Question RE Immersion Chilling and Whirlpooling

[Atlmustang]

So...I have seen many threads on this using the search function, but can't really find the one to answer my question.

I use an immersion chiller to cool my wort. It takes anywhere from 40-50 minutes to cool it down just letting it run with cool water for the first half and ice water for the second half. Not really the results I was looking for timing and efficiency wise as opposed to the ice bath.

I know in order to increase efficiency, you want to get the wort moving around the coils, rather than just letting the chiller sit in the kettle as I currently do. Why do I just let it sit there? I am concerned about screwing up the trub that has settled at the bottom and a cold break to help protein columns settle. I have tried stirring before, but very gently so as to not disturb the trub greatly. Should that be a concern? Can I not stir vigorously, or use a paddle and drill with a lower setting to avoid any hot aeration (whether real or not), and just count on the trub settling at the bottom after a few minutes after cool temp is reached? The whole moving trub around and messing up a cold break has me tentative. Perhaps I am misinformed on my understanding of a cold break and I am putting too much worry into it.

Or what it I stir while cooling then do a full whirlpool after cooled down...won't that help get everything into the center and allow me to pull clearish wort from the side regardless of a cold break?

Someone please tell me to stir away and get that wort cooled down quickly!

 

[Roland_deschain]

I stir while it's cooling with my IC and then do a whirlpool to let the trub settle. It works for me.

 

[Atlmustang]

Thanks @rolanddeschain

 

[Jtk78]

I am able to move the hot wort around with the chiller and homemade hop spider still in. I am only trying to move it though, i do not splash it about. I also use a bazooka screen on my valve, so whatever gets in the fermenter gets in.

I think moving the wort around in any way available will greatly help your cooling time. I have a pre-chiller coil sitting in a cooler of ice. I have not yet pumped the ice water through the chiller, though i may try at some point. I'm in the low 70s in 20-25 mins.

 

[unviewtiful]

I use a JaDeD Hydra and I can get my 10 gallon batches from boiling to below 70 F in less than 15 minutes. And my system is inefficient in a few areas, so it could theoretically be even faster. I live in a warm area, so groundwater can get to 80 F or higher in the summer, but I use about 40 lbs of ice for each batch. I go from my hose to a 25 ft copper pre-chiller (it has a small ID, which restricts flow a bit unfortunately) sitting in an ice bath to the Hydra, then a short outlet hose. I keep the Hydra and pre-chiller moving at all times.

The key aspects of quick chilling are:

• You want as large a temperature differential between the wort and chilling water as possible. I use groundwater to get below 120ish, but that's just because I have limited ice. If you have an unlimited supply of ice/cold water, you will chill faster.
• Maximize flow rate by eliminating restriction in the lines as much as possible. You want the supply hose as short as possible, and remove any fittings from the hoses. Less restriction means higher flow rate, resulting in faster chilling. Always crank the hose to full blast.
• Keep everything moving. If everything sits still while chilling, the wort right around the chiller coils get cold pretty quickly, while the rest of the wort stays hot. Liquid is a rather poor conductor of heat, so it will take FOREVER to chill without moving the wort somehow (stir, pump-driven whirlpool, move the chiller up and down). By keeping things moving, the whole kettle will be roughly the same temperature throughout.
• Maximize contact surface area between hot wort and the cold chiller. Smaller diameter tubing had a greater surface area to volume ratio, but also has more restriction. I think the balance is somewhere around 3/8" OD tubing. The Hydra breaks the flow into three separate 25' coils with 1/4" OD tubing. This works perfectly because it gets the hot water out of the chiller as quickly as possible while increasing the cold surface area.

Now this is just for the most time-efficient chilling, so it uses quite a bit of water. If you want to minimize water usage, you can slow down the flow rate to the point where the water coming out of the chiller is the same temperature as the wort. That ensures you draw as much heat out of the wort per unit water as possible.

 

[mongoose33]

That Hydra is stunning; I can get a 5.5-gallon batch from boiling to 70 degrees in 4 minutes. Not kidding.

That'll change a bit as the temp of the water warms through the summer, but still a huge advancement over my former chiller.

Unviewtiful's explanations above are terrific; they apply to all chillers, not just the Hydra. You want water moving through the chiller as fast as you can manage, AND you want to move either the chiller or the wort to maintain contact between hot/warm wort and the chiller.

I used to swish my chiller in the kettle--easier than stirring. Even with relatively warm groundwater I still could get a 5.5-gallon batch down to the low 70s in under 15 minutes--and that was in the worst of conditions. That was using a Silver Serpent from Northern Brewer.

My Hydra can't be swished--not enough room--so I stick a SS spoon in the middle and swish and stir back and forth with that. If you do not swish or stir, your chiller will take "X" times longer to chill than if you do.

High water flow rate, and swishing/stirring. That's the key to fastest chilling with whatever equipment/conditions you have.

 

[TomVA]

I cool in a sink full of ice water with almost continuous gentle stirring. After hitting room temperature (about 30 minutes) I let it sit for about 10 minutes to allow the trub to settle, then take my OG sample from the clear wort at the top. My ales come out quite clear without cold crashing or fining.

