Questions About Secondary and Conditioning

[Photomanliny]

OK I am new to here and home brewing. I have done (all extract) some small test batches (bottle conditioned) and a few 5 gallon batches (corny and forced carbonated). I will start off by saying I love doing this. But I do have some questions.

I understand that all true fermentation happens in primary, and secondary is a process both for some aging and for dropping yeast from suspension (clearing). This makes perfect sense to me if I rack to a corny and force carbonate the beer. However, I do get a bit confused if I am planning to bottle (or keg) condition the beer.

When the beer is transferred to the bottles (how the priming sugar/DME/Gyle gets into the bottle is not important here), are we not asking our yeast to "wake up" and go to work again? Will they not multiply again and thus wreck all that clearing that we allowed our beer to go through in secondary? Would it not make more sense to go straight to bottle and just age them longer? Has anyone tried this (as a comparison)? What I mean is to take half the batch to secondary, and half the batch to bottles. Then, after secondary, bottle the other half. Open both bottles at the same time and compare? Does anyone think that is worth trying?

Also...during conditioning is more alcohol created?

Thanks (in advance) for any replies/advice.

Happy Brewing!!

Primary: (traveling soon)
Secondary: English Traditional Ale (going to keg condition)
Conditioning: American Pale Ale, Blackberry Wheat, American Amber Ale
Keg: Rye Porter
Bottled: Green Tea Honey Ale, Blackberry Ale, Cream (Hybrid Ale)

 

[Patirck]

Here is my take on it - I am sure there are many others.

I am a big believer in cold crashing for at least 2 days and longer if you can do it. This clears the beer and from my own anecdotal experience seems to make the flavors smooth out so to speak. It is a lot like lagering but you can do it with ales. If you keg the beer when it is cold it will accept force carbonation a little faster - this can be a big help if you are in a hurry and use the shock and awe form of force carbonating.

I don't know if your experiment will mean much in the long run - different styles of beer have differing levels of benefit from longer fermentation/aging/conditioning/lagering.

As for the bottle conditioning - I don't think there is enough sugar to create a significant amount of alcohol. As for the clarity issue - this is why you give it plenty of time for the yeast to do their thing and then you chill the bottle in a standing position. Most beer won't have (much) yeast in suspension. If you see stuff when you pour out a bottle it is just as likely to be chill haze or "stuff" that you racked into the bottling bucket. If you want really clear beer - try the extended cold crash.

 

[cyclonite]

Yes, the yeast will multiply and eat up the priming sugar, but they will drop to the bottom of the bottle after they are done, leaving the beer nice and clear.

As to why to secondary and then bottle? I don't - I go straight to bottle (or keg) from the primary in 95% of my batches. The only time I don't is if I am racking on fruit AND I want to harvest the yeast from the primary. Or, if I need a primary and have a secondary open . For aging, I have pretty much gone to just keg or bottle aging instead of aging in a secondary.

Also agree 100% with Patirck. Cold crash if you can, it will help clear the beer, and I do think it helps to smooth out the flavors. I usually do this now in the keg, since it is the only thing I can chill ;-). I am also a believer in naturally carbonating, even in the keg. This gives it additional conditioning time, which helps smooth the beer out and possibly clear it. In any case, I've found my beer tastes better for it, it is easy, it is cheaper than CO2 in my dinky 5 lb bottle in my keezer, and it takes the same amount of time as the set and forget force carbing (carbing at serving pressure).

 

[Photomanliny]

Thanks for your responses. One more thing.....

The "complete" joy of home brewing says to add 1/3 cup primimg sugar to a 5 gallon keg (batch). I thnk this makes sense.

I'm just wondering of you add the priming sugar directly to the beer or if you boil it in a certain amount of water first?

Thanks in advance again.

 

[jsweet]

Thanks for your responses. One more thing.....

The "complete" joy of home brewing says to add 1/3 cup primimg sugar to a 5 gallon keg (batch). I thnk this makes sense.

I'm just wondering of you add the priming sugar directly to the beer or if you boil it in a certain amount of water first?

Thanks in advance again.

Yes, boil it in a cup or two of water, put that solution in your bottling bucket, and then rack on top of that. If done right, most (but not all) people find that this adequately mixes the sugar. If you don't get adequate mixing, you will get uneven carbonation and possibly even bottle bombs. Some people stir as well, though you potentially risk oxidizing the beer if you do that (though the risk may be overblown).

I am pretty sure Joy of Homebrewing says 2/3 cup of corn sugar for a 5-gal batch?

