too thrilled with the prospect of pumping my wort through another system (to me, this is just one more thing to wash and sanitize). So, I wanted to come up with an alternative way of accomplishing the same thing. I think it was the mention of rock salt that got me to thinking about the ice cream churns we used to turn when I was a kid. Then it struck me: why turn the wort at all? Why not turn the pot?
So, this is my idea--completely untested at present. What if I were to cut an inch square notch in my brew pot lid so that the IC pipes pass up without the lid being ajar, hook everything up to my prechiller, and then put the brew pot on top of an old, junked record turntable? I can rig something to hold the two IC uprights immobile (even if it's just me holding it). So what you would have is: the pot and the wort swirling around at 33.3, 45, or 78 RPMs (heh!), while the lid and the immersed chiller would be immobile.
Would this accomplish the same thing? Wouldn't the trub be pushed to the center by the centripetal force of the wort going outward?
What do you folks think about my low-tech idea? Is this workable? Or, is this a solution in search of a problem?
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
Throw this into the mix. I was thinking about circulating a 50/50 anti-freeze mix thru the submerged coil in the brew pot that's connected to a 5 hp rated refrigerated air compressor dryer I have. Within its rated cfm's (air) down to 38 degrees F. Free junk in my garage so no money loss just time. Thinking outside the box.
Blender
Well-Known Member
Really, you are just better off running ice water through your existing immersion chiller once you have reduced the temperature as far as ground water will take you. Invest in a pond pump or a cheap sump pump.The prechillers do not work as well. Just stir the wort every so often and it works well.
It's wishful thinking to consider that a record turntable will turn a boil kettle full of wort. You're talking 40 pounds or so of liquid plus the weight of the kettle.
It's wishful thinking to consider that a record turntable will turn a boil kettle full of wort. You're talking 40 pounds or so of liquid plus the weight of the kettle.
SolomonsJim
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I guess I am a tinkerer at heart because I take the words "wishful thinking" as merely a new challenge to meet.
Still, I am gratified that I wasn't laughed at outright...I think I might still pursue this for sh*ts and giggles. The post about antifreeze was interesting! Actually, I am also surprised that nobody has explored freon yet. I expected someone somewhere has taken the coils off an old air conditioner, attached insulated tubes, and then connected the tubes to an immersion chiller.
As a post-comment, reality check, I didn't get into beermaking just to make gadgets. I am only making extract beers (so far) and find this simple process extremely satisfying. So, I know innately that this hobby/passion does not have to be inordinately complicated in order to produce great beer. Just by using a chiller for the first time ever has given me a more actively fermenting wort than I have ever had. It's just that I am drawn to hobbies which seem to be a nice blend of art & science, such as stained glass working, handmade breadmaking, and now beer brewing.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
This is what got me thinking;
A friend of mine has a 1889 house and under the front porch is a 5' by 24' deep brick lined well that holds between 61-63 degrees F year round. Inside the well is a large Chrysler (early 60's) radiator with the same inside the coal fireplace. There is a water recirculating pump at the well and a 3 speed fan behind the radiator in the fireplace. One great DIY AC for the summer plus still working 35 years later. I have a 6" diameter well same temps a few blocks away for my water chiller if needed vs wasting warmer city water.
In my junk collection pile are two 120 volt 150# by weight only not in BTU's window ac units. Also a 230 volt 245# by weight only not in BTU's? this unit will run me out of my 240 sq/ft garage being too cold when it's 100 outside. This with the garage door open by 3' with the unit under the door. Was thinking one of the ac units ducted blowing thru a small radiator pumped to the chiller coil Yes all units including the compressor air dryer run on R12 freon. Function before form and beauty but free should it fail when testing. Call me cheap.
To run your ac gas be it R12 or 134a directly from the ac thru your chiller coil would be a different challenge with any line movement causing a failure besides a one piece unit not alone what "EPA" regs or problems just having it recharged would be my guess.
Drinking fountain coolers don't work, too small of a compressor unit what I already found out. Job site free units so no money loss.
A friend of mine has a 1889 house and under the front porch is a 5' by 24' deep brick lined well that holds between 61-63 degrees F year round. Inside the well is a large Chrysler (early 60's) radiator with the same inside the coal fireplace. There is a water recirculating pump at the well and a 3 speed fan behind the radiator in the fireplace. One great DIY AC for the summer plus still working 35 years later. I have a 6" diameter well same temps a few blocks away for my water chiller if needed vs wasting warmer city water.
In my junk collection pile are two 120 volt 150# by weight only not in BTU's window ac units. Also a 230 volt 245# by weight only not in BTU's? this unit will run me out of my 240 sq/ft garage being too cold when it's 100 outside. This with the garage door open by 3' with the unit under the door. Was thinking one of the ac units ducted blowing thru a small radiator pumped to the chiller coil Yes all units including the compressor air dryer run on R12 freon. Function before form and beauty but free should it fail when testing. Call me cheap.
To run your ac gas be it R12 or 134a directly from the ac thru your chiller coil would be a different challenge with any line movement causing a failure besides a one piece unit not alone what "EPA" regs or problems just having it recharged would be my guess.
Drinking fountain coolers don't work, too small of a compressor unit what I already found out. Job site free units so no money loss.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
I guess I am a tinkerer at heart because I take the words "wishful thinking" as merely a new challenge to meet.
Just call it Mad Science that should cover it all in all of us, normal what's normal?
I have a Vortex Cooler (NEMA 12 model 721) 150 psi max inlet but it must use a large compressor to keep it fed it blows cold. With +70 degrees F compressor air inlet temp outlet temp is -30 degrees F.
