Ran into the anti-extract sentiment last night...

[robertus]

 

[JonM]

You didn't run into the anti-extract sentiment, you ran into a jerk. Forget that guy and carry on as usual.

 

[Calypso]

Afterwards, I thought about how it would have gone down if, when he asked if it was an extract beer, I had said no. But at the time, I didn't know he was a raging ass-clown and I honestly wanted feedback. And I have no way of knowing if he could tell it was extract, or if he wanted to know so he could dismiss it. I used Briess DME, which I think is pretty well-regarded extract.

 

[Monster Mash]

I've been brewing 20 years and not once have I criticized anyone's beer. I have pointed out defects and how to fix them but even if it was horrible I never say anything disparaging, I keep it positive and offer to help.

 

[kh54s10]

I brew both extract, steeping and mini mash, and all grain. BIAB and batch sparged 3 vessel. I honestly cannot tell the difference. I really doubt the ******** could either. I think he guessed.

I do prefer to brew all grain in my 3 vessel system. Extract is a hot, sticky PITA. and BIAB is a hot, heavy, sticky, messy PITA. But I will still do them when it fits my needs.

 

[dobe12]

Dude is definitely a ******... but that's the world. Lots of douches around. Nothing wrong with extract. I brew all grain now because I like the process and the control, but good beer can be made from extract. Don't sweat it.

 

[tmendick]

I have tasted the "extract flavor" in my beers as well as others, but my reaction wouldn't be what he did. I might ask questions to see how you handled the yeast and DME to see if there was a trick or tip I could offer to improve your process, eventhough I'm better at drinking homebrew than making it. You're always going to find a jerk. Even if your beer was better than every commercial example ever, people are still going to act elite.

PS I do All Grain and keg, I do AG because I feel more involved in the process than I do when I make extract. I keg because I'm way too lazy to bottle and I had a kegerator before I started homebrewing.

 

[dobe12]

PS I do All Grain and keg, I do AG because I feel more involved in the process than I do when I make extract. I keg because I'm way too lazy to bottle .

+1 to this ^^^^^

 

[BigJack]

I brew both ways- and I've snuck extract beer past the "extract ain't real beer" types before. The guy is a troll.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I was hanging out with some friends last night and brought along my IPA. It was very well received, and I was stoked. Then my friend Jack gave some to this other guy he knows that homebrews. He tried it and shrugged and said "is this extract?" I said yeah, and I'd welcome feedback. His response? "I'll give you feedback when you make a real beer."

Wow. Everyone else was shocked by his reaction. I mean, it's not like I opened a package labeled "beer", mixed it with water, and bottled it. I chose the amounts, specialty grains, hops and hop schedule, yeast, etc. Sheesh. I know it's not a contest, but I did feel better later when Jack told me it was better than any of the beers he has tried from the other guy.

What a jagoff. He's probably trying to put you down so he can feel better about his own crappy beers.

 

[rskelhorn]

I'm interested in tasting your beer now lol

 

[jabba11]

personally it wasnt his "is this an extract" comment so much as the "let me know when you brew a real beer" comment that makes him an ******.. I do all grain its just a more involved, slightly cheaper, and more optioned way of brewing. Good beer is good beer and bad beer is bad beer. I dont care if you do it in a pickle bucket or a $1800.00 thermo controlled fermenter..

 

[fuelish]

And just remember, as you go through life, you find out that some people are just Dicks.

Yeah, the world is full of Richards,,,and not meaning "given names," here...everyone's taste is different, dismiss his opinion if yer stuff tastes good to you and yours

 

[Cyclman]

Unless he grows barley, malts his barley, grows hops, and captures and propagates his own yeast, is he making "real beer"?

If he's doing all that, then yes, he's earned the right to mock us lesser mortals, he is a jedi.

More likely he's an ******.

 

[Staylow]

Yes, that guy is an ****** for sure.

6-8 hours seems ridiculous, even if you have tons of equipment to haul around.