 

[Photomanliny]

Thanks jsweet

Actually page 321 of the 3rd edition says to use 1/3 cup per every 5 gallons. It's then reiterated on page 326. They do recommend 3/4 cup when bottling, but they that excessive foaming will occur with that amount in a 5 gallon keg. Perhaps there is more (or less) head room in a keg which alter the amounts?

I just wasn't sure if I should boil it in water or just drop it into the beer or empty keg without any water.

Do you think that once I blow off the air with CO2 that I should then shake the keg to mix in the sugar? Once there is no air the oxidation problem should not exist. Or, will the yeast just "do their thing" and find the nutrients in the priming sugar and get me where I want to go?

Thanks again.

 

[rycov]

they should be able to do they're job with out you shaking it. but if it makes you feel good, do it. it won't hurt the beer since you purge the head space.

 

[bigirishape]

Is there any benefit to adding priming sugar to the keg before carbing? Is it necessary? advised? beneficial? harmful?

Is it an either/or situation... You either add the priming sugar to the keg and let it sit w/o CO2, OR you leave out the sugar and just carb it with CO2?

 

[Photomanliny]

bigirishape,

I am going to naturally carnonate the beer in the keg rather than force carbonate it. The only reason I am adding a small amount of CO2 is to take any air (oxygen) out of the air space (above the beer) in the keg and replace it with CO2 thus reducing the chance of oxidation. I will allow the yeast to carbonate my beer rather than the tank. I have force carbonated before.

I am doing this for a few reasons:

1. It's a traditional english ale....which are usually naturally carbonated anyway
2. It's an experiment
3. I will be out of town for 8 days, and since I cannot drink the beer until I return anyway, why not utilize the time?

I just wasn't sure if I just dropped the sugar in and added the beer or boiled the sugar in water first. When I bottle condition I use Cooper Drops so I am new to this.

 

[rycov]

@ bigirishape. its usually one or the other. its good if you dont have room in the keggerater, or if you just feel like it. the reasons photomanliny listed are common resons. or if you used a kit it comes with priming sugar anyway, why not use it. if you used the priming sugar and it wasn't enough carbonation for you, then you would use some force carbing too. so it could be both, but its usually one or the other

 

[tesilential]

bigirishape,

I am going to naturally carnonate the beer in the keg rather than force carbonate it. The only reason I am adding a small amount of CO2 is to take any air (oxygen) out of the air space (above the beer) in the keg and replace it with CO2 thus reducing the chance of oxidation. I will allow the yeast to carbonate my beer rather than the tank. I have force carbonated before.

I am doing this for a few reasons:

1. It's a traditional english ale....which are usually naturally carbonated anyway
2. It's an experiment
3. I will be out of town for 8 days, and since I cannot drink the beer until I return anyway, why not utilize the time?

I just wasn't sure if I just dropped the sugar in and added the beer or boiled the sugar in water first. When I bottle condition I use Cooper Drops so I am new to this.

I've heard naturally carbing kegs significantly increases the amount of trub/sediment in the keg. Have you found this to be true?

 

[cyclonite]

No, it does not significantly increase trub in the keg. It does produce a little more yeast in the keg, but it washes out in the first half pint, along with anything else that made it into the keg. I always discard the first pour anyway to get anything in the keg out and also because I have sanitizer in the line still at that point.

I love naturally carbing! This also allows you to have a good pipeline going too, without having to burst carb.

 

[cyclonite]

bigirishape,

I am going to naturally carnonate the beer in the keg rather than force carbonate it. The only reason I am adding a small amount of CO2 is to take any air (oxygen) out of the air space (above the beer) in the keg and replace it with CO2 thus reducing the chance of oxidation. I will allow the yeast to carbonate my beer rather than the tank. I have force carbonated before.

I am doing this for a few reasons:

1. It's a traditional english ale....which are usually naturally carbonated anyway
2. It's an experiment
3. I will be out of town for 8 days, and since I cannot drink the beer until I return anyway, why not utilize the time?

I just wasn't sure if I just dropped the sugar in and added the beer or boiled the sugar in water first. When I bottle condition I use Cooper Drops so I am new to this.

I always boil water for 10 min, add the sugar, and let it simmer for about 5-10 minutes to make sure it is sanitized/sterile. Then, cool it and dump it into the keg, then rack on top of it. I use about half the amount that I use when bottling (~2.5 oz). This gives good carbonation with no foaming issues. And always purge with CO2 a couple of times to make sure there is no oxygen in the headspace.