Question on efficiency and my all grain equipment. What am I doing wrong?

[Eddiebosox]

I am an all grain brewer using a converted igloo cooler with a DIY stainless steel braided weave hose as a filter. I use beersmith for my brewday software and I am just getting awful, awful, efficiency. I have narrowed in down to a combination of two things. I don’t think I am getting enough wort from my braided hose filter setup, and I think the water additions are off in my beersmith. For some reason I always seem to be getting way too much volume leftover at the end of my boil. I first thought it was because the presets in beersmith that include a ten gallon igloo cooler does not have a matching 9 gallon brewpot (which is what I have). They only pair it with either a 7.5 or a 12 gallon brewpot. However, from looking at the numbers, it seems it doesn’t matter the size of the brewpot. So perhaps my evaporation rate is low?

For instance, my latest imperial IPA had a calculated five gallons of 1.083 OG assuming a 75% efficiency, and I ended up with 5.5 Gallons of 1.054. That is just awful. I am thinking of buying a false bottom I hopes that would help.

 

[brycelarson]

How much grain in that imperial IPA?

 

[user 98891]

I wouldn't think it's the braid. Are you getting the correct target volume pre-boil? Also, are you adjusting your gravity readings for temp?

I use a braid and a 10 gallon cooler. I found my biggest problems were not stirring the mash enough during the sparge and not using a good crush on my grains. Last weekend I did my first imperial IPA and the OG was estimated at 1.088 and I got 1.086, but it was also my first 90 minute boil and I didn't boil off quite enough.

 

[Yooper]

Are you fly (continous) sparging, or batch sparging?

I assume batch sparging, since you have a braid. If so, the fix is easy. When you draw out your first runnings, measure them. Then whatever you need for the preboil volume, use for sparge water. What I mean is this- say you get 3.75 out of the mash for the first runnings and your desired boil volume is 7 gallons. Ignore whatever Beersmith says (tweak it later) and use 3.25 gallons for the sparge. That's an easy way to hit your volume, without getting too much wort and 'diluting' the OG.

 

[brewinitup]

As far as your BS software settings, you can adjust your target boil volumes. It's entirely possible that your evap rate is incorrect. I know I had to do some playing around with the numbers until I got it right. The software comes with a boil off tool that can help you figure out your evap rate.

When it comes to your efficiency, if we assume that your mash/sparge temps/ph and grain crush are correct, then perhaps it's the duration of the mashing step. On my first AG batch, I did the standard 60 min mash and came out with an efficiency of ~64%. I picked up an iodine test bottle to check for starches still in the mash. I found that there have been times where it can take up to 90 mins. In those instances my efficiency jumped to ~82%

 

[Eddiebosox]

How much grain in that imperial IPA?

12 pounds 2 row, 2 pounds Vienna, 2 pounds crystal 60. I upped the mash to about 20 quarts of water to compensate.

 

[Eddiebosox]

I wouldn't think it's the braid. Are you getting the correct target volume pre-boil? Also, are you adjusting your gravity readings for temp?

I use a braid and a 10 gallon cooler. I found my biggest problems were not stirring the mash enough during the sparge and not using a good crush on my grains. Last weekend I did my first imperial IPA and the OG was estimated at 1.088 and I got 1.086, but it was also my first 90 minute boil and I didn't boil off quite enough.

adjusted for temp, and i use the grain crush that comes with it (I order from brewmasters warehouse). I could tell from the beginning of the boil i had too much water, so it may be a combination of a slow boil off rate and wrong water amounts.

 

[RUNningonbrew]

You did adjust for temp? 1.054 around 180 degree is close to 1.08

 

[Eddiebosox]

As far as your BS software settings, you can adjust your target boil volumes. It's entirely possible that your evap rate is incorrect. I know I had to do some playing around with the numbers until I got it right. The software comes with a boil off tool that can help you figure out your evap rate.

