Real Calculator

[jb1677]

Does anyone have a recommendation for a legitimate calculator or literature on how to calculate gravity by hand? I am using beersmith now but I 100% certain that many of its calculations are flat wrong. It appears that basically 1lb of any grain in a recipe adds ~.005 to the OG including adding only specialty grains that have no diastatic power not paired with base malts.

For example, creating a recipe with only 10lbs of 2-row, 72% efficiency gives me a 1.052 OG. A recipe with only 10lbs of Carafoam gives me 1.048 OG. Obviously one would never brew such a thing, but with no diastatic power and no base malts how would this be possible? This can be repeated for almost any specialty grain.

It makes me question the integrity of the numbers or tells me there is much work to do over and above what it spits out.

 

[Ravenshead]

Beersmith is accurate:
For plain old two-row it assumes a max yield of 1.036 or 36 points per pound per gallon (PPG). Assuming a 5 gallon batch that's 10 lbs X 36 PPG X 72% / 5 gal = 51.84 or rounding 1.052. Carafoam has 33 PPG max yield so you get a lower contribution. Diastatic power has nothing to do with the calculation other than how it impacts efficiency.

 

[Raenon]

Grain doesn't need diastatic power for gravity points- only for those points to be fermentable after the mash.

 

[chickypad]

Grain doesn't need diastatic power for gravity points- only for those points to be fermentable after the mash.

That's an interesting point.

But OP what you seem to be getting at is that you want it to ensure for you that you will get the fermentables you want based on your recipe. I have found Beersmith to be right on once I tweaked it for my system, but it does make some assumptions. If you have it set for all grain, it assumes that you will get conversion by using a base malt. It doesn't have the capability to wait until you enter all your ingredients, figure out if you have enough diastatic power, and then tell you if you are okay. Don't know of any program that would do that but there might be some out there.

 

[jb1677]

Grain doesn't need diastatic power for gravity points- only for those points to be fermentable after the mash.

My example is extreme, and I left out some details but expanding on it with more detail it (beersmith) shows that the points are fermentable.

Example:
10lbs 2 row - Est Start 1.052, Est Final 1.011, Est ABV 5.4%
vs
10lbs Cafafoam - Est Start 1.048, Est Final 1.010, Est ABV 4.9%

Again, obviously an extreme example. In real life I am looking at a partial mash that contains only speciialty grains and extract that when plugged into beersmith looks great but I am certain that lacking any base grain in the mash it will mean that the fermentables that beersmith suggests I will get do not in fact exist (would just be unfermentable protiensI guess?)

Brand new at this, and I am very anal/detail oriented - I guess I should just relax!

 

[phenry]

I don't use Beersmith, but I'm assuming it's just basing that FG on the standard yeast attenuation value. Which again, is something you really can't expect a software program to accurately predict. It doesn't care if it's fermentable or not, if there's gravity points, it'll take them down the %age value based off what yeast you've selected. That number can change for any number of reasons, be it pitching rate, fermentation temps, mash temps, etc.

 

[Pappers_]

OP, I use Beersmith and for at least the last 30 batches it's estimate of my original gravity has been spot on - never more than 0.002 points off of what I actually achieved. So, from a practical point, and verified by experimentation, Beersmith's OG calculations are quite accurate.

 

[chickypad]

In real life I am looking at a partial mash that contains only speciialty grains and extract that when plugged into beersmith looks great but I am certain that lacking any base grain in the mash it will mean that the fermentables that beersmith suggests I will get do not in fact exist (would just be unfermentable protiensI guess?)

If this is what you are doing (no base grain), that is extract with specialty grains not a partial mash. You should select extract in Beersmith. It will give you a few points for steeping the grains but the not same gravity points as if you do partial mash or all grain.

 

[Pappers_]

If this is what you are doing (no base grain), that is extract with specialty grains not a partial mash. You should select extract in Beersmith. It will give you a few points for steeping the grains but the not same gravity points as if you do partial mash or all grain.

User error is usually the most likely answer

 

[jb1677]

If this is what you are doing (no base grain), that is extract with specialty grains not a partial mash. You should select extract in Beersmith. It will give you a few points for steeping the grains but the not same gravity points as if you do partial mash or all grain.

User error is usually the most likely answer

I will accept user error, though I don’t agree. I selected partial mash because that is what I am doing. Some of the specialty grains I have included have enough diastatic power to convert themselves, so no base grain is needed to assist with conversion. Others do not yet beersmith calculates things as though they will still ferment. I get that I can simply add some base grain, and take down my extract amount to get the fermentables out of the other specialty grain that lack the diastatic power to convert themselves but my purchase of beersmith was to assist in matters such as these - to take the manual work that I don’t fully understand out of the equation.

