Recipe help, Gordon Biersch Marzen

[VolDoc]

Hey all,

In the next few weeks I am going to attempt a Gordon Biersch Marzen clone (I know, I know but taste is subjective)!

However, I am fairly new to All-grain after making the switch from extract and I had some recipe questions. The pasted section below is from Dan Gordon's Marzen recipe found here:

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/dans-marzen/


Decoction mash with rests at 104°F (40°C), 126°F (52°C), 144°F (62°C), 155°F (68°C), 162°F (72°C). Step by pulling 25% of mash, boiling for 10 minutes, and remixing with main mash to hit step temperatures.
Mash out at 172°F (78°C). Boil 90 minutes. Ferment for seven days at 48°F (9°C), lower to 43°F (6°C) for four days, then reduce temperature by 2°F (1°C) a day until at 32°F (0°C).

Lager for six weeks.

So my questions are:

1. There is no mention of how much water is used for the mash. Should I assume 1.25 quarts per pound?

2. Also, I have never done a decoction mash. I have read John Palmer's book but I am still a little confused. Can someone please explain the above recipe procedure a little better?

3. How long do I let it sit for each step? How long do I let it mash at 172?

4. It states to boil for 90 minutes. Is this a normal boil time? Most recipes I have seen are a 60 minute boil. The reason I ask is because it says to add hops for 60 minutes in the boil. Do I boil for 30 then add the first hop addition and boil for 60?

5. Last question I promise! It says lager for 6 weeks. Does that include the approximately 14 days or so for fermentation while stepping down the temperature?

As always, this is the best place to find quick and insightful info from seasoned brewing vets. Thank you guys so much for the recipe help. Cheers!

 

[applecrew]

Some good questions! Decoctions can be challenging! And if you have never done one before, I don't think I would start with this one. That is a very complex mashing schedule!

Kai Troister has an excellent set of you tube videos on decoction mashing. I would study this (and do some more research on decoction mashing) and start with something easier.

With regard to water to grist ratio, I would not assume 1.25 qts per pound. Kai advocates a higher water to grist ratio, IIRC, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.75 qts per pound. The reasoning behind this appears to be to get most of the enzymes into the liquid portion so you don't pull them out with your decoction (which should be very thick with little liqiud) and destroy them when you boil the decoction.

How comfortable are you with step mashes and hitting (and holding) your temperatures? This is an important skill in managing decoction mashing.

The basic process outline is the following:

• Pull the decoction volume. This should be very thick with little liquid
• Place the decoction in a separate vessel for heating
• Apply heat, stirring the decoction to prevent scorching. Some will rest this volume at a sacchrification temp to convert the starch in the decoction.
• Boil the decoction - the length of the boil plays a role in flavor and color contributions. Hard to provide a recommendation, but I believe 15 to 20 minutes would be sufficient for a Marzen (someone correct me if I am wrong)
• Return the decoction to the main mash (slowly) to raise the temp of the main mash to the next rest temp. If you get there before all the decoction is returned, let the remainder of the decoction cool and then return it to the main mash

Unfortunately, the recipe does not provide enough detail regarding rest, but suffice it to say that the rests in the main mash are occurring while you manage the decoctions.

The 90 minute boil is because a large portion of the grain bill is Pilsner malt, which by boiling 90 minutes will help reduce the likelihood of introducing DMS. The hop additions should be added with 60 minutes REMAINING and 10 minutes REMAINING in the boil.

Lagering is the period after primary fermentation has completed.

I have provided a basic outline of the procedure, I hope you choose something a little easier for your first decoction brewday


Good luck!

 

[VolDoc]

Some good questions! Decoctions can be challenging! And if you have never done one before, I don't think I would start with this one. That is a very complex mashing schedule!

Kai Troister has an excellent set of you tube videos on decoction mashing. I would study this (and do some more research on decoction mashing) and start with something easier.

With regard to water to grist ratio, I would not assume 1.25 qts per pound. Kai advocates a higher water to grist ratio, IIRC, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.75 qts per pound. The reasoning behind this appears to be to get most of the enzymes into the liquid portion so you don't pull them out with your decoction (which should be very thick with little liqiud) and destroy them when you boil the decoction.

How comfortable are you with step mashes and hitting (and holding) your temperatures? This is an important skill in managing decoction mashing.

The basic process outline is the following:

• Pull the decoction volume. This should be very thick with little liquid
• Place the decoction in a separate vessel for heating
• Apply heat, stirring the decoction to prevent scorching. Some will rest this volume at a sacchrification temp to convert the starch in the decoction.
• Boil the decoction - the length of the boil plays a role in flavor and color contributions. Hard to provide a recommendation, but I believe 15 to 20 minutes would be sufficient for a Marzen (someone correct me if I am wrong)
• Return the decoction to the main mash (slowly) to raise the temp of the main mash to the next rest temp. If you get there before all the decoction is returned, let the remainder of the decoction cool and then return it to the main mash

Unfortunately, the recipe does not provide enough detail regarding rest, but suffice it to say that the rests in the main mash are occurring while you manage the decoctions.