When it comes to your efficiency, if we assume that your mash/sparge temps/ph and grain crush are correct, then perhaps it's the duration of the mashing step. On my first AG batch, I did the standard 60 min mash and came out with an efficiency of ~64%. I picked up an iodine test bottle to check for starches still in the mash. I found that there have been times where it can take up to 90 mins. In those instances my efficiency jumped to ~82%

That could be it. DO higher OG's need longer mash times? How long is too long? I hear anything after 90 minutes and you can extract tannins.

 

[Eddiebosox]

You did adjust for temp? 1.054 around 180 degree is close to 1.08

No, I mean i adjusted after I used my wort chiller to cool the final wort. it was about 90 degrees and I adjusted the math to get a 1.054.

 

[brewinitup]

That could be it. DO higher OG's need longer mash times? How long is too long? I hear anything after 90 minutes and you can extract tannins.

Honestly, having never brewed a higher gravity beer, I couldn't tell you what the specific requirements are on mash times. All I know is that when I mash, I keep it in the tun until my iodine test comes out with no starch.

As far as tannin extraction, there are various things will cause it. The primary culprits are mash/sparge water at too high a temperature or too high pH. I've sometimes mashed beyond 90 mins without any tannin flavoring in the end product.

 

[LoneWolfPR]

Mash time shouldn't matter. Honestly, I'd make darn sure you're stirring your mash up enough so you're not getting any doughballs first. Related to this, are you adding your water to your tun first then grain or vice-versa. If you stir you grain into already added water it allows you to minimize doughballs easily. You could be getting channeling in your tun when you sparge as well. I'm not really sure how to prevent that though if that's your problem. I would say do a preboil gravity reading too just to be sure.

 

[user 98891]

Mash time shouldn't matter. Honestly, I'd make darn sure you're stirring your mash up enough so you're not getting any doughballs first. Related to this, are you adding your water to your tun first then grain or vice-versa. If you stir you grain into already added water it allows you to minimize doughballs easily. You could be getting channeling in your tun when you sparge as well. I'm not really sure how to prevent that though if that's your problem. I would say do a preboil gravity reading too just to be sure.

I don't think you can get channeling with a batch sparge because you are stirring each sparge to dissolve the sugars into the water instead of rinsing the grain bed.

 

[Saxomophone]

I started having water volumes when I switched to using software. I finally figured out that it had a large amount of "equipment loss" figured in.

 

[LoneWolfPR]

I don't think you can get channeling with a batch sparge because you are stirring each sparge to dissolve the sugars into the water instead of rinsing the grain bed.

Ah. I forgot he was batch sparging.

 

[tgmartin000]

You need to dial in beersmith to account for all your system losses properly. Your boil off rate, fermenting loss, bottling loss, deadspace, trub, etc. That'll get you closer.

Also how's your crush? Do you stir? I think mash pH also has an effect.

 

[Stauffbier]

Eddiebosox, I'd be willing to bet that your two biggest problems are poor crush and you're using too much water. I personally do what Yooper recommended when it comes to water volume. It also sounds like you have a large amount of volume lost to your MLT. Try to figure out how much you're losing to the MLT and add that to the water volume according to Yoopers method. That should get your pre-boil volume where you want it to be. Also, check your pre-boil gravity next time, and if you have a low gravity combined with too much wort you can boil it down for an extra 30 minutes before you start the 60 minute hop usage boil. That will concentrate the wort more which will increase the OG. Just for the record, you can mash as long as 12 hours with no ill effects as long as the temp doesn't drop below 140F. It's called overnight mashing, and I've done it a few times myself with great results.

 

[Eddiebosox]

Mash time shouldn't matter. Honestly, I'd make darn sure you're stirring your mash up enough so you're not getting any doughballs first. Related to this, are you adding your water to your tun first then grain or vice-versa. If you stir you grain into already added water it allows you to minimize doughballs easily. You could be getting channeling in your tun when you sparge as well. I'm not really sure how to prevent that though if that's your problem. I would say do a preboil gravity reading too just to be sure.