TomVA

 

[TomVA]

I cool in a sink full of ice water with almost continuous gentle stirring. After hitting room temperature (about 30 minutes) I let it sit for about 10 minutes to allow the trub to settle, then take my OG sample from the clear wort at the top. My ales come out quite clear without cold crashing or gelatin.

TomVA

 

[TomVA]

Sorry for the duplicate post. How do you edit a post? Hitting the edit button just makes the post disappear.

 

[BeerAddikt]

My process is as follows: I start whirlpooling as soon as I turn on the immersion chiller. I'm not looking for trub to settle at this point, just circulating my wort around the coils to increase cooling efficiency. Once I've reached pitching temps +/- 1 degree I remove my immersion chiller and continue to let the pump whirlpool which ensures I get a nice trub cone. After a few minutes (about 5) I turn off my pump, let the whirlpool settle and transfer to fermenter. I also use a dip tube in my kettle to limit trub intake.

I'm able to cool 5-6 gallons from boiling to 66F in about 20 minutes, but I use a submersible pump in an ice bath (10 lbs of ice) connected to my immersion chiller and circulate for the last 10 minutes of cooling to increase thermal transfer as well as waste less water.

And I end up with a nice and tidy cone of trub in my kettle that is something to behold. An added benefit to my method is any late or flame out hop additions get a flavor boost from the 20+ minutes of whirlpooling.

 

[apl_seed]

What makes the hydra that much more efficient? I can chill from boiling to 70 in about 10 to 12 minutes using a homemade 40 ft chiller using half inch copper.

 

[Morrey]

What makes the hydra that much more efficient? I can chill from boiling to 70 in about 10 to 12 minutes using a homemade 40 ft chiller using half inch copper.

Sounds like the Hydra won't be of great benefit to you with your kind of results. Your homemade IC's efficiency is largely due to the high volume of cooling water thru a 1/2" copper coil.

The Hydra starts off with a large diameter copper line then splits into 3 separate smaller diameter coils sort of stacked on each other. The result is a lot of cooling surface area. But how much better yours is or theirs is compared to yours is hard to say w/o a side by side test. Like Mongoose33 says, the Hydra is a cooling machine for sure. But no matter what, when the source cooling water hits 80F in the summer, ice bath time cometh.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I just manually whirlpool while it's chilling. My wishlist includes a new kettle and pump so I can recirculate that way for the whirlpool.

 

[apl_seed]

Thanks Morrey. I was curious to find out if I could make mine better somehow. I got cold well water so that helps tremendously and the coils aren't stacked tight so I get the wort touching the whole coil.

 

[Morrey]

Thanks Morrey. I was curious to find out if I could make mine better somehow. I got cold well water so that helps tremendously and the coils aren't stacked tight so I get the wort touching the whole coil.

Do you or have you tried a whirlpool of hot wort around the chiller coils?

I just added a WP arm in my kettle mainly for hop WPs, but the vortex action will aide cooling efficiency with the IC in place as well. Seems hot wort forms a sort of insulating barrier around the coil if there is no fluid movement. I have felt the exhaust water from the IC, then my wife stirred the wort....the exhaust cooling water immediately felt much warmer. I just added my WP arm last week so I am anxious to try it for several benefits it potentially offers.

 

[apl_seed]

Yea I do stir. I got a slotted lid for my BK so I put my chiller in with a stainless spoon, cover them up and stir every couple minutes. When I hit a couple degrees above pitch temp I remove the coil, give it a bit of a stir and let it sit for 30-40 minutes. Everything settles out nicely. I use a hop sock so I don't have a lot of hop material left over but I do like to leave the hot break out of the fermenter. Hence the 30-40 minute settling time.

 

[mongoose33]

What makes the hydra that much more efficient? I can chill from boiling to 70 in about 10 to 12 minutes using a homemade 40 ft chiller using half inch copper.

You have more surface area than a 1/4" or 3/8" copper tube. If you're running the water at full blast, I'm not surprised you're getting those kinds of results. If you're happy with the results, that's all that matters.

The Hydra has more surface area yet, and given the smaller diameter of the tubing, more heat transfer.

I switched to the Hydra in part because late last summer and into fall, I was at 15 minutes or more to chill a batch, and that was with all the swishing and such. I want to get my brew day down to as little time as is feasible, and the Hydra helps with that. And if I ever go to 10-gallon batches, I have a chiller that can handle it.

 

[Atlmustang]

Thank you for everyone's input! I will stir away and not worry about the trub not settling after it's cooled down. I should have posted this about 15 batches ago!

 

[mongoose33]

Thank you for everyone's input! I will stir away and not worry about the trub not settling after it's cooled down. I should have posted this about 15 batches ago!

FWIW, I toss all the stuff from the boil in my fermenter, trub and all. if you're not familiar w/ the Brulosophy exbeeriments examining this, try here:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/

and

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

Ever since I read those last year, I've just been dumping in what dumps in, w/ no concern for filtering it out. Beer tastes great!

 

[ircbrewing]

Thanks, @mongoose33. I'm not the OP, but that confirms it for me. I have been focusing too much on perceived myths again rather than relaxing and just brewing. Unnecessarily complicating the beer process. I have been frustrated with trub loss...well no more! Trub is going into the bucket from now on and I will not unnecessarily lose a single drop of precious wort in my kettle.