The 90 minute boil is because a large portion of the grain bill is Pilsner malt, which by boiling 90 minutes will help reduce the likelihood of introducing DMS. The hop additions should be added with 60 minutes REMAINING and 10 minutes REMAINING in the boil.

Lagering is the period after primary fermentation has completed.

I have provided a basic outline of the procedure, I hope you choose something a little easier for your first decoction brewday


Good luck!

Thank you for the info! I will definitely be reading up for the next few weeks to prepare myself, and I will probably try a less complicated recipe before tackling this one. Just wanted to brew this at some point in the near future.

 

[VolDoc]

Some good questions! Decoctions can be challenging! And if you have never done one before, I don't think I would start with this one. That is a very complex mashing schedule!

Kai Troister has an excellent set of you tube videos on decoction mashing. I would study this (and do some more research on decoction mashing) and start with something easier.

With regard to water to grist ratio, I would not assume 1.25 qts per pound. Kai advocates a higher water to grist ratio, IIRC, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.75 qts per pound. The reasoning behind this appears to be to get most of the enzymes into the liquid portion so you don't pull them out with your decoction (which should be very thick with little liqiud) and destroy them when you boil the decoction.

How comfortable are you with step mashes and hitting (and holding) your temperatures? This is an important skill in managing decoction mashing.

The basic process outline is the following:

• Pull the decoction volume. This should be very thick with little liquid
• Place the decoction in a separate vessel for heating
• Apply heat, stirring the decoction to prevent scorching. Some will rest this volume at a sacchrification temp to convert the starch in the decoction.
• Boil the decoction - the length of the boil plays a role in flavor and color contributions. Hard to provide a recommendation, but I believe 15 to 20 minutes would be sufficient for a Marzen (someone correct me if I am wrong)
• Return the decoction to the main mash (slowly) to raise the temp of the main mash to the next rest temp. If you get there before all the decoction is returned, let the remainder of the decoction cool and then return it to the main mash

Unfortunately, the recipe does not provide enough detail regarding rest, but suffice it to say that the rests in the main mash are occurring while you manage the decoctions.

The 90 minute boil is because a large portion of the grain bill is Pilsner malt, which by boiling 90 minutes will help reduce the likelihood of introducing DMS. The hop additions should be added with 60 minutes REMAINING and 10 minutes REMAINING in the boil.

Lagering is the period after primary fermentation has completed.

I have provided a basic outline of the procedure, I hope you choose something a little easier for your first decoction brewday


Good luck!

I read on another forum that someone did this recipe, but said that he thought a single infusion would also come out well. Do you think I could just mash at 172 for an hour and get similar results?

 

[BeardedBrews]

I read on another forum that someone did this recipe, but said that he thought a single infusion would also come out well. Do you think I could just mash at 172 for an hour and get similar results?

I was going to tell you that if you do decide to do this as written, you should also do it as a single infusion.

151F for 60 minutes, Mash out at 170F if you want

Then I'd drink the two side by side and see if you can tell the difference.

 

[VolDoc]

I was going to tell you that if you do decide to do this as written, you should also do it as a single infusion.

151F for 60 minutes, Mash out at 170F if you want

Then I'd drink the two side by side and see if you can tell the difference.

Yeah I was thinking of doing it this way first, then trying my hand at the more complicated version. Thanks for the advice!

 

[GotPushrods]

Personally I'd add a pound of melanoidin malt, mash at ~152 for an hour, and boil for 2 hours (adding first hops at 60). Then see if I'm really missing something I just have to have in a side-by-side.

I'd say 90% of the brewers I know that have done decoctions now see it as a fun exercise in a historical process. Everyone should try it at least once for fun, but very few will have the palette to discern it from using melanoidin malt... once the recipe is dialed in. (That last part is key, of course!)

 

[VolDoc]

Personally I'd add a pound of melanoidin malt, mash at ~152 for an hour, and boil for 2 hours (adding first hops at 60). Then see if I'm really missing something I just have to have in a side-by-side.

I'd say 90% of the brewers I know that have done decoctions now see it as a fun exercise in a historical process. Everyone should try it at least once for fun, but very few will have the palette to discern it from using melanoidin malt... once the recipe is dialed in. (That last part is key, of course!)

Bump...

Not that I know that much, just inquiring, but is a pound too much for the grain bill ratios?

 

[GotPushrods]

Bump...

Not that I know that much, just inquiring, but is a pound too much for the grain bill ratios?

Not at all. (We're talking 5 gallons, right?) I've had to increase my usage to 9% to get my Märzen where I want it. It is VERY malty, but that's how I like it.

Nothing wrong with starting at 5% and see where to you want to go!