Recipe Critique, Lots of Late Hops

[lilbova3]

Hey all,

Would like to get any suggestions or confirm if this might work. Trying a lot, a lot of late hops to get a nice flavor/aroma and smooth bitterness IPA. I do small BIAB batches so I know it'll be weird to look at these numbers. I'm also experimenting on crazy/weird hop addition times. I live in SC and it's hard to cool wort quick in the summer even with a homemade wort chiller. So my hop additions time I assume will still isomerize for a good 15-20 minutes in addition to the time I add them to the kettle. So I am thinking it'll be more like this:

0 min addition - more like 15-20 min additions
addition at 200* - more like flameout addition
WP - Get wort to 160* and WP for 45 mins

Think I'm crazy yet?

OG: 1.062
FG: 1.01 (looking for beer to finish pretty dry to help accentuate hop flavor)
ABV: 6.8%
SRM: 5.3 (figured through Bru'n)
IBU's: Figuring 68ish (Tinseth)
Mash: 149*
Wort into fermenter: 3.15 gallons
Bottled: 2.5 gallons
Ca: 90
Mg: 11
Na: 23
Sulfate: 212
Chloride: 52
pH: 5.3 (figured through Bru'n)
2.1 ml 88% lactic acid
All salts and lactic acid added to mash water before grains
Ferment: 67*
Yeast: Washed US-05. 4th generation one month old sitting in fridge with about 105 ml worth of good yeast cake. Will probably add all yeast to fermenter.

7.58 lb 2-Row
.26 lb Carapils
.1 lb Caramel 40
.2 oz Chinook 30 min
.5 oz Citra 0 min
.5 oz Mosaic 0 min
.5 oz Amarillo 0 min
.5 oz Citra added around 200*
.5 oz Mosaic added around 200*
.5 oz Amarillo added around 200*
.25 oz Chinook WP
.25 oz Citra WP
.25 oz Amarillo WP
.5 oz Citra DH for 6 days
.5 oz Amarillo DH for 6 days
.25 oz Chinook DH for 6 days
.25 oz Citra DH for 3 days
.25 oz Amarillo DH for 3 days

What do you think? I know it's a butt load of hops for a small batch size. I love my IPAs with hop flavor. Sip of Sunshine, Julius, Green, Dinner, and Lunch all come to mind when I think of great aroma/flavor IPAs. Is this crazy.

Thanks.

 

[redshift76]

If it were me, I'd combine this

.5 oz Citra 0 min
.5 oz Mosaic 0 min
.5 oz Amarillo 0 min
.5 oz Citra added around 200*
.5 oz Mosaic added around 200*
.5 oz Amarillo added around 200*
.25 oz Chinook WP
.25 oz Citra WP
.25 oz Amarillo WP

into a 45 min hopstand at 180 degrees.

 

[lilbova3]

If it were me, I'd combine this

.5 oz Citra 0 min
.5 oz Mosaic 0 min
.5 oz Amarillo 0 min
.5 oz Citra added around 200*
.5 oz Mosaic added around 200*
.5 oz Amarillo added around 200*
.25 oz Chinook WP
.25 oz Citra WP
.25 oz Amarillo WP

into a 45 min hopstand at 180 degrees.

So pretty much keep the hop schedule I have and leave them all in the kettle until I reach 180* and hold for 45 mins at that temp?

 

[redshift76]

So pretty much keep the hop schedule I have and leave them all in the kettle until I reach 180* and hold for 45 mins at that temp?

Chill to 180, add that group of hops, hold for 45 min, continue to chill until pitch temp.

 

[redshift76]

For my IPA recipes, I make 3 hop additions: bittering, hop stand @ 180, dry hop. I get better hop flavor/aroma from that method + you don't have weigh out all those multiple additions. Longer brew day but less to remember & less chance of making a mistake. Give it a try.

 

[lilbova3]

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll give it a shot.

 

[ricshayne]

only thing I would suggest is hitting 1/2+ of your total IBUs from your bittering charge. in my experience I've found that the expected bitterness contribution from flameout and whirlpool hops isn't anywhere near where it actually is and it has left me with a few batches of overly sweet, under-bittered IPA. the flavor and aroma will be fantastic but the bitterness will not suffice.

 

[m00ps]

Honestly, I would double every one of those hops additions. You cant really overdue post flameout additions from my experience. I realize its a ~3 gal batch but I just kegged my last 5gal batch with 17oz and its not too bitter but has more hop aroma than I couldve dreamed. 16 of which were at some point after flameout. Think Im crazy yet?

You could also shift the additions towards which hops youd like to have more taste of vs aroma. Or just keep them equally proportioned if thats what you wanted

 

[lilbova3]

only thing I would suggest is hitting 1/2+ of your total IBUs from your bittering charge. in my experience I've found that the expected bitterness contribution from flameout and whirlpool hops isn't anywhere near where it actually is and it has left me with a few batches of overly sweet, under-bittered IPA. the flavor and aroma will be fantastic but the bitterness will not suffice.