I did that. I batch sparge and restir it pretty vigorously, let it sit a minute, and then runn it off into the brewkettle. I think i am just getting too much water in there. I never did test my boil off rate on my burner, so maybe Ill do that to get more accurate numbers.

 

[Eddiebosox]

Are you fly (continous) sparging, or batch sparging?

I assume batch sparging, since you have a braid. If so, the fix is easy. When you draw out your first runnings, measure them. Then whatever you need for the preboil volume, use for sparge water. What I mean is this- say you get 3.75 out of the mash for the first runnings and your desired boil volume is 7 gallons. Ignore whatever Beersmith says (tweak it later) and use 3.25 gallons for the sparge. That's an easy way to hit your volume, without getting too much wort and 'diluting' the OG.

good idea. it will add time to my brew day since i like to start heating up my sparge water before the end of the mash, but it sounds like this would help. Also, I should be constantly measuring my first runnings on every batch to see if they are consistent. I know I have beersmith assuming deadspace in the cooler, but i usually lean it over to squeeze every drop out, and maybe even that's a factor.

Ultimately i think it was a perfect storm of too much water, bad equipment inputs in my software that caused the gravity to be so far off.

 

[Eddiebosox]

Just for the record, you can mash as long as 12 hours with no ill effects as long as the temp doesn't drop below 140F. It's called overnight mashing, and I've done it a few times myself with great results.

No kidding? I was considering this since i had to pick up a friend at the airport who was then going to help brew. I thought starting the mash and picking him up would save time but i kept reading long mash times can extract tannins and make the beer really astringent.

 

[Bear419]

Had a similar issue when I went AG and used beersmith. Don't use the default boil off, it's doubtful it actually matches your system.

 

[scone]

I had lots of efficiency problems when I first went all grain. They seemed to go away as soon as I started doing mash-out temps properly (bringing the mash to 170F before the first runnings and stirring it up nice and good). Just one anecdote, but it worked for me. This'll be hard to do without actively heating your mash, even if you add boiling water for your first batch sparge... I personally don't mash in my tun because of this... I mash in a boil kettle which I can then actively heat while stirring. Then I dump the whole mess into my mash tun once it's at 170 for the first runnings, and batch sparge with 170F water from there. YMMV.

 

[Eddiebosox]

I had lots of efficiency problems when I first went all grain. They seemed to go away as soon as I started doing mash-out temps properly (bringing the mash to 170F before the first runnings and stirring it up nice and good). Just one anecdote, but it worked for me. This'll be hard to do without actively heating your mash, even if you add boiling water for your first batch sparge... I personally don't mash in my tun because of this... I mash in a boil kettle which I can then actively heat while stirring. Then I dump the whole mess into my mash tun once it's at 170 for the first runnings, and batch sparge with 170F water from there. YMMV.

I have been thinking of getting a nice blichmann to mash in but im worried about holding the temp for an hour in a steel kettle.

 

[Stauffbier]

No kidding? I was considering this since i had to pick up a friend at the airport who was then going to help brew. I thought starting the mash and picking him up would save time but i kept reading long mash times can extract tannins and make the beer really astringent.

Long mash duration won't cause tannin extraction. Tannin extraction is directly related to pH, not time or temp. You can extract tannins rather quickly if the pH is out of whack. There are quite a few people on this forum that do extended mashing with great results (or so they say). The batches I've made using this method came out very good. If you're making a dark beer and you want to mash for and extended period of time then don't add the dark grains until right before you drain your first runnings. Leaving dark grains in the mash for long periods of time can indeed extract astringent flavors. When I make dark beers I usually add the dark grains in the last 5 minutes of the mash, or I cold steep the dark grains over night and add the liquor from that to the boil. Since I started doing this my dark beers improved drastically. You still get the roasty flavor and dark color without any harsh flavors that are usually associated with roasted grains.

 

[scone]

I have been thinking of getting a nice blichmann to mash in but im worried about holding the temp for an hour in a steel kettle.

I wrap my cheapo SS pot in copious towels and blankets. It loses about 4F in an hour.