Beersmith does not seem to acknowledge this. Call it user error if you want but that seems like a simplistic cop out answer. I am just trying to learn and understand why and understand what adjustments I have to make over and above what beersmith tells me.

Any recommendations for reading material that can educate me?

 

[pohldogg]

Beersmith assumes that the user understands the brewing process based on the type of brewing selected. If you select anything that includes mashing the program assumes that you know how to mash, including that you need DP. I don't think that's a cop out. If you build a recipe w/o enough DP, then you are making a bad assumption by telling the program that you're going to get 72% efficiency because you're not. Beersmith works off your inputs too. The rule of thumb is that you need a DP or something around 50 in order to convert, that's not a hard calculation to do. When you double click on the grain for details it will tell you the general DP for whatever you've added. I suppose that they could build in a won't convert warning light, but in the list of upgrades Brad's working on I gotta figure that one's pretty low on the list. Most will say start with how to brew, an old edition is online for free.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I will accept user error, though I don’t agree. I selected partial mash because that is what I am doing. Some of the specialty grains I have included have enough diastatic power to convert themselves, so no base grain is needed to assist with conversion. Others do not yet beersmith calculates things as though they will still ferment. I get that I can simply add some base grain, and take down my extract amount to get the fermentables out of the other specialty grain that lack the diastatic power to convert themselves but my purchase of beersmith was to assist in matters such as these - to take the manual work that I don’t fully understand out of the equation.

Beersmith does not seem to acknowledge this. Call it user error if you want but that seems like a simplistic cop out answer. I am just trying to learn and understand why and understand what adjustments I have to make over and above what beersmith tells me.

Any recommendations for reading material that can educate me?

People are just tryin' to help, no need to get snarky. It is user error, no base malt and only specialty grains is not a partial mash, it's extract with stepping grains, regardless if you use 1 pound or 10 pound of steeping grains.
Since you have beer smith set for an actual mash, it'll assume those grains (carafoam) will be converted. It doesn't just know that you're not adding base malt. Change your settings to extract (steeping grains don't mean a partial/mini mash), then try your 'experiment'.

 

[jb1677]

Fair point, I will also re-read relevant chapters of How to Brew - I do not recall it going into this much detail but ion my first cover to cover read I had no experience or knowledge whatsover so if it did go into detail I probably did nto retain it.

I guess all in all what I was hoping for was that beersmith would simply recognize what I was doing. Drawing a line in the sand that you are either mashing all grains (and it assumes you know to have enough base to cover them) -OR- you are merely steeping all grains in the bill seems shortsighted. I was assuming that it would recognize that a specialty grain with a diastatic power would convert on its own and one that did not have a high DP AND was not paired with base grains would be counted as being steeped not mashed.

To correct this recipe I have simply omitted the grains without enough DP to convert from the partial mash recipe allowing the ones with enough DP to convert to still be calculated but not accidentally calulating the ones that I only wished to be counted as steeping grains. In reality I am in over my head, this particular mistake I am trying to fix with my plan has me worried that there are many more that I have not noticed yet. I guess I should really just head back to the prepackaged kits (though many seem to suffer from similar issues, having the buyer steep grains that should be mashed and then counting them into the fermentables)

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I guess all in all what I was hoping for was that beersmith would simply recognize what I was doing. Drawing a line in the sand that you are either mashing all grains (and it assumes you know to have enough base to cover them) -OR- you are merely steeping all grains in the bill seems shortsighted. I was assuming that it would recognize that a specialty grain with a diastatic power would convert on its own and one that did not have a high DP AND was not paired with base grains would be counted as being steeped not mashed.
)

It does. You set it to your process and equipment properly and it will make all those calculations for you. It won't however think for itself and know you really mean extract with grains when you have it set for partial mash or all grain. It's merely software to help the brewer, it can't do anything for itself.

 

[jb1677]

It does. You set it to your process and equipment properly and it will make all those calculations for you. It won't however think for itself and know you really mean extract with grains when you have it set for partial mash or all grain. It's merely software to help the brewer, it can't do anything for itself.

I guess my intent was "partial mash with specialty grains"

This recipe has specialty grains with enough DP to convert themselves, no base needed to assist with conversion. It also has specialty grains that dont have enough or any DP, and are not paired with base, therefore only would provide steeping qualities.

In the end I just removed the "steeping only" grains from the recipe in beersmith, I think this gets me right (at least in this arena).

 

[chickypad]

It does. You set it to your process and equipment properly and it will make all those calculations for you. It won't however think for itself and know you really mean extract with grains when you have it set for partial mash or all grain. It's merely software to help the brewer, it can't do anything for itself.

Agreed.

OP, what you are trying to do is just not that common. Folks who go to the trouble of partial mashing rather than just steeping (i.e. paying attention to temp control, water to grain ratio, etc.) do it because they want to get all they can out of the grain. Going through all that and not including a base grain to get conversion for the grains that need it just seems like a waste to me.