My all grain brew day is an average of 6 hours, from hauling equipment from the basement to the front porch till clean up. I've been done as quickly as 5.5 hours, and as long as 7 or so when farting around too much during clean up.

Heat strike water - 15-30 minutes, depending on recipe
60-90 minute mash
5-10 minutes to vorlauf/drain tun
batch sparge 1 - stir, 10 minute hold + vorlauf and drain - 20 minutes
batch sparge 2 - repeat
15-20 minutes to reach boil
60 minute boil
(optional, per recipe) 20 minute hopstand
chill, 10-20 minutes, depending on ground water temp
20 minutes to settle
transfer, aerate, pitch yeast and into ferm chamber - about 15 minutes
clean up about 30 minutes or so

 

[AlCophile]

So, there was this 'Brew Expert', who claimed he could identify any brew, etc. "So, how bout some samples", said he?
He's going along, doing well, when he gets a gorgeous sample, ICE cold, head just right, so he takes a sip, and 'trills' it, like sucking air through to get the aromatics up to his nose, whence he coughs, sputters, curses: "This is urine, plain URINE!!!" And, this leeettlle voice from the back of the room says: "Yes, but whose?"

 

[drainbamage]

No more beer for that guy. What a turd.

I do extract & steeped grains, or occasionally partial mash. I've had a few people raise an eyebrow when I told them it wasn't AG, but never a blatant call-out like that. My standard response to "when are you going all-grain?" is "whenever I can't accomplish what I want with extract or partial mash." I know there certain specialty grain profiles where you have to do AG, but I haven't run into that limitation yet on anything I've wanted to make.

 

[jfk69]

Don't sweat it. The guy was a total *********. There's plenty of them in life, just ignore them. I started brewing with extracts, and I worked on the process. I learned about using good water, late additions, full boils, immersion chillers, and on and on. After a year or so of learning I was proud of my extract beers. Maybe some beer snob would say they sucked, but you know what...most people that drank them said they would buy them in the store. You really needed to taste HIS beer. I got a c-note that says it sucked balls. With that said, after going AG, I'm liking my beers more. But I also started using a ferm fridge and am starting to add 02. When I use liquid yeast I'm using starters and I tend to be close to an overpitch if I use dry yeast. It all adds up and makes beer better, but it doesn't necessarily make a better beer. That's up to the brewer.

 

[Colorowdy]

When I first started brewing I went into this home brew shop. I was just kind of poking around looking at things and the owner walked up and asked if she could help. I replied with "yeah. I just started brewing with Mr. Beer." Before I could finish her response was " Mr Beer isn't brewing."
People can be rude. I made some pretty good beer with there kits. Almost quit brewing. One friend still asks me to make a chili lime I made with their kit.
I made the jump to all grain not to long ago is my beer better I think so.
Really what made my beer better was full boils, proper pitching rates, an fermentation temperature control.
Oh and may his b@lls be infested with fleas of a thousand camels and beer be infected.

 

[brewprint]

Yes, that guy is an ****** for sure.



My all grain brew day is an average of 6 hours, from hauling equipment from the basement to the front porch till clean up. I've been done as quickly as 5.5 hours, and as long as 7 or so when farting around too much during clean up.

Heat strike water - 15-30 minutes, depending on recipe
60-90 minute mash
5-10 minutes to vorlauf/drain tun
batch sparge 1 - stir, 10 minute hold + vorlauf and drain - 20 minutes
batch sparge 2 - repeat
15-20 minutes to reach boil
60 minute boil
(optional, per recipe) 20 minute hopstand
chill, 10-20 minutes, depending on ground water temp
20 minutes to settle
transfer, aerate, pitch yeast and into ferm chamber - about 15 minutes
clean up about 30 minutes or so

A little too much time for me at this point

 

[kombat]

Yes, yes, we all agree the guy was a turd. We also all agree that good/great beer CAN be made with extract. However, without tasting the OP's beer, there's no way of knowing if THIS beer qualifies as a "great extract beer."