I'm assuming my flameout additions will have around 10% utilization, is that what you've found or no?

17 ounces of hops is crazy! That's 3.4 oz/gallon. Mine is around 2.4 oz/gallon and I thought that was a lot.

 

[m00ps]

I dont really bother on utilization and IBU calculations, but I usually go with 1oz of a high alpha bittering hop (usually 12-15%) at 60 and then just do whatever I want at flameout. Usually an hour hopstand with a large addition at flameout and another about 30min in. There's definitely some bitterness that comes through but not anywhere near what youd expect from that much hops. Just a pungent juicy like hop flavor. Makes me scared to even think about opening the fermentor since I am now obsessed with trying not to expose it to oxygen

 

[ricshayne]

I'm assuming my flameout additions will have around 10% utilization, is that what you've found or no?

Honestly, i have mine set at 20% in Beersmith, but lately I just set them as flameout additions so the IBU contribution goes to zero, I work on getting all my IBUs from FWH and bursting in the last 10 minutes, and then just use whirlpool to add flavor and aroma without worrying too much about the bitterness contribution, Plus with 2.5 gallon batches, your wort is going to cool throughout the steeping process a lot faster than at a larger volume, so even at 10% utilization your software is going to be off.

 

[troglodytes]

I'll mirror what a couple others have said about overwhelming late additions. I just finished an IIPA that uses CTZ as the bittering charge at the tune of about 40% of total IBUs. I FWH and the rest of the bittering was a 10 minute addition and huge hops stand of Citra. The final product is like citrus juicy flavor. Like seriously juicy.

The next time I brew this recipe, I will absolutely not FWH, and increase the initial hop addition to about 60% of total IBUs to balance things out a little bit. Either that or split the hop stand between something juicy and something a little more resiny.

On the plus side if you're looking to brew a IIPA you feel comfortable drinking for breakfast, add 5 ounces (per 5 gallons) of Citra as a hops stand or whirlpool.

 

[lilbova3]

Just an update if y'all are interested.

Here's the hop schedule I went with, remember 2.5 gallon batch.
.5 oz Chinook FWH
.4 oz Citra 0 min
.4 oz Mosaic 0 min
.4 oz Amarillo 0 min
.9 oz Citra WP at 175 for 45 mins
.6 oz Mosaic WP at 175 for 45 mins
.85 oz Amarillo WP at 175 for 45 mins
.5 oz Chinook WP at 175 for 45 mins
1.2 oz Citra Dry Hop 4 days
.6 oz Amarillo Dry Hop 4 days

I know some funny values there, but upon bottling it tastes alright, maybe a little sweet. Smells a little sweet too. Which I'm surprised to get since the beer finished nice and low with an FG of 1.01 and my sulfate levels were around 200ish.

Anyone with Citra or Mosaic experience, do you get a sweetness from those hops when used heavily in late kettle flavor and aroma additions?

 

[lilbova3]

Made a brew yesterday with a bittering charge as a FWH and then added 8 ounces of hops into a WP for one hour with the temp starting at 170* and let it cool with no wort chiller for the hour. I'm trying this instead of dry hopping.

Looking forward to a hop bomb. Hope it turns out. Oh and by the way, it's only a 2.5 gallon batch size!

 

[m00ps]

you may have wanted to start the hopstand a bit above 200F if you wanted more flavor since you dont really have any other additions that will give you hop flavor

 

[lilbova3]

you may have wanted to start the hopstand a bit above 200F if you wanted more flavor since you dont really have any other additions that will give you hop flavor

You don't think there will be any flavor in that WP?

 

[redshift76]

You don't think there will be any flavor in that WP?

You are fine.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/

Another key point is that three of the four major hop oils have a boiling point below 212F/100C – so the act of merely boiling your hops for any length of time will start to boil off these flavor oils as well. So when designing a beer you may want to consider (in addition to your main bittering hop addition) adding your aroma/flavoring hops after the boil has ended. In fact if you want to preserve the Myrcene component it should be added after your wort has cooled below 147F/64C.

Couple other useful links:

https://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=516268

 

[lilbova3]

You are fine.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/

Another key point is that three of the four major hop oils have a boiling point below 212F/100C – so the act of merely boiling your hops for any length of time will start to boil off these flavor oils as well. So when designing a beer you may want to consider (in addition to your main bittering hop addition) adding your aroma/flavoring hops after the boil has ended. In fact if you want to preserve the Myrcene component it should be added after your wort has cooled below 147F/64C.

Couple other useful links:

https://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=516268

I figured I'd be ok. From all the research I've done and from people's experiences it sounded like that's what they have recommended for big flavor and aroma. Thanks for the additional links.

 

[lilbova3]

Bottled my 8 oz WP beer yesterday and it had great aroma AND flavor from the one hour WP. I didn't dry hop this one and was very pleased with the aroma still. Can't wait to see what it's like after carbing up.