But if that's really what you want to do, sounds like you found a work around. I wouldn't get discouraged and go back to kits only so soon, recipe formulation can be quite fun. Once you do some batches and tweak Beersmith to your system I think you will find you like it.

 

[Pappers_]

I will accept user error, though I don’t agree. I selected partial mash because that is what I am doing. Some of the specialty grains I have included have enough diastatic power to convert themselves, so no base grain is needed to assist with conversion. Others do not yet beersmith calculates things as though they will still ferment. I get that I can simply add some base grain, and take down my extract amount to get the fermentables out of the other specialty grain that lack the diastatic power to convert themselves but my purchase of beersmith was to assist in matters such as these - to take the manual work that I don’t fully understand out of the equation.

Beersmith does not seem to acknowledge this. Call it user error if you want but that seems like a simplistic cop out answer. I am just trying to learn and understand why and understand what adjustments I have to make over and above what beersmith tells me.

Any recommendations for reading material that can educate me?

Your definition of partial mash is not the standard that most use, in my experience. As the other member pointed out to you, extract with specialty grains is not defined as partial mashing usually.

Look, throw away Beersmith if you don't like it, I don't care. There's lots of reading you can do if you'd rather not rely on software to estimate OG.

Tone is sometimes difficult to read online, but you don't seem to be interested in hearing that Beersmith accurately predicts OG - dismissing the explanation above about your misuse of the software.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I guess my intent was "partial mash with specialty grains"

This recipe has specialty grains with enough DP to convert themselves, no base needed to assist with conversion. It also has specialty grains that dont have enough or any DP, and are not paired with base, therefore only would provide steeping qualities.

In the end I just removed the "steeping only" grains from the recipe in beersmith, I think this gets me right (at least in this arena).

Fair point, I will also re-read relevant chapters of How to Brew - I do not recall it going into this much detail but ion my first cover to cover read I had no experience or knowledge whatsover so if it did go into detail I probably did nto retain it.

I don't mean this to come off douchey, but maybe you should. Steeping grains alone won't convert in any significant fashion, regardless of how much you put in your grain bill. You need a base malt with enough diastatic power to convert the starches into fermentable sugar. There's no fermentable sugar in cara type malts, only dextrines (unfermentables) that will add flavor, color and body. BeerSmith is giving you faulty numbers because your assumption that given enough steeping grains you will get conversion is wrong. It's simple, no base malt and specialty grains is not a mash, mini or full, but if you have BeerSmith thinking your mashing, it's going to assume you're adding a base malt. If you're not using a base malt and only specialty grains, you will need to set BS to 'extract'. And you will need to use an extract to get your fermentable sugar. If you simply steep/mash carafoam without a base malt in the grist, you may get the OG you're looking for, but it won't ferment properly, if at all.

 

[jb1677]

Your definition of partial mash is not the standard that most use, in my experience. As the other member pointed out to you, extract with specialty grains is not defined as partial mashing usually.

Look, throw away Beersmith if you don't like it, I don't care. There's lots of reading you can do if you'd rather not rely on software to estimate OG.

Tone is sometimes difficult to read online, but you don't seem to be interested in hearing that Beersmith accurately predicts OG - dismissing the explanation above about your misuse of the software.

I am new at this, hence the posting of this in the beginners forum. I am positive that I understand (now) that I am in the wrong with my orig post, just still trying to understand the "why" part.

In my case I was hoping to do what I errantly called a "partial mash" with Munich Malt which is not a base but has enough diastatic power to convert itself. I dont know what else to call this process if its not a mash. My intent is to get fermentables out of it, not just steep it. This grain would be coupled with small amounts of specialty grains that have no DP for steeping purposes only (carafoam).

Entering this as partial mash suggested that the carafoam would produce fermentables.

Changing to Extract meant the fermentables from the Munich were no longer accounted for.

I have now fixed this by removing the carafoam from beersmith.

I still dont fully understand the "why" other than what I am doing is simply wrong.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I must've missed the part about Munich malt in the grist. Munich is a base malt.

 

[jb1677]

I must've missed the part about Munich malt in the grist. Munich is a base malt.

Ahhhh that explains some of my confusion, thanks! So it will act as a base (like a 2-row) and help the other grains convert (eg the Carafoan). if this is the case then I get it completely now. I errantly assumed that Munich would not assist in the conversion of the other grains.

thank you!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Yeah, I've never used Munich as the only base in a recipe, but I use a mix of 2 row and Munich along with caramel malt in a pale ale and everything works fine. I don't think you'd need to worry about carafoam converting, because it's purpose is to add some body and not be fermentable.