If the douch... I mean "gentleman" ... was merely asking out of the blue, then he's a pretentious ******. But if he picked up a flavour cue that suggested it was an extract brew, then perhaps there is some minor flaw in this beer, and this one might not be one of those much ballyhooed extract beers capable of winning NHC.

I think we've given the OP enough back-patting and "there there"'s to get him through. Is it OK if we now dig into his process a little bit and make sure he's making the best beer possible?

What was the recipe? How was the extract added to the boil (i.e., all at once at the beginning, all at once at the end, some early, some late, etc.)? What were the O.G. and F.G. measurements? What degree of attenuation did you achieve? Did it perhaps finish sweet? What steeping grains were used, if any? What was the fermentation temperature?

We've wasted enough keystrokes on the troll. Now let's help the OP improve, if indeed his beer contained a bit of "extract twang."

 

[hunter_le five]

If the douch... I mean "gentleman" ... was merely asking out of the blue, then he's a pretentious ******. But if he picked up a flavour cue that suggested it was an extract brew, then perhaps there is some minor flaw in this beer, and this one might not be one of those much ballyhooed extract beers capable of winning NHC.

He was clearly an ****** in either case:

"is this extract?" I said yeah, and I'd welcome feedback. His response? "I'll give you feedback when you make a real beer."

The issue isn't whether or not the OP's beer was any good. For all I know it was disgusting swill. The issue is the elitist attitude that "extract beer isn't real beer and is beneath me to even discuss".

Even if he immediately detected serious flavor flaws in the beer, he's still a f***ing jerk.

That said, I agree with you, there may be some process issues that need to be addressed that cued the "is this extract" question in the first place.

 

[kombat]

He was clearly an ****** in either case

Sorry, my point wasn't clear.

Asking, "Is this an extract beer" doesn't necessarily make him an ******. If he tried it, and picked up some sort of "extract twang," then it's a reasonable question. But if he was just trying to sound snobby, or hadn't even tasted the beer yet, then he had already primed the ****** pump, even before he made his latter comments and removed any doubt.

 

[BigJack]

A little too much time for me at this point

You can get a BIAB batch in around 3-4 hours, which is still more time than extract.

As much as I have enjoyed the mad-scientist aspects of the all-grain batches I've done, sometimes you just want to get a wort in the fermenter and move on with your day- and nothing beats extract for that.

 

[Calypso]

I think we've given the OP enough back-patting and "there there"'s to get him through. Is it OK if we now dig into his process a little bit and make sure he's making the best beer possible?

What was the recipe? How was the extract added to the boil (i.e., all at once at the beginning, all at once at the end, some early, some late, etc.)? What were the O.G. and F.G. measurements? What degree of attenuation did you achieve? Did it perhaps finish sweet? What steeping grains were used, if any? What was the fermentation temperature?

We've wasted enough keystrokes on the troll. Now let's help the OP improve, if indeed his beer contained a bit of "extract twang."

Nooo, my Cheerios!

I'm happy to share said beer with anyone in the Ann Arbor area. It is definitely not without flaws, but I think they actually ended up being pretty minor. The recipe and some of my comments are here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/critique-please-zealous-ipa-extract-all-nz-hops-475062/

Short version - color and clarity could be better, could use a bit more bitterness. I think my water is not helping me. The water in Ann Arbor is wacky - with a 61 ppm Sodium, 37 ppm Sulfate, and 95 ppm Chloride, it ends up being "Very Malty" according to Bru'n Water.

To answer your questions:

Recipe - above
Extract - this one was all added at the beginning of the boil. Learned on here to add more of it later to avoid darker beer, which I've done since then (and am moving to BIAB, so this shouldn't be an issue in the future).
Measured OG/FG - 1.066 -> 1.009
Attenuation (apparent) - 86%
Steeping grains - Rye Malt, Munich, Honey Malt
Fermentation temp - Kept it at an even 66 degrees (internal) for the first 5 days, then let it spend the rest of its time at 70 degrees (ambient).