At 100 psi 25 scfm 1,500 BTUH, model 780 list $400 again free.
Their big unit only requires 70 scfm 5,000 BTUH for only $1,270.
http://www.vortec.com/vortex_coolers.php
http://www.vortec.com/vortex_tubes.php
Good reading.
This would be way over the top ya think?
korndog
Well-Known Member
Just tested this baby out on a 10 gallon batch of Boh-pils the other day. With the whirlpool and ice water through the coil, the chill was lightning fast.
KD
KD
Lil' Sparky
Cowboys EAC
WOW Korndog, that's freakin' awesome looking!
korndog
Well-Known Member
Thanks Sparky. It worked out well. I used my March pumps but could see using something with more GPH for the coil. Still, it did the job very well. It also doubles as a HERMS coil.
$38.00 plus shipping from harbor freight. I had to get a couple fittings from Lowe's to adapt down to my IC hose.
Instead of recirculating hot water back in and melting my ice faster, I drained the hot water out one side of the sink and replenished the cold side with colder tap water.
I should have snapped the picture before all my ice melted. This was right at the end...wort temp down to 69 degrees.
Instead of recirculating hot water back in and melting my ice faster, I drained the hot water out one side of the sink and replenished the cold side with colder tap water.
I should have snapped the picture before all my ice melted. This was right at the end...wort temp down to 69 degrees.
Desert_Sky
Since 1998
Just tested this baby out on a 10 gallon batch of Boh-pils the other day. With the whirlpool and ice water through the coil, the chill was lightning fast.
KD
Ok I think Im going to go with your setup korndog. Being that i will now have to pump into the conical im going to need to be recircing boiling wort for a minute or so to sterilize the pump. This will accomplish not only that but it will whirlpool and move the hot wort around the IC better making it more efficient.
I will also be pumping ice water through the chiller with the other pump.
korndog
Well-Known Member
That's how I do it. I start the whirlpool at end of boil to sterilize and continue pumping (whirlpooling) through cooling. Let me know if I can help in any way.
Desert_Sky
Since 1998
Well for starters, where did you get that awesome IC? I like the twisting in it
korndog
Well-Known Member
I got it from B3 while I was a bit tipsy. They are pretty pricey! Look under convoluted heat exchanger.
Desert_Sky
Since 1998
oh trust me, ive banned myself from NB or B3 while drunk. I wake up with an inbox full of order confirmations
thanks
*edit
WOW Im going to have to get really drunk to order that one
I wonder if anyone else in internet land sells that stuff
Brewpastor
Beer, not rocket chemistry
I use a recirculation sump pump in a ice bath with great results. I keep about 6 milk jugs in the freezer for brew days. I smash them open when I am ready to use them.
korndog
Well-Known Member
I searched high and dry for convoluted tubing. I swear, the stuff is as scarce as hen's teeth. I bought this for a HERMS exchanger primarily, but use it for cooling instead.
We used recirculating ice water through our chiller last session, before I found this thread. Of course I'm not surprised someone here was already doing this, and had already posted about it.
We used a pump my buddy uses for his sump, after we reassured each other the water was ONLY going through the chiller. 2 bags of ice wasn't enough for 10g of wort, but I expect it to go even faster next time (with more ice).
We used a pump my buddy uses for his sump, after we reassured each other the water was ONLY going through the chiller. 2 bags of ice wasn't enough for 10g of wort, but I expect it to go even faster next time (with more ice).
Kauai_Kahuna
Well-Known Member
You could just pump tap water through until it gets down to around 100F, then switch to using recirculating iced water. Works for me, the hot water goes into the MLT for cleaning.
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I plan on getting a pump before my next batch. Gonna fill up a tub with tap water and pump that till I get down to about 100 or when it stops going down. Then I'll dump a few bag of ice in the tub. Anyone seeing any problems with this? Maybe recirculate the first 5-7 gallons into a bucket for cleaning. How fast are you guys running your pumps??gpm?
OP
OP
EdWort
Well-Known Member
30 lbs is working for me in these 100+ degree days with 80 degree tap water.
Lil' Sparky
Cowboys EAC
Are you planning on recirculating the coolant water back to the tub? This will quickly raise the temp of the coolant in the tub - I don't recommend it. Replace the spent water in the tub with fresh tap water instead. Just wanted to clarify.
korndog
Well-Known Member
+1
It takes me about 15-20 gallons of tap water to bring 10 gallons of wort to 100F (through 50' of 5/8" copper) when I switch to ice. I recycle that water as best I can for other use. You will melt a good bit of ice out of the gate using that water to prime your chill tank.
KD
Desert_Sky
Since 1998
Ok ive done this twice now, and have come to the conclusion that you need block ice and cubed ice. The block ice has the staying power, and the cube ice has the surface area to drop the water's temp fast. If I only use ice cubes, then they will melt too fast. Having a big block of ice is going to stick around much longer
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I was planning on recirculating the chilling water after i added the ice. The whole idea of this for me is to not have so much wasted water while chilling. I brew on the back patio and don't want do dump 75 gallons of water in the grass.
Got picked up a 330gpm submersible from LOWES. Can't wait to use it. But I' tihnk I'll be waiting quite a while. I'm really hoping to get the chance to brew the 90909 BW, but not sure.
Got picked up a 330gpm submersible from LOWES. Can't wait to use it. But I' tihnk I'll be waiting quite a while. I'm really hoping to get the chance to brew the 90909 BW, but not sure.