 

[chickypad]

It actually won't help much with the conversion of the other grains as it only has enough DP to convert itself. Again, Beersmith is sort of assuming you know if you have enough base malt with enough DP for your recipe.

I wonder if this would work for your situation: leave it set for partial mash, enter your specialty grain, but then go in and change the potential on those you don't expect to convert using this table. For example, change the potential of medium crystal from 1.034 to 1.018, which according to Palmer is what you would get for just steeping. Just a thought.

 

[ajf]

There are several different types of fermentables. To list the most common ones, there are:

• Base Grains
• Specialty Grains
• Extracts
• Adjuncts
• Sugars

Base Grains, such as 2 row, 6 row, Munich, Vienna all contain starches, and have diastatic power which can convert those starches to sugars. To convert the starches into sugars, these grains must be mashed, and the efficiency needs to be applied to calculate the amount of sugars extracted. They are identified in Beersmith by having diastatic power, and the "must mash" box being checked.


Specialty Grains contain little (if any) starches, and have been processed by the maltster to convert the starches contained in the grains before malting into sugars. These grains do not need to be mashed as the starches have already been converted into sugars, but . They just need to be steeped to dissolve the sugars and extract the color, but the efficiency needs to be applied to calculate the amount of sugars extracted. They are identified in Beersmith by the "must mash" box being unchecked, and a diastatic power of 0.


Extracts started off life as base and specialty grains that are mashed by the maltster to convert the starches into sugars. They do not need mashing as they contain no starches, and are 100% efficient as they are 100% soluble.


Adjuncts, such as flaked barley, corn, and oats, contain starches, but very little (if any) sugars. They must be mashed with something (usually base grains) that has sufficient diastatic power to convert the starches in the adjuncts into sugars, and the efficiency needs to be applied to calculate the amount of sugars extracted. They are identified in Beersmith as having no diastatic power, but the "must mash" check box is checked.


Sugars are effectively the same as extracts. They need no mashing, and are 100% efficient as they are 100% soluble.


As for Beersmith inaccuracies, I think the OG prediction should be pretty good providing your efficiency has been entered correctly, and providing you mash when necessary. I don't think the FG prediction could be accurate for all people as there are too many variables that affect this, and Beersmith is not aware of many of these variables. (I can't trust the White Labs and Wyeast attenuation figures which is what Beersmith uses as a basis for the FG calculation, because I always get attenuation considerably higher than White Labs or Wyeast predict.)


-a.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Munich malt is on the line between base and specialty grains and will self convert and will convert other specialty grains given enough time. When playing on this borderline you would be best served by knowing which company malted the grain and where they place it on the lintner scale. I think anything above 35 lintner will convert and Munich is around 40 or just a bit higher.

 

[ajf]

Munich malt is on the line between base and specialty grains and will self convert and will convert other specialty grains given enough time. When playing on this borderline you would be best served by knowing which company malted the grain and where they place it on the lintner scale. I think anything above 35 lintner will convert and Munich is around 40 or just a bit higher.

In this case, you need a mash for the Munich, but the Carafoam doesn't need any conversion as it is a specialty grain and the starches have already been converted.

-a.

 

[ajf]

It actually won't help much with the conversion of the other grains as it only has enough DP to convert itself. Again, Beersmith is sort of assuming you know if you have enough base malt with enough DP for your recipe.

I wonder if this would work for your situation: leave it set for partial mash, enter your specialty grain, but then go in and change the potential on those you don't expect to convert using this table. For example, change the potential of medium crystal from 1.034 to 1.018, which according to Palmer is what you would get for just steeping. Just a thought.

I wouldn't adjust the potential of individual malts. That would create a nightmare if you went to AG sometime in the future.

You could use different efficiencies however, which would only require a single change according to how you are brewing.

-a.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

In this case, you need a mash for the Munich, but the Carafoam doesn't need any conversion as it is a specialty grain and the starches have already been converted.

-a.

Yes, you have to mash Munich for conversion. You can steep it for flavor but will likely end up with a starch haze. I don't understand what you are saying about specialty grains. Specialty grains by definition have been kilned longer than a base grain to give a certain flavor but denature the natural enzymes as a byproduct, desired or not, but have not been converted. Dark crystals and roasted malts have very little if any fermentables available because the sugars have been caramelized. Light crystals and other light specialty malts will convert in the presence of a base malt.

 

[jb1677]

but they won't convert in the presence of Munich as the only base since it can only convert itself?

 

[chickypad]

I wouldn't adjust the potential of individual malts. That would create a nightmare if you went to AG sometime in the future.

Yes, if you were going to do this you would need to be careful to change it only from the recipe page. Changing the specs from there doesn't change them in your grain database in "ingredients". If you make the change in the ingredient list then it will show that new value for every subsequent recipe.