 

[kombat]

Looks like a great beer, and thanks for being a good sport about this. My only concern would be this part:

Extract - this one was all added at the beginning of the boil. Learned on here to add more of it later to avoid darker beer

It not only darkens the beer, but it caramelizes wort sugars, rendering them unfermentable. Many folks believe this is the source of the ill-defined "extract twang" that plagues many extract brews to varying degrees. This is why it's recommended to only add half the extract at the start of the boil (to give the hop oils something to cling to and retain some degree of hop utilization), and the rest at the very end (to minimize caramelization and creation of unfermentable sugars from otherwise fermentable extract).

If this d-bag did indeed actually detect any note of "extract," and wasn't just being a pretentious snot, then it was likely due to the addition of all the extract at the start of the boil. Frankly, I'm shocked that you were able to get it to ferment down to 1.009. This strongly suggests minimal extract caramelization, and should preclude virtually any "extract twang," but you're in a much better position to make these kind of judgements than we are.

Everything else looks by-the-books.

 

[brewprint]

It not only darkens the beer, but it caramelizes wort sugars, rendering them unfermentable. Many folks believe this is the source of the ill-defined "extract twang" that plagues many extract brews to varying degrees. This is why it's recommended to only add half the extract at the start of the boil (to give the hop oils something to cling to and retain some degree of hop utilization), and the rest at the very end (to minimize caramelization and creation of unfermentable sugars from otherwise fermentable extract).

I keep posting on here because there is great information...not to hijack.

Anyway, I've never heard of just boiling half at the beginning and adding the rest at the end. Does this mean to stop the boil at the end and add it?

Perhaps this is why some stop at 1.020?

 

[kombat]

Anyway, I've never heard of just boiling half at the beginning and adding the rest at the end. Does this mean to stop the boil at the end and add it?

You can, or you can add it while it's still boiling and then kill the heat. The idea is simply that it's much easier to dissolve LME in hot/boiling liquid than in cooler liquid. Some folks also appreciate the sanitization element of boiling it for at least a few minutes at the end of the boil, but I tend to believe that this is unnecessary, as LME is already pasteurized. I don't think anyone's beer has ever been infected due to unboiled LME.

Perhaps this is why some stop at 1.020?

They stop at 1.020 for several reasons. Caramelization of wort sugars, rendering them unfermentable, can be a factor. As can using old or stale extract. Also, often the problem surfaces with new brewers (who are drawn to the relative simplicity and low initial startup cost of extract brewing), who may have made other newbie mistakes in their process, such as insufficient aeration or underpitching their yeast, leading to underattenuation. Most likely, the "1.020 Extract Barrier" is due to an amalgam of several of these factors, not just one thing (such as the presence of extract). I see no reason why a properly-brewed and fermented beer consistenting primarily of fresh extract shouldn't ferment just as low as an equivalent all-grain recipe.

 

[Rivenin]

i've had extract brews i've not enjoyed... i've had all grain brews i've not enjoyed...

If you make beer that is received and you enjoy, thats all that matters. He is what gives this hobby a bad name from the inside... It's like my old car clubs, we were full into cars and such, but there were always the jackasses street racing or screwing around during meets or during a cruise. screw those guys.

 

[pablosbrewing]

Short version - color and clarity could be better, could use a bit more bitterness. I think my water is not helping me. The water in Ann Arbor is wacky - with a 61 ppm Sodium, 37 ppm Sulfate, and 95 ppm Chloride, it ends up being "Very Malty" according to Bru'n Water.

Water ions are usually less important for extract, but the sulfate/chloride ratio does affect "perceived bitterness". You could dilute with distilled/RO to reduce the chloride, and then add gypsum to increase the sulfate.